atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums General General Telephone & Systems Information Emergency Elevator phone using cellular communication?

Hello.

I am trying to get an emergency elevator phone to dial out using cellular form of communication to the elevator monitoring service.

There is a product called Telguard TG-1B which is suppose to allow this.

However the roadblock I am running into is they are saying the phone built into the elevator does not have a digital dialer.

I don't know how its able to communicate to the existing monitoring company now over a traditional phone line however unable to contact the current monitoring company over cellular phone line.

Unless the traditional phone line is setup as a hotline meaning it will automatically dial a programmed number as soon as its activated whereas the cell based line for the telguard is unable to do this?

Is there any solutions you can see for this problem?

Perhaps there is like a 3rd party digital dialer(auto-dialer) that can be placed between the elevator phone and the telguard cell communicator? Is there a product that will do something like this?

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for your help.

What is with this forum? It won't let me edit/add to my post because it said the " edit time has expired"? Is this new?

Anyway, I wanted to add this link to the Telguard device to allow cellular communication.

https://www.telguard.com/home/Products/Commercial/Telguard-for-Elevators-and-Emergency-Phones

Thanks

Nope not new, you have 30 minutes to edit.

I am not 100% sure on this and it might vary state to state but I believe the elevator phones are required to self-dial.

I agree. I think most elevator phones are setup as a hotline extension that auto dials an answering service or dispatch center of some sort.

Looking at your link, I see the Telguard unit is used with a standard emergency phone hotline dialer which is probably already installed in the elevator. The Telguard provides a POTS line for the dialer so it operates same as connected to a land line.


When you push the button what do you hear? With a hotline phone you will hear it dial and if it is connected to a POTS line that's obviously the only way it will work. So in that respect I think they are giving you a line of BS.

The only problem I can see is that many jurisdictions require a dedicated copper POTS line. So then if cable and FiOS are not acceptable I can see where they are coming from with cellular.

-Hal

Before you spend your (or the customer's) money, ask the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction) for guidance.

The best way to deal with a government agent or other self-important authority figure is to ask, diplomatically, to be shown how "the other guys" are doing it. Ask the building inspector who will sign off on the job what method the guy down the street is using that is acceptable. Then follow suit.

Ask the elevator contractor for advice, too. Since they deal with this situation for a living, they will probably have an answer. Maybe not the right answer...

I speak from both sides of the argument, being an electrician AND a code enforcement person.

Thank you for taking the time to look at the link I provided.

I have pushed the button and heard dials.

I do the feeling that I was being BS by these guys but I was not certain. Thanks for the advice.

By the day, does your state( NY I presume) require the copper lines for the elevator phones? I have spoken to the head of the state regulator who told me the new technologies such are wireless are fine as long as they have at least a 4-hour battery backup.

Thanks.

Battery backup time for these life safety systems is speculative, to say the least. Who will monitor them? Who will ensure that the battery backup is capable of providing four hours of support?

We can't get away with these substitutes for phone lines here for elevators or fire alarm systems. Verizon is fighting it, but they still provide copper facilities to new buildings, supposedly just for these purposes. Our local authorities still allow fake phone lines via cable TV companies' EMTA devices though. Truth is, these inspectors have NO idea what they're looking at. It's the honor system at best, until someone gets hurt and the lawyers get involved.

In these parts, any cell phone calls follow the national standard of ten-digit dialing, even for local calls. Is it possible that the embedded dialing equipment is only dialing the call using seven digits? You don't really need a digit-grabber to count the number of digits dialed.

In NY there is no state anything (except taxes). Local fire marshals and building inspectors are the ones who make that call and in all the localities I have worked in they have always required dedicated copper POTS for an elevator phone.

-Hal

What Hal said.

At least here in NY a dedicated, analog, copper POTS line for elevator and fire alarm.

When I did large hospitals, where the switchboard was manned 24/7 we used PBX extensions, but otherwise the inspectors wanted CO Dial tone.

Sam

It would be helpful to know from where the OP is installing this. In PA, you MUST have a copper dedicated phone line. A lot of places try and get away with using a shared line, but if the elevator inspector detects it, he will demand the line be dedicated. We, at one time, used a device made by Viking that allowed two elevators to share one line and, to my surprise, was OK with the inspector. Recently, I had to provide a line for a new elevator and the elevator inspector made me walk him to the Demarc to prove there was nothing else connected to the line.

Rcaman

How is this handled in areas that are strictly Fios or other LEC fiber? I know in many cases the copper plant is still there, but I know I've seen some Fios areas in Massachusetts, for example, where I didn't see ANY copper left on the poles. Do they make exceptions for a Fios install if there's just no copper to be had? Do they make the ONT battery backup part of the yearly elevator inspection? This must really stick in the craw of providers like VZ who are trying to run away from copper.

Good question, I haven't run into that yet here. I remember that Cablevision has a disclaimer of sorts saying basically that their phone service can be used for alarm reporting but don't rely on it and they are not responsible if you do. I know that my service goes down for maybe 10 minutes at a time every once and awhile, didn't check but I suspect that they are rebooting my modem. Probably why security systems now use cellular as a backup. Fire systems require two dedicated copper lines, primary and secondary also.

-Hal

In Central PA it is a required stand alone line. Doesn't matter what way it was delivered, Cable, Fios, copper, etc., it just has to be it's own dedicated line. And the inspector we had did the same as Rcaman's did a little while back.. I had to take him to the cable company demarc an show him that the elevator was the only connection on the line.

And how would he know? WE couldn't be sure without some testing. I have phone lines that come from the terminal in the basement of a building and cross connect in three or four telephone closets on each floor before it gets to the elevator machinery room on the roof.

So what am I supposed to do, point to some binding posts in a 500 pair terminal that cross connects to a wall full of 66 blocks and say "yup, there it is"?

-Hal

Go to the elevator dial the TSP. Go yo the Aerial/Underground dial the TSP. If the number reports the same, it's good. What happens between points A and B is another matter.

The state is Utah and I have already cleared it with the regulators.

Centurylink said they have a product called a measured line designed for low use such as elevator phones,security&fire alarms in which you pay a low amount like $23 a month then $.08 cents a minute for ALL calls(even local, toll free, etc...)

However, after signing up for the service the bill came in higher than before. They said it was not allowed in the state, however, I can't find any regulatory agency who will backup the information. I think it may be more like they are not being forced to do it so they refuse to provide the less expensive service.

I'm under the impression the line is identical to a regular pots line except its a lower cost if your usage is low.

In any event, it will be a good day when I can cancel the centurylink lines.

Thanks.

What is the point in having 2 copper lines from the same company when most things that will bring down line #1 will also bring down line #2. They are probably traveling the same path to the same equipment in the same central office.

I have 2 phone lines in my house and them either both work or both don't work.

I've not found that to be true except with the cable companies or something like FiOS. Of course there is always the possibility of things going wrong between the terminal and your house with a copper plant. But other than that the chances are, barring a catastrophic failure, of more than one pair developing a problem at a time are mitigated because they don't all travel the same route.

-Hal

The AHJ allowed a us to install a key system analog telephone on the elevator because the hospice center had emergency generator back-up.

It's all up to AHJ.

Betcha they had someone at the desk 24/7 also.

-Hal

Hal,

Just to clarify, the new job I wrote about is in a new building. The Demarc is in the telephone room. A conduit was placed from the elevator equipment room to the telephone room. There was only one cross connect and that was from the first 100 pair building protector to the 4 pair going to the elevator equipment room. There are 3 one hundred pair protectors but only 6 pairs are used to provide alarm, elevator and some emergency radio loops. The rest of the demarc is FiOS. I asked the inspector if FiOS was an acceptable dial tone pair and his response was "If it comes to the elevator equipment room on copper, that's fine. The FiOS service is acceptable.

Rcaman

"If it comes to the elevator equipment room on copper, that's fine. The FiOS service is acceptable."

So sad that these inspectors have their heads up their manholes. Regardless of the source, whether it be down the road at the CO or a few feet away from a cell adapter, how the F... else would a POTS line get to a POTS phone? String? Sheesh.

A couple of weeks ago a school called me. The elevator phone comes through their IPO on an analog station. The elevator company replaced the phone. The inspector tested it NDT.
I get the call check dialtone from the IPO through. Where did it fail? The elevator company never tied the phone to the line. I gotta retire to a place no phone no Data, just fly fishing.

I have a similar story. School calls me and says that if they don't answer a call within three rings it gets disconnected. I tell them I'm going to call and don't pick it up. Sure enough after about three rings something picks up the line and I hear kids laughing and talking. Long story short the elevator company connected their elevator phone (that never was connected for years) to the nearest dialtone- a 66 block in the machine room, clips 1&2 which just happened to be T&R for extension 10 on their Partner system. So the extension would ring and the elevator phone was programmed to pick up on the third ring. Fortunately I happened to call when the elevator was full of kids or it would have taken a lot longer to figure that one out.

-Hal

This will make you laugh.

We installed a telephone system into a mental health clinic. Verizon provided a POTS line, on copper, for the elevator. The elevator company installed their hands free elevator phone and tested it. Everything worked. This little piece of "pure gold" was relayed to me via the maintenance man who has nicknamed the Administrator "Janet from another planet."

Several weeks later, we get a call that something is wrong with the elevator phone. The "Administrator" stepped into the elevator and said she heard "Hello, Hello....is anyone there?" She immediately got off the elevator and called several of her "minions" to the elevator. She said "I think the elevator is haunted. I hear voices when I was on the elevator." So they all pile on the elevator and ride the thing for about 15 minutes. No voices.

A few days later, the Administrator got on the elevator and she heard "Hello...hello....can you hear me?" She got off the elevator, told the minions "There is definitely something up with this elevator." They all pile on, again, and ride the elevator for another 15 or 20 minutes, calling out to the "voice" to speak to them. Silence.

Frustrated, the Administrator called the main clinic and demanded that something be done.

Of course, I laughed and laughed and laughed. The poor girl on the other end was confused. "What's so funny?" she asked. I said, the phone number to that elevator was one previously used by someone else. It's obvious that someone who was used to calling the number was calling. The phone rang three times and then went hands free. The caller heard the Administrator get into the elevator and began saying Hello. "The elevator is not haunted," I said.

I figured that was settled and forgot about it. A month or two later, I got a call from the same girl at the main clinic. "The ghosts are back" she said. "They are hearing voices again." "This time, two of them heard it and they are convinced the elevator is haunted. We have to do something." she said.

So, I went to the clinic, got the Administrator and as many of her minions as would fit on the elevator and we took a ride. I was in the very back of the elevator, out of direct sight of the Administrator. I got out my cell phone and dialed the elevator number. Three rings and then silence. "What was that noise?" she said. I then spoke and said "This is GOD speaking." Everyone on the elevator broke out in laughter EXCEPT the Administrator who said "The other voice was different. I know this elevator is haunted!" With that, she got off and has never used the elevator since.

Just goes to prove, the more education and degrees one gets, the dumber they become. In that place, one can't tell the keepers from the inmates. Talk about stupid.

Rcaman

I'm sure collectively we have a pile. In the '80's the company I worked for did a McMansion. The dude was loaded, as we are running cable through the basement we notice a pentagram painted on the floor. After they move in she says the phone rings every morning at 6:30 The first time I get there at 6:35 it had happened already and I missed it. The next morning I get there on time it goes off sounds just like a Toshiba ring tone. I have her empty the kitchen cabinets, travel alarm clock.

Too funny

"...most things that will bring down line #1 will also bring down line #2. They are probably traveling the same path to the same equipment in the same central office."

Let me try to say this in the gentlest and kindest way possible...

"WRONG"

If that were the case, then my final 10 years performing cable maintenance were a big waste of time and a million dollars of the company's money.

Imagine if the phone company had realized that all the lines take the same "path" to the CO. They could have eliminated all those cables, manholes, poles, splice cases, terminals, LARP circuits, air supplies, and massive MDF's.

LOL...Hit a nerve there, Arthur?

Rcaman

It's a struggle to remain civil.