Today, someone asked me if I could extend a 'DS3' from their buildings network interface. This is a circuit for a cellular service provider. Is this the same thing as a T3? And furthermore, how is the wiring for a T3 different from that of a T1? I was told a 'DS3' is a four-wire circuit. Is it the same as T1 (pins 1/2 and 4/5)?

The only DS3's I have encountered around here have been coax cable. My experience with these may be limited, so don't count on my being 100% correct here. We were hired by a national service company to extend one and couldn't do it because we didn't have the correct cable and termination tooling.

Yes it's the same as a T3. If copper it would be 4wire, just as a T1 is 4wire on copper. It's the carrier signal that's different. Just in case you didn't know there are 28 T1's on a T3. I'm not sure about pin out, I've only seen hard wired. I would think it would be like any other modular connection though.

Should have phrased it a T3 can carry 28 T1's

Bill
you mean 28 T1's on a DS3 right?
T3 is 3 T's (3 x 1.54)

Guess it's my old AT&T terminology. To me a T3 is the system, DS3 is the jack on the T3. The way I understand DS3 means the same as T3. I've never heard the term T3 used as 3 T1's, but there's lots of terms I've learned on this board different from what was used by AT&T. When we lost a T3 carrying T1's we lost 28 T1's. Now there was an older carrier that was T2 or DS2, I don't remember how many T's it carried. :confused:

Think of it like this. The "T" in T1 or T3 is transport, the physical layer. The "DS" in DS1 or DS3 is digital signaling. "T" is the water hose, and "DS" is the water flowing through it. In the industry, the terms are commonly used interchangeably.

So far as I know, DS3's ride coax only. I don't believe it's possible to extend a DS3 over twisted pair.

DS2 is valid, although you'll never see it. It is used inside multiplexers only. It's 4 DS1's. Seven DS2's make up a DS3.

I have never messed with a T3 (DS3) on cust prem. So I bow to Kyle's expertise. I knew that ol' transport thing Kyle, didn't even enter my mind. Thanks for the help.

Forgot to mention, I do know there were 4 T1's on a low speed card, but never heard it call T2.

Kyle is nails on...
DS3=Digital Signal level 3 (logical) = T3 Transmission level 3 or Technology level 3 (physical) depending on who you speak with.
A DS3 is also the equivalent of a STS1 Less the SONET over head and an STS1 (synchronous transmission signal)is the electrical equivalent of an OC1(optical carrier).

DS2= 4 DS1's. And I too, have only seen them on "low speed cards" in an M13 mux. They are pretty much only a logical entity. That’s probably why I don’t recall ever hearing them referred to as T2’s either.

As far as extending it, you need to use coax cable with BNC's (Bayonet Neil Connectors) only. Do not try to use "F-type" connectors that you would use for cable TV. However, RG6 cable should do just fine (two runs, one transmit the other receive). When extending it don't forget to check the line build out or you may run bit errors even if the cable is okay. You are better to over drive the signal a little, if in doubt.
Good luck! DS3’s are actually very easy to work with. Even easier if you have the proper tools and test equipment.

PS.
Don’t forget, 672 DS0’s ride a DS3 (24-channels on a DS1 times 28 DS1’s on a DS3=672 DS0’s (lines)). So, don’t unplug it at 4PM when everybody is making their last calls of the day or you’ll make lots of enemies.

Turns out the building has a contract with a company for riser management and installations. Oh well, thanks for the info - good to know anyways.

A Building LEC,, heard about them, never seen one.

The DS3 Express is available from Pulsecom (www.pulse.com). The unit permits DS3 transport over 4 twisted pairs - they be indoor pairs (like Cat 3) our outdoor cable: the units include integral lightning surge protection. Range is up to 1 mile with a repeater, or half a mile without a repeater.

Alright I'm stumped on this one~~~~~~

Sprint brought in fiber off the SONET Ring to the MPOE to the DS3 MUX and broke it back out via copper to their protector terminal for DMARC. The termination block is four wire 66 type punch down for the individual Voice & Data provisioned T1 circuits. NO SMART JACKS as we are accustomed too. So far have four data circuits turned up and bonded all four in router. I have built a patch cable for each circuit and terminated on LEC'S block and going straight thru to pins 1,2 & 4,5 of CPE . Plug into router and it greens up with rock and high rolling bandwidth.

Now here is the million dollar question until next week when my 5 Voice PRI circuits are turned up:

How are the voice PRI circuits going to function without the Smart Jack?? Voice PRI 's are going to Comdial MP5 Hub. I know you can't have two different type of termination scenarios, i.e. the already installed data and attempt to smart jack the voice side out of the DS3 MUX. Is there something new here we are not aware of technology wise on fiber??

Everyone I have talked too has never seen or heard of any of this.

I must not be understanding your question correctly . Because I would terminate them the same way you did with the data circuits , no smarts jacks required .

I think what I'm hearing is he want the T1 jack to plug into his T1 card in the system. If there are no T1 output jacks on the back of the DS3 MUX I'm not sure how he would do it.

Are they providing you with 5 individual PRI'S off the DS3 ? That is how we normally receive ours , then SBC terminates and lables them at the copper demark either wire wrap or punch down . We then use 2 25 pr cat5 cables 1 for transmit and 1 for receive and terminate our end to a patch panel to connect to our equipment . But 1 picture is worth 1 thousand words . So I must not being seeing your setup correctly .

Bill you captured all points. The protector terminal has 28 columns (vertically) with 4 pins horizonitally making up the 28 circuits for the DS3. Current working 4 data circuits are first four rows. Voice PRI's are provisioned on rows 11 thru 15 but not turned up at this time. Next week I'm setting the MP5 Hub rack and will call for turn up and testing. Again Bill you were correct in patching by plugging directly into 5 separate TI-PRI circuit cards on the switch. So far I'm not understanding the logic or practicality of being able to hard wire from the MUX for data and voice both when I've always only known voice needing the Smart Jack between the DS3 and MP5 switch. No one yet has been able to say yes Harley the smart jack circuits have been incorporated within the DS3 MUX. Next week tells it all. Thought maybe Mezzoni would step up to the plate on this by now, but he must still be looking for his Easter Eggs that "tricky rabbit" hid.

Well the smart Jack is just to condition the T-1 where as the DS3 (T3) is conditioned through the mux so that's no big deal. So if your saying all T-1's are brought out on pins all you have to do is punch down or wrap the pin end than wire yourself a mod jack for your system cards. I'm ASSUMING..yep I know what that does, since you say there are 28 columns that's the 28 T1's on the T3

After typing this and re-reading your post, I think you already know most of this.

One more thing..Harley the conditioning that was provided by the smart jack for each T-1 is now provided in the T3 MUX...

I think in my first post on this I stated no smart required .

Thanks

Just like you said DrJ..Just wasn't listening. :toast:

Okay guys here is the rest of the story as Paul Harvey would say:

The DS3 does not require Smart Jacks to condition the voice or data circuits as I'm spoiled on, so yes OBTW now I can applaud your initial post and agree with ya man. The circuits are virtually conditioned within this DS3 which eliminates the physical presence of Smart Jacks. All this I was unaware of until spending 3 hours online with Sprint A & S and SSO. I was trying to bring up my five PRI voice circuits today with no success because they were provisioned incorrectly, even providing all info. Provisioned for NI1 instead of NI2 which is required for the Comdial Switch.

Unaware of all this is what prompted my posting prior to starting turn up of the voice PRI circuits. So Bill and OBTW you were the only knowledgeable responses and thanks for your input. I was trying to obtain and understand the no Smart Jack engineering prior to today.

Bill I'm going to probably be coming thru Chadron again this summer. Last June I didn't stop because we were trying to out run a storm that had been beating down on us all the way from Sturgis. The storm finally let loose on us just before Dalton and only had 18 miles yet to Sidney. I bought a new bike on April Fools so I'm anxious to put some highway against the rubber.

HARLEYMAN

FYI info for ya…

NCTE= Network Channel Terminating Equipment (commonly call a SmartJack whether it is or not) generally speaking, is not used for anything on the CPE side of the demarc…. Meaning it will have no effect on your install of CPE equipment one way or another.


Speaking as a Telco circuit engineer those SmartJacks are placed (or sometimes not placed) at the customer premise for several reasons.
* Remote Maintenance: NCTE’s are loopable devices that can be used to trouble shoot circuit trouble without rolling a truck.
* Signal Enhancement: As the length of cooper loops get longer, sometimes condition is required.
* Hybrid Devices: Many 4-wire (full duplex) digital services can be delivered via ONE PAIR of wires due to these SmartJacks... The terminating devices can convert the signal back over to 4-wire at the demarc. Thus saving a pair for the local provider.

So technically speaking the T3 MUX is not really conditioning the signal for you… Having the MUX there on-site is much more like moving the C.O. really, really close to you where conditioning and/or copper pair conservation is not a necessity.

So moral of the story is… Don’t get hung up not going forward with an install just ‘case there’s no NCTE (SmartJack.)

Thanks,
Bryan

Sprint brought in fiber off the SONET Ring to the MPOE to the DS3 MUX and broke it back out via copper to their protector terminal for DMARC.

So, what you are saying Bryan is that because this is fiber to the MUX which is at the customer premises there is no need for NCTE to condition any copper?

-Hal

Yes sir… that would be what I was gettin' at… With much fewer of them pesky words! :rolleyes: (I get a little too wordy sometimes!)

The MUX would also be able to do monitoring on the 28 T1’s riding on it.

Subject: T3 vs. DS3 terminology

I also meant to mention this on my earlier post to maybe help some of the earlier terminology confusion. More gee whiz info if anybody wants it.

DS3 refers to the digital rate of 44.736 Mb/s as well as signal format (non-SONET or ATM.)

T3 would be the non-SONET carrier system for a DS3 signal.

Both terms can get used interchangeable at times.


Thanks,

Cars –n- Guitars Racin’
Bryan

Thanks Bryan for your input and info as this was a new experience for me the whole trip. Until yesterday I was unaware of the option of engineering with or without a Smart Jack and couldn't understand the concept of not conditioning the copper from the terminal block. I honestly thought Sprint had an anal implant and that I was in for a wonderful time ahead of me.