Hello folks. I have lurked a bit on the forums here and have always been extremely impressed with the amount of knowledge and kindness offered to users who were willing to learn.

I'm posting now because I've just placed an order for a T1 from Covad via Verizon.

Here is the background as to why I'm concerned: This is a building that was constructed prior to the second world war, and cloth-covered 3-conductor wiring was installed (creating at least one full pair). This wiring is concealed in the walls, so it isn't replaceable. At the same time, the MPOE is apparently in our basement where Verizon's plant enters a box. In this box, the individual units' cloth-covered wiring terminates. Units which have had new wiring installed have their wiring exiting the basement exterior wall and following the exterior wall of the building to a hole drilled in the windowframe (which is a popular NYC solution, and not one I'm against in this case).

I have no real reason to be concerned about the older wiring, other than potential voltage issues (it is a higher gauge than most category 5, solid-conductor cabling I've seen), and a patina on the copper which easily polishes/scratches off. It has worked fine for POTS in the past, but ADSL was marginal at 3Mb/s. I do believe this was a result of a marginal loop coupled with the technology.

One issue I *know* I'll have, if Verizon insists on installing the NIU/SmartJack at what I believe is the MPOE is that I only have 2 pairs available. I won't be able to transport the customer side of the NIU to my unit easily. What I believe is the ideal solution, assuming they deliver via HDSL2, is to have them install the NIU/SmartJack in my unit. If the wiring to my unit is sound enough, it should be rather painless assuming I can actually get them to install it in my unit. If it is delivered via HDSL4, I would still like the NIU in my apartment, but I would also need to pay for the new wiring to support it (which I'd be happy doing, since that would bring my NIU up to my location rather than extending the Customer side of a NIU in the basement).

When and how should I approach Covad or Verizon regarding what I'd like done? Should I discuss this with the tech upon arrival, or should I contact Verizon and discuss this? Covad has basically said they cannot request special work from Verizon, and that I'd need to contact Verizon, yet they couldn't give me any contact information for someone at Verizon who could assist me.

This is kind of funny, since I'm not really clear on whether or not the demarc is even in the basement and not already in my apartment, as far as VZ is concerned. I do know that VZ came to our unit and installed the DSL (they trimmed-out older wiring and re-terminated the wiring from the basement where it enters our apartment in a new jack/block).

I apologize for the extremely long post, but I know you folks prefer too much info than too little.

I look forward to anything you kind people have to say. If there is any other information you need or would like, let me know.

Take care

I had a similar situation at a customer site a couple of years ago in the Philadelphia area. Verizon refused to mount the smart jack anywhere other than near the main demarc at the MPOE, saying it violated their tariffs.

Bill

Have you gotten a tech in to see if new wiring can be reasonably run to your location? A pro may see a way you can't. I'm talking local vendor not the phone company. Your other questions as far as the smart jacks has to be answered by Teleco, but don't count on much.

It's generally been the telco that has run the new lines from the basement that are running up the exterior wall of the building. I don't think that's going to be a huge ordeal, if required.

I have a glimmer of hope that the demarc is up in the apartment, rather than the basement, since I now recall Verizon always troubleshooting from up here at the point of entry in my apartment.

If there are any wiring contractors in the area that are perusing this and have the capability to extend a demarc in a multiple dwelling building (this is a co-op building) I'd be happy to hear from you folks, too.

Depending on the state, Verizon will terminate the DS1 at the Rate Demarcation Point (DRP) stipulated in their state tariff.

In New York, the DRP is within twelve inches of the the customers premises. Know what Vz installers in New York City do, the tech will wire extend a DS1 delivered on fiber using house cable or what ever is available. Typically using HDSL2, since one pair is easier than two.

I once was a Field Manager in NY, so I know the typical tech's approach.

If the location can only be fed on copper cable, then the tech will push the circuit up on available copper pairs. Hopefully HDSL2 from the CO or a CEV.

The only potential problem is that if the HDSL span from the CO requires a doubler (Repeater) unit, Vz OSP will engineer the HDSL span as four wires since there are no approved HDSL2 doublers in Vz.

By the way. The HTU-R HDSL remote is a defacto T1 NIU (Smart Jack), since the HTU-R hands off the DS1 at the mountings built in RJ-48C interface.

Thank you very much. I happened to be peeping down in the basement earlier, doing some laundry, and saw that a small cabinet containing one of the T1 cards had been installed. Is it 12 inches to the customer's actual unit, or the building entry?

I'm going to incur some significant cost now, since they apparently have no interest in servicing me with a demarc extension (or even servicing the demarc I believed I had, due to them always servicing our inside wiring).

It's around 600 feet from my location to the NIU which was installed... No avenue to install the wiring internally, so it will be an exterior run up the wall. I'm feeling stuck right about now.

600 feet is going to be a problem if extending from the NIU's RJ48X output. While it is true that it can be extended a little bit more than that, the LBO (line build out) settings would have to be set to compensate for this distance. I seriously doubt that the Verizon installer changed this setting.

600 feet? Are you in a sky scraper? That's about fifty floors in my book. I'd beg them to relocate the NIU using existing in-house wiring, since the line side of those things is a lot more tolerant of distance issues than the customer side.

I was shooting in the dark with the 600' figure, based on both the height and the lateral distance. It's actually a 6-story building, so it may be in the area of 60' tall. However, all of the wiring will need to be installed on the building's exterior and wrapped around the roof's wall. I might have been way off, though.

As far as begging, I'm having a hard time finding who I can speak to that has the authority to adjust the demarc. Verizon states that they cannot speak to me about doing any work, since I'm not their customer; Covad refers me to Verizon. It's a thrill.

I definitely have no issue in bringing-in a qualified wiring contractor to make the run for me, I'm just thinking it's most ideal to have the NIU within my unit considering I have the single pair available (It's now confirmed that it's run on HDSL2) and there wouldn't be any distance issues.

I cannot thank you folks enough for all of the continuing advice.

I just spoke with my CLEC's provisioning, and they stated that an outside contractor can reposition the smartjack/NIU. Is this really a service I can have performed, or will I need to continue to beg my CLEC to request the service from Verizon? I'm still not completely clear on how to get them to do it.

Thanks again.

Legally, the CLEC is only permitted to extend the output side of the smart jack (NIU). The network side of the NIU, which only requires one pair of "CAT Nothing" wire belongs to Verizon. They are not going to be happy if someone else moves their equipment.

I'd beg the CLEC to arrange for Verizon to move it just to keep peace. It might cost you some money to have them do this, but it will certainly be less expensive than paying someone to run a CAT5e from the basement to your unit. Verizon can perform this extension without the need for any additional wiring to be required so that it is only labor charges that you'll get socked with.

I just spoke with provisioning again, and they stated that due to the nature of my CO, they cannot place that request. I'm not sure what's going on...

I am not familiar with Verizon NY policies but did Covad order a UNE (unbundled network element) t-1 from Verizon? Here in NJ you could identify it by Verizon's ckt id. It would be hcfu/xxxxxx/. If it is a UNE ckt then Verizon is not required to extend the ckt. They are to bring it into the mpoe and that is it. It is then up to the CLEC or end user to extend the ckt depending on what was agreed upon when the ckt was ordered. I can see why you want the r-card in your apartment but if in the future your i.w. fails for some reason, then Covad (they are Verizon's customer, you are Covad's) could argue that it is up to Verizon to fix your I.W. for free since they are responsible for up to the rj48c handoff on the ncte mounting that houses the r-card. Now if it was ordered as a special access ckt and Covad noted a wire extension on the order than they should have no issue getting Verizon out to extend the ckt but Covad had to order it since they would be the ones getting billed by Verizon and Covad would then bill you or eat the cost, again whatever the agreement was between you and Covad. Just remember this is NJ policy things vary from state to state.

The only way (that I recall) you can request a T1 termination to be where you want (other than the MPOE) is to go retail.

Covad (no real fun either) is ordering circuits through wholesale channels which are covered by different tariff.

You can also try to ask Covad to order the circuit as a special access which may increase the odds of Verizon doing the extension but there are no promises. Verizon NY is no fun to deal with.

Best of luck!

Fred

I used to work for VZ-they will put it in the same cabinet as the one you saw.Period. They will extend with an order( this is considered de-regulated work so any vendor can do it, but since covad is their customer, they would need to place the order) , but the card stays in cabinet.

The extension from the smart jack needs 2 pairs of any kind as long as they don't xs with each other. New cat 5 is ok too. Pairs on rj45 are 4&5 and 1&2, or Cat 5 a or b. Vz will use a special shielded cable, with a special price.