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#233293 03/01/07 11:08 AM
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dans Offline OP
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Ok here goes.

Customer has the NEC IPK II. Customer uses 2 faxes for out bound only, they are analog stations 118 and 119. When they go off hook the system gives them the 1st available line, no problems with this setup since the system install last summer. As of Friday 2/23/07 when a fax is sent, 8 out of 10 times you hear error from the CO this is not a working numer. Now if I dial the same number on the same trunk using the Dterm phones the calls goes threw everytime. Connected the fax straight to the pots line by-passing the IPK the faxes go threw everytime. OK now you say its the phone system, but get this, with the fax machine back on the system I connected our digi grabber to the dmarc and sent a fax, you can hear dial tone over the digi grabbers speaker when the fax goes off hook and see the exact digits dialed on the digi grabber with no other digits.

Couple of notes.
I called my cell phone using my butt set and I was able to hook switch the call and get a second dial tone, once I have the second dial tone I am not able to dial anyone. The Provider (Century Tele) says all lines are pots with no features.


Again the digi grabber does show the exact number dialed and nothing else

OK start banging your heads

Dan S


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#233294 03/01/07 01:02 PM
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Dan:

Are we talking about manually-dialed calls from the fax machines or those stored in speed dialing locations? It could be something as simple as just inserting a pause before the phone number entered to allow the system time to grab a line and for the CO to be ready to receive digits.

I don't know much about this system, but is LCR being used for the analog stations? Sometimes, LCR needs to be set up to include the insertion of a pause in the outward dialing digit manipulation.

This is another wild guess: The 5ESS office DOES have about a half-second delay when going off-hook before it's ready to receive digits. Do you know if the CO switch has been changed-out recently by CenturyTel OR if the customer has changed local providers?

A digit grabber is prepared to receive digits immediately when the device goes off-hook, so that may be giving you a false reading as to what the CO switch is actually receiving.

Grasping at straws, but I figured a couple of things to ponder might muster up some input.


Ed Vaughn, MBSWWYPBX
#233295 03/01/07 01:24 PM
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yup i think ed's right i had same problems before though with a different system, Aspila Topaz. All i needed was to insert a pause before dialing out the digits. In case you have problems with inbound fax you have to adjust a program at 81-01-09 to accomodate your trunks.

#233296 03/01/07 03:00 PM
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dans Offline OP
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Yes pause has been tried.
LCR is not used.
Customer has not change providers
All numbers are manually dialed.
The work around for now is the customer pushing the off hook button, dialing the number, wait for the other fax to answer and than push start.

The more I think of it the more I feel the problem is in the IPK II.

We stumped NEC NTAC, their suggestions.
1. remove SLI card in programming and than re-slot it. This did not clear up the problem.

Switch out the SLI, upgrade software, have not done these two yet.
And last switch out the CPU.

Keep asking the questions. It does help to shed light on the subject.


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#233297 03/01/07 03:50 PM
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A desperate thing but I would now default the system and reload it and see if that gets around the problem. That way it is clean..


Regards,

Paul W
Now back to a 0 day week. Love these 7 day weekends.
#233298 03/01/07 05:15 PM
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Make sure you version 2.0 or higher on the IPKII.

#233299 03/01/07 10:13 PM
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Other troubleshooting steps:

Swap the SLI card with another one. Does the problem follow the card or remain at the station? Does the problem go away as if by voodoo?

Are all amphenol cables tightly connected, with the little strap to hold them in place? (yes, I have found that to be a cause of GSW (general system weirdness) in Elites - see also "bad installation practices").

Program up an identical station on the same card. Same problem?

Examine the COS, if assigned, and review any relevant options. Try creating and assigning a new COS, with only those options that you specifically need on the fax machines.

Program a mailbox in voicemail to notify one of the numbers that does not work from the fax. Call the mailbox, leave a message, and watch in CoSessions for the outdial string when the notification is sent. Does the call go through? Is the string correct?

#233300 03/02/07 02:08 AM
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I've encountered a similar problem but on the Multiline terminals.. When i dial a number it would go error or worse it directs to different number.. though we're pretty sure the dialed numbers are sent out correctly. What i did was replace the terminal with a different one and rebooted the system.. seems simple enough but maybe you could try this out. it worked for me..

#233301 03/02/07 03:53 AM
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dans Offline OP
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Looks like everyone thinks the trouble is with the IPK II.

One of the reasons I was thinking it could be the providers problem is we have had issues with them the first couple of months after the install.
One of the problems, out of the blue they stopped sending ringning voltage, they sent one of their techs out and of course said it was the PBX. It wasn't. And there has been other issues that I'm not going into


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#233302 03/02/07 05:29 AM
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One thing you might check is the loop current at the analog port on the IPK II side.

I have had problems in the past with the loop current being too high and causing tone distortion problems. Putting a 100 ohm resistor in series with the line may help.

Also look at 15-03-03 set it to special ( even though tis is supposed to be for DTMF dial thru from internal digital sets).

#233303 03/02/07 07:25 AM
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dans Offline OP
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Tip&Ring

15-03-03 is set to special.
NEC is sending out a SLI Card, a shot in the dark.
And we are going to upgrade the software to 1.52.

Thanks for the info.


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#233304 03/02/07 11:13 PM
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Hey, Dan, if you think it might be the provider, I don't suppose you have any other dial tone from a different provider (maybe a fax, modem, or alarm line?) that you could swap for diagnosis? (swap back after, of course)

#233305 03/03/07 02:24 AM
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Telephoneguy's idea of testing with the IPK using a diffent provider's dialtone (if it's possible) could isolate this to the current provider. Sorry for my lack of knowledge with the IPKs, but what type of service is being provided to the IPK II (DIDs, Individual POTS, etc.)?

When placing test calls via the IPK, is this symptom isolated to a "specific" faxline, or "any" dialed faxline?

#233306 03/03/07 04:52 AM
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Its most probably provider's problem because manual dialing is going well. Means that DTMF receivers braking dial tone. It is look like that your provider missing some digits from faster dialing. You can try butt set Redial and see or you are going to have the same problem. If yes definitly provider.

#233307 03/03/07 05:03 AM
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dans Offline OP
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I made around 30 test calls with my butt set using redial with no problem. Did the same with the system Dterm phone, again no problem.

Only one provider in these area.


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#233308 03/03/07 05:30 AM
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My take from the provider side-
Can you ask your provider if they're using 5ESS? If they are, ask them if they can please run a "Verify Office" [VFY:OFC,DN=XXXXXXX, DIALED DIGITS=XXXXXXX] command to get a full detailed end to end report of the call's treatment. They should also be able to run an IPCT (in-progress call trace) for you to see exactly why you're receiving "their" (keyword) recorded announcement. Since it's their announcement, they should be able to explain why you're receiving it. And if they are 5ESS, the above tests should give them the "WHY" to provide back to you. Hopefully, the provider can be very helpful from their side with this symptom. You're right, dans, this is a headbanger.. :bang: Remember: Even though you are receiving the "that is not a working number" announcement, that is still considered a completed call out at the telco (it's just being routed to their announcement system for a specific reason), and no matter what system they are using, they should be able to tell you why the call is not processing to the fax machine.

#233309 03/03/07 12:20 PM
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dans Offline OP
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Mike,
Thanks for the advice. Getting some providers to perform test is like pulling teeth when they feel with cetain it is not their problem.
I will be back on site Tuesday.

When this is resolved I will post the fix


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#233310 03/04/07 08:11 PM
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Looking forward to hearing the solution.

#233311 03/05/07 11:51 PM
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It is a good idea to have provider take a look what is going on but I would like to ask another question. have you try another SL port on that card? Maybe port has some noise?
And one more thing. You can not compair D-term and SL because D-Term has his own DTMF but SL has to use CPU's DTMF receivers.

#233312 03/06/07 03:07 AM
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dan,
have your fax connected to ext 118 call the other one 119.
Do the 2 faxes connect with each other normally?
I think that some fax settings are not matching with the pbx settings,


Lee
#233313 03/06/07 12:13 PM
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Century Telephone? Sounds like a CLEC issue. Especially since this just "popped" up after a year of service...

Btw, what software version is on the CPU II? Since it's rollout, the IPK II has been full of "bugs". I always keep my sites updated with the latest software release's...

Lee's test would be good to determine if there is a problem with your CPU II...


www.phonelinetech.com


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#233314 03/06/07 01:41 PM
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Century Tel is a decent-sized ILEC with a presence in many states. They are not a CLEC.


Ed Vaughn, MBSWWYPBX
#233315 03/06/07 03:50 PM
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dans Offline OP
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Lee,
No we have not called fax to fax. I will try that on my next visit this Thursday. (why didn't I think of that)

IPK II,
Our plans are to update the software also on Thursday.

Dan S


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#233316 03/13/07 01:42 PM
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dans Offline OP
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Here the update.

Per NEC. First the SLI card was switched out with no results. Software upgraded with no results.

This was tested today that was not tested before.
They have 2 faxes of the same make and model one is station 117 and the other is 118 and a 3rd fax of a different make and model on its own dedicated line. Again the 2 faxes of the same make and model will receive the CO message of that number does not exist. So today we took the 3rd fax and connected it to analog station 117 and it connected every time. We also faxed station to station with no problem.
HOW CAN 2 FAXES START TO MISS DIAL ON THE VERY SAME DAY 2 WEEKS AGO???????
I have this thought in the back of my head that says something is going on at the CO.
But after today they have washed their hands and refuse to do any kind of testing. Now our customer is convinced its the NEC system.
I can tell you this, NEC has always been good to admit if there is a glitch in their equipment and go out of there way to help but on this problem its first for them.

Tomorrow I will get the make and model of the 2 faxe machines to see if there might be a manufacture bulletin.


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#233317 03/13/07 03:30 PM
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dans,
Please pass on the make/model. It sounds like an error in the digitstream being sent by this particular model. Can this "problem child" model succesfully send fax calls to any other faxlines?

#233318 03/13/07 04:20 PM
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Mike,
When this problem was called 2 weeks ago about 2 of 8 faxes would complete. Yesterday and today 6 of 8 would complete the fax. When you bypass the phone system they all go threw.

I am having a hard time with both faxes started having the same problem at the same time.


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#233319 03/13/07 05:04 PM
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Dan
I am convinced that nothing wrong with the PBX.
Has it ever happend that a normal voice call didn't go thru?
Can you change the fax dialing mode from tone dialing to pulse dialing and test if the calls can go?
Also, did you try to use other faxes??


Lee
#233320 03/14/07 11:42 AM
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Lee,
Voice calls go threw everytime.
I have not changed dialing mode from tone to pulse.

Yes we connected a different make of fax and it worked everytime.

The make and model of the fax machines we are having problems with are the Canon L120
I called Canon and I was told they do not support this model behind a PBX.

But again these 2 fax machines worked for 5 months with no problem. And for both of them to start having trouble at the same time, thats why its a head banger.

Dan S


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#233321 03/14/07 12:21 PM
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My guess, and this is only a guess, is that the threshold for the DTMF digits the NEC hears may be pretty tight, and the Fax machines may be a little too sloppy in their DTMF generation.
If you put a DTMF decoder between the system and a pots line you may see what the NEC is not recognizing.
I'm not familiar with the IPK II but you may want to look into where the touch tone receivers are, and think about replacing that piece of hardware.

#233322 03/14/07 12:50 PM
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ttech

Digi grabber showed the correct digits dialed.
And what you are saying could also be applied to the CO's equipment not translating the DTMF properly. This could be the start of equipment failure on their part.


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#233323 03/14/07 12:53 PM
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This whole thread is making me a little nervouse and sounds like issues that I get with another system with the same software. Flacky DTMF reciever settings.

Check MB 80.03.01 and see if the DTMF settings for stations is set to 0~25db
I have found a few here set to -15 ~ -470 causing problems..


Regards,

Paul W
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#233324 03/14/07 12:54 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by paulw:
This whole thread is making me a little nervouse and sounds like issues that I get with another system with the same software. Flacky DTMF reciever settings.

Check MB 80.03.01 and see if the DTMF settings for stations is set to 0~25db
I have found a few here set to -15~-40 causing problems..


Regards,

Paul W
Now back to a 0 day week. Love these 7 day weekends.
#233325 03/14/07 01:00 PM
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The DTMF recievers are on the CPU card, and they are actually DSP chips. The CPU II has 32 DTMF recievers built in to the DSP.

One thing that sounds suspicious is that these Canon fax machines may have a setting for DTMF send timing and someone set it to something else not knowing what they set.

The DTMF send should be at least set to 80-100MS length and atleast 80MS interdigit time.

If this is the case and when the machine autodials out by dialing 9 then the rest of the digits it may be going so fast that the DSP is missing the second digit.

Try and manualy dial on the fax machine if it will let you do it.

#233326 03/14/07 01:15 PM
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dans Offline OP
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I been told digi grabbers are not 100 percent accurate but when I was testing I had the tester on the dmarc and heard on the speaker of the digi grabber dial tone, DTMF and at the same time I heard the DTMF I watch the numbers come up on the display and they matched to what I dialed on the fax. I made about 20 test calls with the digi grabber and it showed every time the exact digits dialed from the fax.


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#233327 03/14/07 04:43 PM
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maybe adding a pause(usually redial button)right after the dial "9" or trunk access code before inputting the number to be dialed could help.

#233328 03/14/07 08:12 PM
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Dan
How far the faxes are from the pbx?
can you connect them directly to the MDF?
Or
Do you have the long line interface "4LLC" cards installed in your system?
If yes try to use it for your faxes and test out.


Lee
#233329 03/15/07 01:47 AM
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dans Offline OP
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We have connected the faxes straight to the MDF vie cross connect from dmarc to station cable, again the faxes do not fail at this point.

About the dial 9. That is how the system was set up and install, when this problem started few weeks back we had them enter pause after the 9, this didn't work. We than program the station ports per NEC to seize the line pool when fax goes of hook.

Dan S


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#233330 03/15/07 04:18 AM
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Dan
That points out to the line impedance of the pair of wires going to each fax.
I may suggest to use 2 pairs for each fax instead of the pair, this will reduce the line resistance and improve loop current


Lee
#233331 03/15/07 11:04 AM
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Lee,

This office is brand new. Cat 5e cable was pulled for voice and data. I can't see this being cable issue.


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#233332 03/15/07 12:01 PM
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Canon L120s use "Super G3" modems (V.34 fax protocol). Are the other "good" fax machines equipped with standard G3 modems, or with "Super G3" modems?

#233333 03/15/07 02:20 PM
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dans Offline OP
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Mike,
I don't know.


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#233334 03/15/07 07:46 PM
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That's OK. I'm just researching the V.34 and T.30 protocols. :bang:

#233335 03/16/07 09:06 AM
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dans, Try the same tests with the L120's ECM turned to OFF.

#233336 03/17/07 04:22 AM
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Mike,

I will try this next weeks.
Thanks for the tip.

Dan S


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