atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums Wiring - Telecom Carriers - Trunks & Services T1's, CSU's and DSU's Media Converters

Well, it took almost 4 months, but now Paetec is insisting the cable run is too long from the smart jack to the CSUs. The run is almost 1/4 mile in an old Westinghouse manufacturing facility turned into a business park. My client, is, of course, on the direct opposite end from the Verizon Demarc.

I'll spare you-all the details, but we ran single mode fiber from the smart jacks to the CSUs. I bought the fiber from FIS in NY and, until this job, they have been right on recommending their products for their fiber. I have always used Transition Networks media converters when going from copper to fiber and then back again. They work and have never failed me. However, the going price for a SSDTF1014-120 is nearly $825 per unit and I need four of them. When ordering the fiber and the associated mounting hardware, etc. I asked the sales rep if they had T1 media converters? He said they do, but I insisted he make sure we were talking about T1-E1 to fiber and then back again. He consulted with his technical people and they assured me a SigmaMax unit would do the job. I believed him. Mistake #1. He then said the peice was about $250 per unit. I believed him. Mistake #2. Since he assured me this would work, I never bothered to call Signamax to make sure the media converters would do the job. Mistake #3. I installed the Signamax units and hooked up the fiber patch cables, but it was getting really late and I did not TEST the circuits last night. BIG MISTAKE #4.

Today was the big cut. All the dignitaries (and I use the term loosely) were there. The scheduled time for the cut was 4 am. I insisted I needed to test the circuits before committing to the cut. Well, you can guess the rest. The cut did not happen because the Signamax media converters, although they work well for ethernet to fiber, don't work, at all, for T1-E1 to fiber. After a few long calls to FIS, Signamax and Transition Networks, it was clear that I have to either find some used Transition Networks media converters or eat the $3,000 (My cost) and that's after the refund from FIS for the Signamax units to make this all come out with a happy client and two working T1 circuits.

The bottom line here is does anyone have 4 Transition Networks or, for that matter, any other brand of T1-E1 to Fiber media converters that they would like to sell? Cash and quick is how I want to do it. The Transition networks part number is SSDTF1014-120, but that is the new unit number. The old style works just fine. It's the same number with a 105 on the end. The detail is RJ-45 copper input, SC-SC Fiber Single Mode. Thank you.

Rcaman

That's one long extension...

Are those T-1s copper or fiber, 2-wire or 4-wire circuits?

The new Paetec circuits are 4 wire copper. The old Choice One circuits (which worked very well for 10 years) came in as HDSL and were 4 wire copper as well.

Rcaman

Is the d-mark area secure enough to place the routers in there and use the equipment you have now to extended the Ethernet signal from the router to the equipment in the suite?

The other question is where did Vz place the r-cards for the old Choice One circuits? If they are in the d-mark area also and then extended to the suite from there, could you possibly cut one circuit at a time and reuse the extensions from the old circuits?

Well, now you are asking for the "boring details." Yes, the Demarc room is locked and secure, however, I am trying to extend two T-1 voice only circuits and not data circuits. At the other end of the line sits a CSU not a router.

Here's the argument Paetec is making: Prior to some time in 2010, Verizon supplied smart jacks that could push the signal, almost, to the length that we are dealing with here. That is why Choice One's circuits worked and Paetec's don't. When Verizon installed the new circuits, they used the smart jacks that don't provide much in the way of conditioning to make the long hop. That's becuase Verizon doesn't support the older smart jacks.

Now, I'm an ex Bell Telephone employee and I KNOW we were expected to make the equipment work no matter how old it was or even if it was MD. So, I'm not really buying this argument. I think the circuit was not engineered properly. The problems are: Delay in voice cut through on incoming calls, cut-offs in mid call, dialing numbers and getting dead air and low receive and transmission volume. Now, the amazing thing is that these problems are not present all the time. They come and go. The circuits drop about three times a week for no apparent reason. The Mitel EL always reports loss of sync and a Yellow Alarm and if it's out for more than a few minutes, a Red Alarm. Usually, after a few miserable calls to Paetec, the circuits come back up. Occasionally, I have to restart the Mitel.

Rcaman

Paetec might be on to something, though...any clue on what distance from the CO you're looking at?

I'd ask for a vendor meet with Verizon, and when the tech shows up have him open the pairs and test all of them with a JDSU. If all copper tests pass you move on to the next phase, which is testing the actual PRI setup.

What type of R cards are used on the old circuits, as opposed to the new ones?

How about having Peatec intall a doubler's in the 1.1 and the NIU's in the other end of the building? They can run T1's for miles outside and can't engineer another 1000' feet to the DLR because it's inside?

Ajkula66,
The smart jacks are Adtran units and I don't have the model numbers. I think they were HDLU or something like that. The CO is within a mile of the facility and these particular circuits come out of a SLiC 96 on the property.

SST,

Huh...really? You just wrote what I have told Paetec, at least, 500 times. How hard is it to design an extra 1,500' into the span? Evidently, much harder than one would be lead to believe...for Paetec, that is. We used to regularly install T-1 circuits into coal mines. Verizon would bring it to the mine property edge and it was up to us to make it the 1-1/2 miles to the bath house where the telephone equipment was installed. Funny....I NEVER had this kind of trouble with the T-1s we installed. (Over 40). Back then (20 years ago) it was just installing repeaters in the span and, as long as the span was dry, you could go on forever. I mentioned this to Paetec's engineers (I use the term very loosely) and you would have thought I was speaking Klingon.

Rcaman

If the old Adtran cards are the dark gray ones, with a long 1xxxxxx something or the other number, the matching C card can be tweaked quite a bit as far as I recall. Someone would have to do it in the CO. That might have been done when the original install took place a decade ago.

Presuming the new cards are H4TUR (light gray ones), no tweaking there on the CO side. They behave very differently in real life when compared with the old ones.

I would still get Verizon out first and prove the circuits good (or not so good) with a JDSU.

The "Klingon" suggestion is a very sane one, but I guess not for Paetec.

That being said, any time I've seen a T-1 sitting on a repeater in the field, the design involved the *old* cards even on brand new circuits...but I've never worked in PA so I have no clue what Verizon's standard practices are in your area.

Good luck, my sixth sense tells me you'll need it...

Rcaman,

With a true T-1 you could add another repeater and have it work, but with HDSL it doesn't work that way. HDSL has to have a C card in the c.o. or local vault, then it may pass through up to two doublers (no more repeaters), and finally terminate at the location with an R card that converts the signal back to t-1.

Even with the LBO set to it's highest level I haven't been able to extend a circuit much past 700' without it taking errors on the extension, so I am not sure what is up with the two old circuits. If we have an extension that is taking errors due to distance we convert the circuit back to HDSL with local C and R cards. We have to bill the carrier for the equipment since it is after the d-mark, but most carriers accept the charges.

If you still need a solution, and you have spare copper going from the d-mark to the suite, and you are sure the extension is the cause, I suggest getting some prices on the equipment needed for converting the signal back to HDSL. If it's cheaper, pull the fiber to use at another job, cut your losses and run.

Here is what you need from Adtran:
T200 H2tu-c x 2
T200 H2tu-r span power x 2
2 position t200 mounting x2
48vdc power supply to power the c-card mounting