atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums VOIP Phones & IP PBX VoIP & Cloud Phones, Hosted PBX, General IP Phones What's all this VoIP stuff anyway?

Where is this "2-3 times the cost" element come from? Cost of what?

Hal thanks for starting this thread. With the wealth of telcom experience here, it's certainly a subject worthy of discussion on this board.

Dave (Mooretel here on the board) recently pointed out that NoiseyCow had made a very credible post regarding VoIP in the Installer's Forum and felt it would be a good addition to this thread. I'm reposting it below with NoisyCow's permission:

NoisyCow has hit the nail on the head squarely: the biggest problem that we have marketing our hosted solution is overcoming the bad taste left by those who did VOIP badly and carelessly. To that end the very first step that our installers MUST do is to run our speed test (which tests bandwidth, jitter and latency in the real live environment) on the prospective customer's site. No good speed test (without a resolution by the installer/partner) = No System Install.

Just for starters.....1 48 port patch panel compared to 2x66 type blocks....actually the patch panel is MANY, Many times the cost.

Edited for spelling error....Oooops!

Peterbu, 2-3 times the cost of a TDM or hybrid. After all, even if the client has an exhisting 10/100baseT network, it's probably going to wind up overloaded with traffic, requiring a Completely Seperate network for the VOIP. And either way, it will probably require upgrading all the exhisting routers, and providing POE power, either in the network or power cubes to plug into the starved-for-outlets offices. And never mind the reboots, licensces, and continious upgrades and patches for the patches. Those power cubes alone list out at 1/2 the cost of a TDM phone!

The TDM system can use CAT three cable that, in truth, only has to have 1 decent pair, though any ethical communications company would not cut corners in that manner. AND it's probably already in place AND in use with the exhisting TDM system, that can be upgraded for 1/5, or less, the cost of going 'VOIP', or replaced for 1/3-1/2 the cost. And if a few VOIP extensions actually make sense, they can be added with minimal cabling and disruption. As I have said before, the only use I, and I think most others here, can see for VOIP, is remote/home worker(s). And the occassional on-the-road worker, who will probably have problems finding enough capacity to run his VOIP phone, sitting in his hotel/motel room.

The DOG "JUST DON'T HUNT" to quote a highly appropriate saying! PUFF, PUFF, PUFF, danged emphezema! Any body else want the soapbox!? John C.

If I had any doubts about existing wiring, I'd check it from top to bottom. (Sorry for the small hijack )

How is a telephone call or any reasonable number of telephone calls going to saturate a network? They are approximately 100 kilobit/second over a 100 megabit/second network. Even if you only want to use 1/4 of your capacity for voice you still end up with 250 simultaneous calls.
There's not much price premium for a PoE ethernet switch compared to a decent non-PoE switch.
We just completed a 50 station IP Office installation and the cost savings in not installing separate voice and data cabling and moving over their Toshiba system with a few upgrades covered the price of the system itself and the required ethernet switches.
There's a great quote that this discussion reminds me of:
<quote>I have traveled the length and breadth of this country and talked with the best people, and I can assure you that data processing is a fad that won't last out the year. (The editor in charge of business books for Prentice Hall, Inc., 1957 </quote>

What if the customer only needs a dozen phones or so? Where is the cost justification? You know, the typical corner store or small business. It seems as if the pro-IP or pro-hosted IP guys see this or 2/4 line phones as being the only options. They seem to feel the need to convince customers that the systems that have carried our communications for decades are suddenly junk.

I don't understand that part. I see their proposal as "overpriced or junk", with nothing in between. Exactly who is setting these standards? I really doubt that the customers are making such decisions.

I think that a big part of this discussion is that VoIP isn't for everyone, yet people who sell it exclusively manage to figure out a way to "force-fit" a customer into $15K worth of hardware. Worse-yet, they are sold hosted IP with never-ending fixed monthly station costs.

Oh on a side-note: What happens if the customer loses their IP connection? With hosted IP, they lose everything, even internal communications. Should I have brought that up?

All of this when $3K would have been more than sufficient with a few POTS lines for the standard small business. Let us not forget that small business makes up 60% or more of our industry.

I am not trying to be argumentative, but I still have a hard time in justifying a 100% IP system or even more so, a hosted IP setup. Maybe I am just ignorant, but consider me to be your customer for a moment and try to convince me why this is a better solution. I just don't see it.

Well said Ed.

VoIP isn't for everyone, yet people who sell it exclusively manage to figure out a way to "force-fit" a customer into $15K worth of hardware. Worse-yet, they are sold hosted IP with never-ending fixed monthly station costs.

I think the over-simplified answer to your question is that this happens because of greedy salespeople and gullable customers. When it comes to technology you can't expect customers to be experts any more than you can expect a salesperson not to take advantage of that fact.

-Hal

I for one know of MANY small business and corner store type places that are completely happy with their older key systems (Avaya, Panasonic) and would not take the VOIP hype. Heck, most of them only have one computer and a DSL connection at best, and 2-4 lines and a few phones.