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#473954 02/25/06 09:10 AM
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This came up in the 1A2 discussion, so ----

Okay, Ed & Bill, you've awakened me. Where's the x pairs? T-Screen? How about D-Screen? What colors were the binders? Japanese PIC, what were the colors?

Inside lead became inside plastic and had the same quality control issues, X pair carried over -- what was the other colors?

The pair in the 25 pr. terminal was a hold over from when cable terminals actually had 11, 16, and 26 pr of lugs.

"Tip top, ring right". What if it is upside down?

Why a streamer?

Okay, let's hear about it.


KLD wink :shrug:


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#473955 02/25/06 09:42 AM
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Just how old do you think I am? I searched for the odd pic color code, couldn't find it. Never splice the T-carrier cables so lost there. D screen? Terminal BP's were the same either way if spliced correctly. Streamer? Not ringing a bell, unless you're talking the spare in pulp cable (red violet I think). So Mr. "old" phone guy, what's the answers? I'll wait for Ed and others to reply.


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#473956 02/25/06 11:03 AM
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Wasn't there a red/white spare in one of the old cables?

#473957 02/25/06 01:03 PM
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jb,

I'll wait for Ed, also, but you aare getting real close.

KLD wink


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#473958 02/25/06 01:41 PM
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I did one t-screen cable for a remote cabinet of an SL1 around 1983. Ran through repeater orbs ever so often. Haven't seen or heard of it since.


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#473959 02/25/06 04:55 PM
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It's been a long long time since I worked with Japanese cable color code . I think it was blue,pink,green,brown,grey. Then dots and dashes to seperate binder groups as opposed to our white,red,black,yellow,violet. Have not terminated one since 1975 so I may be a little off .


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#473960 02/25/06 07:33 PM
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what is PIC cable?


Jeff Moss

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#473961 02/25/06 08:35 PM
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Jeff, it stands for polyethelene insulated conductors. Most outside plant cable uses this type of insulation and outer jacket, mainly because it's lighter and cheaper. It's terribly flammable though, so it can't be used indoors.

Prior to this, outside plant cables had conductor insulation made from paper, referred to as "pulp". This paper was waxed and formed tight and uniform binders within the cable to permit small diameter cables in congested vaults and manholes. The pairs weren't individual colors; they were all red-white, white-green, etc. on a per-binder basis. It's still available today, but not with the original outer sheath made of lead.

To protect the paper insulation from obvious destruction in the event water enters the cable, this type of cable is pressurized with nitrogen. Pressure sensors are placed at various points along the cable route to monitor this pressure. In the event of a pressure drop, an alarm is sounded in the central office for immediate repair.

As for all of those other questions, I don't have a clue. I am not old enough, although I already answered the spare pair question in another category yesterday


Ed Vaughn, MBSWWYPBX
#473962 02/25/06 09:09 PM
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Jeff Moss

In the past outside plant pulp insulation cable was treated with such things as arsenic and other nasties to reduce rodent damage . If you ever come across a wrap a solder mdf with intact gas tubes ,wood jumper holes and ink and stencil labling take a picture for your children/grandchildren .


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#473963 02/26/06 07:25 AM
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NOw, Ed, don't be that way!

Even you young guys like Ed have been around old PBX mainframes that had lead terminals similar to a mini-central office. Lead, due to it's type of manufacture had extra pairs just in case there was a bad pair. Depending on who made it 1 pair per binder or three for 100 in larger counts.

When looking at the end section of the cable one "T" divided the binders, send/recieve.
"D" wrapped the shield around one or the other binder.

Several types of Japanese PIC, most followed the pulp colors with the x-pr having a gold stripe. And yes some of the Japanese PIC by some makers had pink, orange, whatever --- seen that on some of their PBX mainframes.

Streamers were the maker's info, sometimes to include footage, sometimes just in the cable sometimes around the binders.

Justbill had the right answer on the upside down lead terminals --- wire them backwards when it is spliced.

There sure are a lot of you guys out there that know more about this old stuff then will admit it!

Have a good weekend,.

KLD wink


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#473964 02/26/06 08:22 AM
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Ed admitted it and look what happened, he immediately lost his hair. eek


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#473965 02/26/06 08:25 AM
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OK to expanded on this, if all colors of pulp or paper were the same (except the spares) how, on a straight through splice, did you get the right group to the right group?? Now, not the ends just a straight splice on dead cable.


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#473966 02/26/06 10:08 AM
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I thought I heard that if you looked at the end of a binder, the pairs were waxed together in a definite spiral pattern. If you were careful, starting with the tracer pair, you could "peel" the pairs out of the binder one at a time and get them in the proper order. If you didn't, then you had to tone each pair as you went.


Ed Vaughn, MBSWWYPBX
#473967 02/26/06 11:07 AM
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Close Ed, pairs really didn't matter, the 100pr groups are what mattered.


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#473968 02/26/06 04:58 PM
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Actually I did see an old terminal like that. It is in the basement of the industrial supply place that my hardware store has. This is a real old building. Hopefully I will be back there some day and get pictures of it. Funny thing is, one of the guys from my dad's work was there to look at cleaning up the wiring. He got a pic of the old terminal, unfortunately I do not have the pics anymore.
Maybe he still has them.
Jeff


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#473969 02/26/06 07:07 PM
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Ed, excellent observation, and jb is correct. I was generically using one binder --- binders did change colors --- one would be green and white, the next red and white, or even purple (not violet) and white. Again, every manufacturer had their own ideas.

We random spliced the pairs, and, yes, follow the natural twist if possible. Makes a neater splice but the next reel may be twisted the other way.

No matter what you did, you had to tone and tag (with tag boards) the pairs from both ends to finish the job.

Thanks for you guys keeping this old man's grey cells moving. wink


KLD wink


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#473970 02/26/06 07:50 PM
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OK you did have to tone and tag the ends, but in a straight through splice you didn't care which pair you spliced as long as the groups were right. If you looked at the cable end on it was in circular layer, each layer had an identifiable group you'd start with that group and go around the layer, than to the 1st group of the next layer. Toward the CO you counted the layers counter clockwise away from the CO you counted clockwise..hence the customer is always right, as far as cable count goes.


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#473971 02/26/06 08:25 PM
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Ah HAH! I knew I was on the right track there Ken. Thanks, Bill for verifying my "guess" at how it worked. PIC was the norm by the time I entered this business, and since I never worked for a Telco, I never worked with pulp. I just have seen it when opening abandoned splices in old buildings. Most else I know is just from research and just asking questions, like Jeff. Maybe he will be the next Ed!

Hey, Jeff, if you want to see one of the old lead-sheath stubbed cable terminals, I still have about ten of them (new in box) and I will give you one if you want to pay for shipping. Unfortunately, it's a newer one that has PIC cable pairs, not pulp. If you want one, just let me know and I will send you one.


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#473972 02/27/06 11:45 AM
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See, between the several of us we are a mobile museum.

jb knows a lot about this stuff.

Jeff another Ed? Is this a good thing? :shhh:

KLD wink


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#473973 02/27/06 06:50 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by ev607797:

[b]To protect the paper insulation from obvious destruction in the event water enters the cable, this type of cable is pressurized with nitrogen. Pressure sensors are placed at various points along the cable route to monitor this pressure. In the event of a pressure drop, an alarm is sounded in the central office for immediate repair.

[/b]
Well since you brought it up Ed. Actually the air pumped into the cable at the CO end and also in huts to re-supply the air was plain old compressed air ran through dryers filled with desiccant. When you had a leak or a dryer went bad you put on tanks of nitrogen, one of the reasons you always vented a manhole before going in, nitrogen won't support life. The pressure contactors rang into a board and would place a short on the cable pair, you'd read the resistance on the short with a wheatstone bridge to determine which contactor was in alarm, of course you could only read the closest one in alarm. Also from my old splicing days, can you guess how much (percentage) of cable (air core) is used for air flow? You won't believe the answer. This might make a good question for the trivia.


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#473974 02/27/06 09:56 PM
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Some of the old telco poles in my area have a canister hanging on them with what looks like a tire valve stem on it. Is this the same thing you are describing Bill?

#473975 02/27/06 10:12 PM
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I remember seeing overhead cables pouring out water. I also remember watching a splicer working on pulp cable with lead sheath. I'm glad we've come a long way since then.


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#473976 02/28/06 07:32 AM
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Yes Twisted Pair, when you see what appears to be a tire valve stem, that's a point where technicians could test pressure or connect a pressure source, like an air tank. Even the round repeater cases (stainless steel or light green round cans) can be equipped to be pressurized to keep moisture out of the electronics.

Yeah, Bill, I thought about that after I finished my post. I see a few pole-mouted filter/driers around here every once in a while. The nitrogen tanks are just temporary pressure sources until the permanent repair can be made. My bad :bow:

So, what is the actual percentage? I have no clue!


Ed Vaughn, MBSWWYPBX
#473977 02/28/06 07:41 AM
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junkman: Yes wet cables were common. Now days to work lead they were mask, gloves and paper suites to protect them selves, we were't that smart.

Ed. Believe it or not there is about 70 percent air flow through an air core cable.

twisted pair, Ed's got that one, can't fool him much.


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#473978 02/28/06 08:18 AM
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Does this mean Bill you have some "lead in your pencil" thanks to those days?

Since you didn't care if the splices were in pairs, only groups, did you tone right away, or did this get done as the pairs were required in the future? How did you determine polarity, or did it matter?

#473979 02/28/06 08:24 AM
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Was still tip to tip ring to ring. After all straight splices were done you'd tone from the CO to the terminal or bridge point or if you went pulp to pic. Polarity was actually more important than than now, as far as CO pairs go. Now for your first question..well maybe not.


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#473980 02/28/06 08:41 AM
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I thought they were all one color, so there was a definite color for tip and ring, just the same colors repeated?

#473981 02/28/06 11:56 AM
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Correct. The core group was also a different color from the rest, or had a different binder string.


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#473982 02/28/06 06:06 PM
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In 1977 the military had a great idea of swapping jobs. We had splicers, outside plant, and inside plant. My first assignment as an outside plant guy was to accompany a cable splicer up a pole and sit in a span car. I would assist while while the splice was replaced/repaired to " walk a mile in his mocassins". We finished the cutting in the splice and the splicer inadvertantly knocked over the torch on the paper mass. Paper caught fire and in the panic he threw a bucket of water on it effectively ruining everything we had fixed plus more. Cable car was swinging, we were beating the splice to death and I was crapping my pants as I didn't believe the car would stay up on the span. Last time on a aerial splice crew.


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Glad to hear that you didn't lose your seat because there's something about a 30 foot fall that spoils the splicing fun. I always wondered about those carnival seats, but never worked with one. It's always been in a bucket for me, but I am a yung-un.

It's hard to believe that cable splicing used to involve lead sleeves and torches! Especially in confined spaces like vaults and manholes. I guess that splicers cared about their jobs back in those days and followed protocol as opposed to today's contract splicers drinking a beer between each binder they splice. That appears to be the norm around here. Hey, a twelve pack nets a 300 pair "splice".


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#473984 03/01/06 05:01 AM
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Yep, Ed, torches and manholes were not a mix at Bell. In later years United (Sprint) said if it was okay for a splicer to enter it was safe to use a torch. Of course, my Boss said that was what splicer's helpers were for --- play canary.

smile

As a "Wrench Mechnic" splicer (remember bucket of bolts)in later years it had to show the "Kids" how to torch un-wipe aux. sleeves and build up tails for terminals.

:dance:

Have a good day,


KLD wink


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#473985 03/01/06 06:32 AM
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Pot wiping was a dieing art when I started, but that was the only way to wipe and un-wipe in a manhole. Even using a torch took some practice to get it right and they never even trained the new people to do that, figured enough of us old heads were around to take care of it. Auxiliary sleeves man KLD, that was all we did when I worked for a contract splicer, no cases allowed. RBF, sometimes the muslin would catch fire when wiping, you'd just give it a shot of nitrogen to put it out, can't believe he threw water on it must have been a panic reaction. Cable cars, I hated them with a passion.


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#473986 03/03/06 07:57 PM
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I remember when i started and worked in the manholes in Ca. having to purg cabels was a pain in the *ss. Took days to get them filled. After a few years PIC cable came down in cost so much purging was history. I should have a shelf for my old equipment. But i still use my tin cans and the string is way long today.


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#473987 03/21/06 09:11 AM
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I found the odd-pic color code for a 52 pr cable. PM me and I'll send it.


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#473988 03/21/06 10:37 AM
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Denis:

Isn't it just two standard 25 pair binders with a white/black and white/red spare? We have some left on the end of a reel that has those colors anyway. Now I am really curious.


Ed Vaughn, MBSWWYPBX
#473989 03/21/06 01:14 PM
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No Ed, odd pic had its own color code. I'd like it just for grins, sending ya a pm.


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#473990 05/12/06 12:51 PM
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EV607797, your initial response as well as subsequent responses have been very helpful to me. What I appreciated most was that you took the time out over a period of days to actually think about what it was that you were replying to. I have noticed this from you in other replys. Thank you.

Please make not of my questions, anywhere. Currently I have a question at T1'S, CSU AND DSU'S.

Sincerely,

Elsevier Lippincott

#473991 05/20/06 09:27 AM
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All of the talk about paper cables reminded me of a major snafu that happened a few days
before I arrived at Eglin Air Force base in Florida back in 1983.

Apparently, one of the guys in my shop ( outside plant ) had turned a compressor off in one of the cable huts that contained all of the main feeder cables for the base and he forgot to turn it back on. Then it rained like hell and as you can imagine, it was not a good situation.
Our Commander was embarrassed so he wanted the head of the person that did it mounted and hung on his wall. frown

He never found out exactly who did it. I never found out who it was either. But I know it would have ended whoever’s career if the Commander found out who it was.
I think there were some people that knew exactly who it was but they kept quite. I guess they felt it could have happened to any of us. And I guess it could have. :shrug:

They finally had the compressor hardwired so it couldn’t be turned off and locked the circuit breaker panel doors.

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TT ---

It DOES sound like a Gov't job, alright. Don't fix the problem, wire around it!

I worked as a cable splicer/repairman for a company that was bound and determined to NOT pay OT --- sent me to school for two weeks. Only problem was I had just opened an aerial 1200 pr pulp cable to do a throw. 5 o'clock came, we wrapped down for the night, the boss never sent anyone out to finish. The day before I got back the great wet came ---- lost it all. They sure paid me a LOT of OT to fix it.

But supervisors NEVER make a mistake, right?

KLD wink


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#473993 05/20/06 01:16 PM
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A week in the sun will do it to the blanket material. We always wrapped them with slicker, but if you expected someone to come back the next day, who'd bother with the slicker. We didn't call um stupidvisors for nothing.


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#473994 06/12/06 10:05 AM
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In this area, and I started in 1965, we always had to wrap up for the day (with buried or underground) by damming the splice, casing, and pressure testing. That was old NY Tel rules.


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#473995 06/12/06 10:06 AM
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Sorry misread date on last post.


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No problem AJ, postings live forever here.
Welcome aboard. Grab a seat, hang on, and keep reading. And post when you want to. LoL

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Ajax is correct, but as jb stated, the Boss was to send out a guy for the next day finish. They couldn't realize that some things you DON'T start at 3 pm, it would have been better to clean the truck or something until quitting time and start the throw fresh in the morning --- it would have not taken all day to do it and re-sleeve. BUT he just couldn't have a crew NOT up in the air. OKAY, BOSS, now what are you going to do? This was not the only "DUH" this boss pulled --- they promoted him to the regional office ---- supposedly he couldn't cause any problems behind a desk.

Ah, well, I sure DON'T miss dealing with people like that. smile

KLD wink


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#473998 10/12/06 07:03 PM
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Pulp cable, you are right, RIGHT to the customer and CCW to the CO.
When counting Binders in a pulp cable the core was Number 1 and the next layer started with 2 and it was predominitly Green binder in color and counted to CO or Away the next layer also had a predominet Green also and continued counting until all Binders were Id'd & Color Coded. Match group by color code and core tie and start spitten beans and mashen' em,
(B wire connectors) or if it was before that slippen tubes!!
The X-paris were the last to splice before wraping
Top and Ring were matched and tagged at the end splice, of course there were never any transpositions in the binders so it was very easy to tell which group you were looking for tone to set up a talker to start taggin.

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