atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums Wiring - Telecom Carriers - Trunks & Services Telecom Service & Providers Advice needed - Local and LD service in central NC

My office is getting eaten alive by our phone bills so I'm looking to make some changes. I know this a good forum for advice and I'm hoping it will save me some time.

Our current situation: we have 4 lines on our PBX and 1 analog line for fax and DSL. Our local service and our DSL are with the major telco here in downtown Durham, NC. This runs us over $400 a month which seems excessive to me.

Our long distance is with another major telco and they are most definitely over-charging us. A low month will be $100 to $150 and high month will be over $300. I'm seeing charges on our LD bill as high as $0.94 per minute!

All these services were in place before I started here, but it's my job to fix the mess and get our bills down.

I'm hoping I can get all our services bundled and our bill reduced significantly. The big telco that handles our local service has been somewhat helpful and has offered to get everything on one bill, but they are not actively suggesting or helping with ways to reduce our costs.

If I do nothing else except switch our LD to this company we would save some money, but I want to look at all options.

Another telco has actually sent someone out to talk with me and he'll be getting a proposal to me soon. I don't know anything about that company, but I'm impressed with the time they have taken to try and get our business.

The kind of advice I'm looking for:

What telco options do I have here in central NC?

What type of plan or plans should I be looking for?

What should we be paying for these services? ...or some way of comparing costs?

Any other recommendations?

We need to keep our 4 lines and the analog fax line, keep our DSL or some type of broadband, and have account codes on our long distance.

Thanks,
jweaks

Dear Jweaks,
Hello and thanks for posting. I'm the site moderator Barbara Clements, President of Auditel Inc. a telecom expense management and recovery company www.auditelinc.com. There are lots of great people on this forum and we will all be happy to give you some good advice. If you'd like to call my office I'd be happy to give you more options via phone 1-800-473-5655 or email me directly [email protected].

First I want to mention that it is great that you took an interest in your telephone bills
and the charges you are paying monthly including usage.

Your options of service depend on the providers in your area the main LEC or Regional Bell Operating Company (RBOC) versus the CLEC or ILEC. I will explain this more in detail via phone.

Plans to look for vary depending on the carrier you choose. I would consider plans that give no monthly minimums (or low minimums that you will certainly meet monthly). Another thing to consider is full minute increments versus six second increments. Sounds like you may have the full minute billing with high cpm (cost per minute). You also want to consider getting low initial billing increments. This is the minimum call that you will be billed for each time you connect to a caller.

Our company doesn't sell products so we can give you unbiassed feedback. I'm sure you will get lots of great feedback on this forum too.

I look forward to talking with you soon and to viewing feedback from this forum.

All the best,

Thank you. I'm starting to get some feedback and some potential new vendors are lining up.

jw

I'm going to post this info right here for Ms. Clements or anyone else who wants to comment.

We have 4 lines, 1 combination fax line/DSL line.

Our long distance carrier is AT&T and they are way overcharging us. I have a high bill of over $300 and a low bill of about $150. All our long distance calls seem to be "peak" on the AT&T bill and charges anywhere from $0.23 to $0.94 per minute.

The low bill was for:
Interstate - 1 hour 11 minutes
In-state - 1 hour 4 minutes
International - 19 mintues

The high bill was for:
Interstate - 3 hour 36 minutes
In-state - 1 hour 44 minutes
International - 0

Looks to me like we're averaging a charge of about $0.70-0.72 per minute which seems outrageous to me.

The local bill (Verizon) is $430 to $455 per month. We're being charged for:

Business lines 5 x $39.50
Line hunt service 3 x $6.25 (why do we have this? would not our PBX do the hunting?)
Interstate access charges 5 x $9.50
Advanced Data services $38.10
DSL $32.50
plus the charges for "Tri-Wide" calling which look okay unless there is a better option
and directory charges that don't look right.

and there may be other things I have not even figured out yet.

jw

It sounds like your rates are "non-contract", as in just the maximum tariffed amount allowed in your state. Many times, people will select a carrier for their long distance, but not notify the carrier that they want to do business with them. In non-contract situations, carriers treat this as "casual" use and bill accordingly.

As for the hunting, no traditional phone systems do not, and cannot provide hunting, regardless of the brand. From the rates you are paying, it appears that you don't have ISDN lines. A phone system with ISDN is the ONLY way that hunting can be provided by the phone system.

The interstate access charge sounds like a federal tax that is levied by all carriers under law and doesn't change from carrier to carrier. It's also known as the Federal Subscriber Line Charge.

The rate for DSL sounds appropriate for a business account.

The Advanced Data Services charge isn't clear to me; it could be anything.

As for directory charges (I assume you mean directory advertising), are not regulated by the state. If you elect to dispute them, you should still pay the regulated portion of your phone bill to avoid the risk of your service being disconnected due to non-payment.

You should consider switching to a competitive local exchange carrier (CLEC) that may offer a bundled package that includes all of your features with a block of long distance minutes included. Even cable TV companies have this available now, so leave no stone unturned in your quest.

Thank you, every bit of info helps me.

The "hunting" issue still has me confused me. We have a Toshiba DK40i system that I'm quite familiar with. I know it has "hunt" groups and that it "rolls" lines according to how we program them, but I'm not sure if we have ISDN lines. I have never seen anything to indicate that we do.

Maybe I just don't understand what the phone company hunt does?

Advanced data services must be the long distance codes we use to track and bill calls. We don't have anything else that it could be. That seems to be too much money as well.

The DSL is satisfactory both in cost and performance.

I have at least three carriers at this point that have stepped forward and are putting together proposals for me. I am puzzled as to why our current local carrier (big company, starts with V) has little interest in us.

They do not have a field person in the area and this isn't a small area... not Atlanta or Charlotte, but not small beans either... I have to call 'timbuktu' to talk to someone.

I'm pleased with the help and response I've gotten so far. I'm sure we'll have a satisfactory deal in place by the end of the month.

And once again this forum has been most helpful.

Thanks,
jw

JW:

Yes, you can have extensions on your system in hunt groups. Your telephone lines are basically "extensions" on Verizon's much larger "system" in their central office. They establish hunt groups for lines because otherwise, a line that's busy is simply busy and can't go anywhere. Once it's tied up with a call, unless there's hunting in place for the next call to bounce over, the caller will receive a busy signal.

I am sure that you don't have ISDN lines on your system.

I still think that checking with the local cable TV provider in your area is a viable option. You might also want to look into Vonage. While I have heard good and bad comments on Vonage service, we do have some business customers that use it.

Hunting that is programmed in your
DK40 is for calls you MAKE, not RECIEVE.
When your customers call you they dial one listed directory number. (LDN) Once a customer calls in and is on the first line a second customer will dial that same LDN and your provider will send it to your 2nd line and so on.

Hunting has to be provided by your carrier but the question is why are you being charged for it? Maybe it's a state thing but I can tell you here in New York, (where we pay double for anything) Verizon doesn't charge extra for it.

My advice is to stay far away from the likes of Vonage and cable companies. (Sorry Ed) Their quality of service is not on par with even the worst of CLEC's. My viewpoint with them is that you may save because of their cheaper rates but those rates are only because the idiots in Washington haven't imposed the taxes and surcharges on them that they do on traditional carriers and it's only a matter of time till they do. Then you will be paying the same and have crappy service. So if you want to go through this again in another couple of years Vonage is the way to go.

Not as any endorsement for Verizon but around here I always recommend to my customers that they stay with them whenever possible. Reason being any CLEC has to have Verizon do their service work for them. This won't be an issue until you have a problem. You call your CLEC to report the trouble, the CLEC calls Verizon. Verizon drags their feet because you aren't their customer and the government makes them sell to these CLECs at almost a loss. Want to get in the middle of that?

I would be VERY cautious about jumping ship. Those sales reps will promise you anything to get their commission.

Back to your problem, yes I would agree that your bill is excessive. Many times this is because whoever set up the account- either the customer or the customer service rep. (or both) didn't know what they were doing.

Yours is not a big account but that shouldn't mean that you should get the "fast shuffle". I would seriously see what Verizon can do for you before considering an alternative. Find out what services they offer through their website. I know they have several plans (like their Freedom Plans here) that bundle local, regional and long distance at a considerable savings.

Have you looked into Centrex service? Around here I recommend it for no other reason than you can get that $39.50 line charge almost cut in half.

-Hal

Hal:

They are located in the former GTE area now called Verizon. I also live in former GTE territory in Virginia. They have always charged mile-high rates for hunting, in fact for my two lines at home to hunt, I have to pay the hunting charge for both lines, even though it's only one line hunting to another! They get about $5.00 per month for each line. GTE's "Centranet" rates really don't save money like Bell's "Centrex" either. Even though they are now technically one company, they still operate independently when it comes to the rates they were tariffed by the state.

Now the Bell Atlantic territories around this area are only charging 58 cents a month for hunting. It really varies by the state and the company.

I agree with your suggestion about the Freedom plan idea around here. If this is being offered in the GTE areas, it's certainly worth looking into.

I have a feeling that the $39.50 monthly charge for lines may actually be "trunk" rates and not "POTS line" rates. JW, you may want to ask if your service is being billed as PBX trunks because you can have this regraded since you don't have a PBX. You have a key system. POTS lines are the same thing, they just cost less.

I am not sure if it is a viable option for you, but we are of similar size, although our phone usage is a little higher, and we have a partial T1. Our phones and data come in together from a CLEC. The only downside that we have seen is that our data speed slows down a bit when our phone lines are all in use, but that is not a significant problem. I have also been told that this is how the partial T1 is set up. We set it to make voice the priority in heavy usage situations. All of our services are on one bill and are a LOT lower than what you are paying, even with our data tied into the bill.
Last, we do also have one POTS for our alarm and as an emergency back-up in case the T1 fails. We did have to rely on this one line for one entire day once last year because our T1 went down.

I do have to say that we were lucky in that we have a very reputable and competent CLEC locally to buy this service from.

Oh man... this business is complex. Sheeesh!

I'm getting proposals from a couple of CLECs, one cable company, and I'm still talking (trying at least) to Verizon.

I'm hoping for others to take an interest as well.

Any opinions on ITC/Deltacom?

I'm a little gun shy on the Vonage type services. I got burned by them on my home phone.

Verizon does have some alternatives, what I don't like about them is they have no field person, no rep in the whole area. I've got to call someone in 'timbuktu' just to talk about the account.

I bet if I was not a Verizon customer and I asked them to call me or come see me they would be right on it.

I'm confused about the PBX vs. Key System. I thought we had a PBX... oh... okay... I looked this up and I understand the difference now. Similar, but not quite the same.

So, Ed has a good point that I need to figure out. We have 5 lines total. One is the FAX/DSL which is definitely a POTS. The other four lines that go into the Toshiba-DK40 box are coming off the same block. They must be POTS too and I thought they were different... son of a gun.

I don't know if they are charging "trunk" rates. I think they are charging "business" rates, how ever they figure that at $39.50 x 5 = ~$200.

On a side note... we just invested some bucks in our voice mail system that attaches to the Toshiba so I doubt I could recommend anything that does away with our Key system. We're happy with the DK40 and the Voicemail.

HAL - I wish Verizon would help me out... they have told me three times that they do not have a bundle that would help us... here are their exact words:

"It is possible to have local, long distance and DSL on one bill. There are no packages available to get a discount for the three services."

Perhaps they have a bundle without the DSL? I don't know... they're not offering solutions, I have to hunt for it myself.

Oh joy.

jweaks

We are currently paying $995.00 for everything using a CLEC. This package includes a T1 (ISDN-PRI) giving us ten voice lines and thirteen 64K channels for data (832K). This package also includes 3,000 local calls, 4,000 long distance minutes, the channel bank, the data router, 40 direct-inward-dial (DID) numbers, web site hosting and e-mail hosting. It's kind of hard to beat and we use every bit of it.

We had separate accounts for each of these services through various providers and found that this package would actually save us over $250.00 per month. Of course, it took us two years to finally transition everything over to the single provider, so we really haven't started enjoying these savings until last Friday!

It's really important to do your homework on this one. Like Hal said, leave Verizon as a last resort (that's what we had to do with Verizon-Bell Atlantic; they wouldn't budge). I seem to recall that IDC/Deltacom is a pretty strong contender in the Triangle area, so definitely consider what they have to offer. Just remember that regardless of your provider, Verizon will always be a part of the equation because they deliver the service to your premised for the new provider.

I've worked with ITC/Deltacom with a few clients. No big problems.

Verizon does have some alternatives, what I don't like about them is they have no field person, no rep in the whole area. I've got to call someone in 'timbuktu' just to talk about the account.

I wouldn't be put off by any of this. I have never seen a Verizon rep doing "house calls" even for large customers so it ain't you. Remember you have only 5 lines, that's a pretty small fish for them anyway.

Also, their call centers are scattered. You are routed to the next available agent and they could be next door or in the next state, luck of the draw.
We have Verizon offices in Valhalla which is about 2 miles away, I can walk there. Sometimes I get to talk with someone there, sometimes I get someone way out on Long Island (most often)and sometime it goes all the way to Buffalo. What difference does it make? They all have the same information.

-Hal

I hear you Hal. I'd stick with Verizon for my convienence if they would come through for me. They have offered to call me... we'll see... I'll give them a shot, but I'm doubtful.

I've got two CLECs and a one other company - ready, responsive, helpful and hungry for our business. Verizon is disinterested at this point.

Thanks,
jweaks

They have offered to call me... we'll see...

No offense and again no allegiance to Verizon but why would they call you? Sounds to me like you are more put off with the lack of "personalized service" than anything else.

For what you need to discuss (and 5 lines) you putting in a call to a customer service rep would be the way to handle this as long as you know what to talk about. From talking to us by now you should at least know what questions to ask.

Just remember that these other guys seem "ready, responsive, helpful and hungry" because they have something personally at stake like straight commissions and quotas that the Verizon reps do not. When it comes down to putting food on the table and not getting fired they will do anything and tell you anything to get your business. There is a reason these guys are in sales and it's not necessarily that they believe in the product or they want to get YOU the best deal.

Same as with Verizon, if you don't know the things to look for and what don't need and rely on the sales rep then you will make mistakes again.

-Hal

"No offense and again no allegiance to Verizon but why would they call you?"

Because we're their customer and we asked them too? Why should I have to figure out what packages and services they offer and then beg them for it? Does that not seem backwards?

I understand 'caveat emptor' and I'm doing my homework on what we need and don't need, but we're the customer. Why can't they be responsive to us?

The people I've talked to so far (at Verizon) don't seem to know their services any better than I do after looking at their website.

I'm giving them a shot, but they have to meet me at least halfway.

I believe in another week we'll have enough offers and enough information to make a good decision.

Thank you for the help... and everyone else too.

jweaks

Sorry to disillusion you but with 4 lines and a fax line you are below the radar screen for them. Your company is a commmodity buyer. Not in there profit scheme. If you got a call back it would be from accounting looking for past payment. They can't be responsive because they don't make anything from your account.

I'm from Wilson NC originally.. Now living in Texas.

Yeah, I know we're small beans, but everyone universally agrees that we're being overcharged (maybe considerably overcharged) ...which means we can and will be getting these services very soon for less, which means the "excess" that my boss has been paying for quite some time has been going somewhere.

Either they have been making a profit from our accounts or they have not been overcharging us. I understand we're tiny, perhaps invisible, in their profit scheme, but what if every 5-line business told them goodbye? Would their screens light up then?

Sorry, this is starting to sound like a debate and it shouldn't. I'm pleased with all the info I get from this forum. I'm also looking forward for this to be over... it really shouldn't be this hard to get good phone service.

I've been to Wilson and Texas, like'em both.

You coastal, northern, central? I went camping in the Panhandle a couple years ago.. very different country than NC.

Thanks,
jweaks

So you're saying that the Telco is unresponsive, overpriced and uncaring. You've almost got it!

Once you learn that they are basically incompetent, you'll truely understand them.

Don't take it personally. I recently had a customer go back to the local telco from a CLEC. They couldn't get anyone to come see them either. They ordered a voice PRI and a Data T-1 from a salesman over the phone. After a few months, they did get most of the problems worked out.

If you really want to get a price using Verizon, you may try talking to an independant agent. I have a postcard from www.etgserv.net sitting on my desk (fixing to be sitting in the can below my desk). I don't know anything about them but I think they do sell services for Verizon.

Welcome to our world...

"Once you learn that they are basically incompetent, you'll truely understand them."

I have come to understand this. So... Verizon tells me repeatedly there are no bundled packages for our services and no local contacts. I dig and find out there is at least one package (probably 2 or 3) that bundles everything we already have at a discount. I enquire about that and I'm referred to, guess who...

the local business office!

Which is... right here in Durham.

Imagine that.

I have to call the national 1-800 to get in, but once I explain everything for the Nth time I eventually get routed to the right place.

Dogbert in action.

jweaks

I told you our board was the best with top notch experts in telecom! They gave accurate, solid advice that comes from experience.

I recommend to do the following:

First fax Auditel www.auditelinc.com some pages first four from your bill 719-689-2175. I will do a free consultation with you after reviewing them or:

Call Verizon
Make sure you don't have any contracts with them on this first.
If no contracts in place, get them to reduce your current long distance rates to incremental billing and lower cost per minute. This will help you no matter what... as long as you don't sign or give a verbal approval to a term or contract. Ask for month to month rates for now.

Also ask for no minimum flat fees for the long distance usage. If you don't pay a minimum flat fee it is best - if low flat fee gives you a reduction in cost per minute then calculate the usage based upon your current minutes and multiply by the new cost per minute to ensure you will exceed minimum fee by at least 25%.

Ask what their best rate is for your hunting lines separate from your dsl service. Ask how much the cost is for single lines.

You currently have five business lines
with three in hunting (from what I can gather in your write up without viewing the actual bill).

Ask Verizon each number you are billed for and write them down. Hunting and then single lines. Then dial each of them from another line on the system or from a cell to ensure they all work properly.

Next you need to test the hunting. After checking to ensure all phone lines work properly then make sure you need all three in hunting. Are there ever times when you have three calls come in at once? If so you may need to have a traffic study completed to see if you are missing callers.

What are you using the other two lines for?
Make sure you are using them since you are being billed for them or consider reducing your lines to number needed.

The data fees could be for internet usage. Do you use Verizon to connect to the web?

Hope this helps and good luck to you!

Kind Regards

We have a office in Greenville, NC and our long distance bill was way up there, nearly 5,000 a month. We have the Samsung iDCS500 phone system and decided to go with a PRI and Earthlink's VoIP service. For 34.99 a month we get unlimited long distance and have tied it into our phone system. I think its going well though I do get the ocassional complaint about the VoIP line breaking up, its a huge savings. We will likely purchase a separate broadband service to dedicate to the earthlink system, it will still be much cheaper in the long run.

jweaks Sent you a PM

Thanks everyone. Nothing to update at this point. I'm just getting over the flu so I'm way behind.

jw

I'm getting warmer...

Verizon can do it the cheapest, but they cannot do long distance account codes the way we need.

Two CLECs have given me offers. They offer many more features than we need, but the cost savings is not as good as I had hoped. We would save $80 to $130 per month with their plans. They both want 3 year contracts, which I'm leary of.

I'm still looking.

Thanks,
jw

I have seen cases where the CLEC's prices aren't necessarily cast in stone, especially when you are signing a contract. Don't be afraid to ask them to sharpen their pencil. The worst that can happen is that they say "no".

The monthly savings you have mentioned sound a lot better since you look to be saving nearly $3,600.00 for the term of the contract. Not too shabby in my opinion. Most CLECs want a term contract due to their up-front cost with Verizon to install the circuit(s). That's not unusual. If their service ends up being bad, you can usually get out of the contract. Just make sure that if you go that route, you keep plenty of accurate documentation of any problems, along with names, order numbers, etc. so you will have plenty of ammunition in the event that it's ever needed.

Just keep in mind that most CLECs still rely upon Verizon (or LEC) to provide the circuit. Failures on the LEC's part might be out of the direct control of the CLEC. Also, remember that CLECs usually bring everything into your office over a single circuit, so if it fails, you actually lose everything unlike your current line situation. It's happened to us twice in three years and both times, it was due to a failure on Verizon's end. We were able to get our numbers forwarded to alternate destinations immediately and the service was restored pretty quickly.

We are saving about the same amount as your proposals even with our original two-year contract and I couldn't be happier with the choice we made to use a CLEC. They even sweetened the pot when our contract ended last year and actually offered us a lower rate to keep them. Not bad.

I have seen enough. And, cordially I apologize for getting here a month late. However, Mr. Weaks, you have a much better option than a three contract. Of course price is a main concern, and I have taken into consideration on your needs from this entire blog informing you of what and what not to choose. Your decision is much easier than what you expect. Ultimatley, you and we are at the mercy of the ILEC. They are the last mile. I would highly suggest to call a phone broker such as myself to eliminate the e-mailing and blogging back and forth to better address your needs. Telecom brokerage is the upgrade to CLECs. We cover the one stop shop. The best thing about going with a CLEC is you are assigned an account team normally existing of 5 direct reps and 1 sales manager. During the process, you will have direct access to all phone numbers and e-mails to better update yourself as you move closer to the install date.

Forgive me in advance if you have already pulled the trigger and signed with a carrier, but as a consultant I wanted to at least say hello. Good luck in your search, but would rather hear back from you personally.

Kind Regards,

Steven Nance
Telco Soltions
404-452-8449