atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums Other TDM Phone Systems 1A2 and Comkey Telephones & Systems My recent prize

I finally had a chance to go pick this up today. Not sure what I have here but I plan on playing and learning. The book is good, I will have to do some reading.

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Pics are with my cell phone so they're not great.

Your pics bring back memories. Nearly all bad, but memories none the less...

WECO 584 panel (?) this could do 12/13 CO lines.

ITT had a similar unit --- 512.

Know where a 512 is still hanging on a wall --- are you opening a museum?

Is it 1949 again ?

I want to hook it up and get it going with some sets I have been collecting. I figured I would use it as a learning tool, trying to be more educated like you wise ones that started with 1A2!

It's defintely Northrn Electric equipment (Northern Telecom's prior name before becoming Nortel). I remember it well. Never cared for their power supplies (upper right). Not enclosed well enough to protect from the occasional piece of scrap wire from going into places where it shouldn't.

To the left of that is the ring generator (the brass-colored box). Below the power supply is a standard interrupter (clear plastic cover to the right). The card in the slot to the left of it is unknown, but due to it's proximity, I will guess that it's a fuse card. Most larger systems had plenty of fuses to help isolating troubles. They also reduced the fire risk, since 10 volts at 10 amps on a dead short in telephone wire CAN cause a fire. Lamp circuits were usually broken down to multiple 1 1/3 amp circuits to reduce this risk. ITT 512 and ITT/WE 584 panels had all of the fusing on the back side of the panel themselves.

The cards to the lower left are typical 400-type KTU's (line cards). I don't know what the card is that is in the far-right slot. Perhaps some type of intercom card. Looks as if this is just a simple 13-slot rack, like a 584 panel.

Whats so amusing about this is that it's chock full of 66 blocks, the very ones so detested by our friends to the North.

I am guessing that this system is early to mid 1970's vintage, possibly even late 1970's. Hope you don't bust a gut trying to hang that thing on the wall!

Hey Ed, what is the interrupter for?

It makes the "clickety clack" sound while you sit on hold --- the forerunner of MOH !!! :rofl:

Okay, Jeff, I'm not Ed but the interrupter interrupts the battery via multiple contacts to flash/blink lights, ring cycles, and make that "clickety clack" noise. It is a DC motor with multiple cam lobes that make and break the connections of battery by opening and closing contacts. Mechanical "on-off" switch.

Hope that helps. :thumb:

What Ken said, except that they had them with 10 VAC motors and 24 VDC. I Don't quite know why they had different voltages, but they were out there. I have never encoundered a DC unit myself.

The contact outputs were:

LF (lamp flash) for incoming calls at 60 IPM;

LW (lamp wink) for calls on hold at 120 IPM;

RN (ringing) for locally-generated ringing to sets at 2 sec. on and 4 sec. off.

There were multiple sets of contacts on different circuits to minimize contact pitting.

What Ken said is another thing about 1A2. If the ground wasn't really good enough on systems using 400D line cards, you heard a repeated clicking during the silence while on hold that tracked the LF cadence. I don't think this was intentional.

I married an interrupter. Sorry dear, yes dear your right, I'll delete it. OK she's gone. :toast: Good explanation Ken.

Okay, that checks out with your description Ed.

The card to the left of the interrupter is labelled "8C I/C Cont" which according to my book is the "dial I/C control." The card in the lower left hand slot (green unit, picture 4), is labelled "4131 L1" which is the "dial I/C line sel"??

The rack is a hinged unit (yes, loaded full of 66 blocks behind it) and it has two sub frame units which have 7 slots each. So my question is, why did they call this a 13 slot when it has 14 slots with both sub frames?

TP ---

WHAG ( Wild Hairy A** Guess) as I didn't invent it, but 13 CO lines and 1 ICM. ??? :rofl: :dance: :idea:

Actually, check your manual --- so many slots were wired for CO lines, some have to be strapped for other use --- maybe --- depending on the manufacturer.

Normally factory wiring is connected on the bottom of the 66 block lug. WECO, ITT, everyone seemed to do it that way. Field installed wiring was on top.

The 66-blocks are for termination of the rack mounted card slots. Most installers would extend the wiring to outside the KSU onto blocks to do the x-connects, etc., to make maintenance easier.

But back to your question, ITT called their version a 512 but it was wired for 13 COs. WECO had a later version called the 513 (totally different configuration) with a 514 adapter which then became a 515 (or could be ordered as a 515). The 513 was only good for eight COs without the 514. (If my memory isn't too bad.)

TP, have fun and don't forget to get a butterfly tool for your museum.

Where did you find such a neat package of 1a2 stuff? I have a wall with 620 panels, power supply, 66 blocks etc and would have loved to have such an enclosed setup as you. As for 1a2 it's very easy to figure out, the art comes in neat wiring and being able to see colors! I have to take the cable outside to seperate the pairs. Yes and get the butterfly tool unless you're lucky enough to have solder-on 25 pr cpnnectors. I wish I had some more of those!

I actually saw it on eBay and I sent Ed a PM with the link to get his opinion on it. It was located about 3 hours away from me and since it weighed a ton, I made a deal with the seller to pick it up next time I had a service call close enough to him. Well needless to say I won it (no one else in their right mind would bid on it!) and it took about 6 weeks but I finally had a call within an hour drive of the seller so I went and picked it up. When I went to grab it and load it into my van, I couldn't believe how heavy it was!

The seller was a great guy. I ended up talking to him for a bit and he was very knowledgeable on restoring old NE and WE phones. He advised me the KSU was working when it was pulled out.

Why would I need the butterfly tool? Is it so I could terminate station cables for the sets?

Yes, TP, but it is also a museum piece. R 500, I know where an ITT 512 is hanging on a wall --- customer would probably sell w/10 button sets, some wall, some desk.

So the ITT 512 would be similar to the one I have here? And what does ITT stand for?

What you Twisted Pair has is the Northern Electric equivalent of ITT's K36A key system. It was a bundled package that combined the basic power and line functionality of the K512 (13 line) KSU, but included some factory-wired intercom functionality. It also was Northern's early equivalent to Western Electric's Comkey 718 packaged system, though the Comkey was much more advanced.

Soldered connectors on 25 pair cables are a thing of the past; you'll only find them if you pull them out of existing locations. They stopped using them in the early 1970's; the last date codes I saw on them was 1973. IDC connectors are still plentiful, but it's a whole lot easier to buy pre-terminated cables than to assemble the connectors in the field.

I.T. T. (International Telephone & Telegraph )

Darn K-36 very touchy had harness for blf i think.

But i think it had dial tone on intercom path (modern ha.)

Cards had color coded tabs.

Was the ITT stuff used here in Canada too or only the NE equipment?

Trying to figure out what the difference is between the intercom control card and the dial intercom line select card.

NE equipment was traditionally sold/leased by Bell Canada. It was also sold in the US to interconnects and sold/leased by independent telcos on a limited basis. ITT equipment was traditionally sold by interconnect companies throughout North America, including Canada. It was also sold/leased by independent telcos in the US.

I know this answer is somewhat vague, so in a nutshell, the primary market for NE was in Canada through Bell Canada.

I haven't ever acutally seen those intercom cards, but ITT's setup was similar; one card was the basic rotary dial intercom and the second card provided touch-tone capability. I would guess that's why you have two different cards as well.

No, that makes sense to me Ed. I just always hear you guys talk about the ITT stuff and wondered.

So are there different line cards as well, for rotary or TT?
I haven't had a chance yet to get into the manual other than skimming.

The line cards work for any type of dialing. The basic intercom cards were usually rotary dial only and a touch tone adapter needed to be added. Most intercom cards were for 9 or 10 stations. There were expansion cards that would expand the capacity to 19 stations or more. That might also be what you have.

CK-3641-1 Station ktu w/busy tone(3-sta per board)

CK-3642 Link card (Blue tab)

Ck-3643 Common ctr. no. 1 (green tab)

ck-3644 Common ctr. no. 2 (yellow tab)

ck-3645 Tone (Black tab)

ck-3646 Interrupter (Red tab)


ck-353 Detector (White tab)

ck-354 Translator (White tab)

Cards for K-36 ITT

Its a flaky system to work on, and cards are very sensitive.

BTW I reviewed you recent pictures and it is not a K36.

Back to the click, click, click on hold. You usually don't get that on a small system. You need hang a 2565 set on the end of 1000 feet of cable. Then the lamp & interrupter are very prevelent. No need for MOH, you knew somebody saw that light blinking.

Ain't that the truth. The larger systems that had loads of long cable runs definitely had the louder clicking when on hold.

We had similar ones like that made by AE and the equivilent made by NT. The only usefull thing you got there is the fiber glass cover I have 15 or more I use for growing flowers in. The rest of the stuff went for scrape metal.

Doing some reading in this book and they are cover 1A, 1A1, 1A2, and 6A. It doesn't tell me what the difference is or better yet, what do these numbers mean anyway?

tp,

Even though you use BIX, I'll give you the little bit of history I know on these.

Basically they are the same except ---
1A was "line powered" without lights, basic hold. Wire wound relays.
1A1 was powered but still basic --- ? lights and button ICM? Still relays?
1A2 We all know 1A2 --- bells and whistles. KTUs and other analog printed ckt cards.
6A more bells and whistles.

Size and vintage --- but remember the Model T came before the Model A Ford cars.
:rofl:

This is by memory and that ain't too good anymore. :bang:

OK, I am not old enough to know for sure, but I will take a stab at it. The numbers don't mean anything, they were just given by the original manufacturer (Western Electric) as nomenclature.

1A: The very first key systems using central control equipment; fixed in configuration and difficult to modify. All components were hard-wired together; no cards of any kind.

1A1: The improved version of the 1A that was a bit more modular in design. KTUs (Key Telephone Units) were individual rack-mounted circuit modules that consisted of exposed relays and components. On the back side, there were screw terminal fields where installers interconnected them for the desired systems configuration. Despite it's perceived antiquity, it still had KTUs to permit Touch Tone intercom services. It was phased out in the late 1960's in favor of 1A2.

1A2: The last version, though it had many improvements along the way. This version had most features, such as lines and intercom services on cards. Most card slots were hard wired for specific functions, but there were usually flexible slots that allowed multi-functional use. These slots had options that had to be activated through physical wire strapping.

The final 1A2 equipment was the 620 panel system. It consisted of modular panels that could be stacked side-by-side for any configuration. There was a Molex-type connector on a cord from each panel that mated with modular power supplies. Typically, the power supplies were mounted up high on the wall. There were two types of power supplies; four-panel and ten-panel. The panels were then mounted below them. Any panel could plug into any connector on the power supply. The 620 series panels were primarily for line cards and had pink-colored 66 fields. The 640 series panels were for intercom and special circuits such as tie lines or music on hold. They had a yellow-colored 66 field. These panels were also designed to line up perfectly with today's colored backboards for 66 blocks. The manufacturing of 1A2 equipment faded away in the early to mid 1990's as demand dropped.

6A: This was an advanced intercom system during the 1A1 era (and into the 1A2 era). It also consisted of rack mounted KTUs that were hard wired together. This intercom was unique in that it offered two talk paths. This meant that more than two parties could use the intercom system at a time. The first party would dial a station. When the called party answered, they were transferred away from the common control equipment into what became a private talk path. This freed up the common control equipment for another set of users to make a call. The second call was not private though, meaning that anyone who picked up on the intercom line could barge in. Line keys for the intercom system lit when in use, so it was optional if someone wanted to be courteous.

Some of the "advanced" features of the 6A were:

Two-link (path) operation;

Flashing intercom button lamp when called;

Intermittent ringing or buzzing instead of single burst;

Flexible expansion by adding KTUs up to 91 stations.


This ends today's class.

We had a WE 711B SxS PBX at a college radio station I worked at, with several 584 panels.

We had battery at both -48 and +24vdc, and all lamps, and 2 out of the 3 interrupters were 24vdc.
We could run the entire air chain, emergency lighting, and studio equipment off of an inverter from the -48 battery bank in the event of a power failure, in addition to the phone system.

We also used 24vdc for various amplifier modules, control switching, etc..

That's a great explanation guys. I understand it now.

Check this out:
https://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=016&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=260060876132&rd=1&rd=1

tp, back in the day every H & R Block tax office around here had one of these. Some called it a "Shoe Box".

So that's the shoe box 1A2 system!

Going by memory --- Boy, that's a mistake :scratch: --- the A and B were metal, the C was plastic covers. The ITT had a 601 --- very similar. The 601 did look like a shoe box ! :rolleyes:

Yep Ken, your memory is working today. 551A was metal and had a twist lock connector the bottom for the power cord. 551B was also metal but just had a plastic grommet installed in that hole. An extension cord just passed through it to the power supply. 551C was the new all-plastic version with a dark gray lift-off cover. The ITT 601 sure packed a lot of stuff into a little box, I mean it even had a slot for a 10 station intercom card!

It's amazing to me that after all the years of people dumping old key systems, some of us are reintalling them! There's still some of the old boxes lurking in communications closets. The few times I have been asked to clean them out, I have come home with neat old stuff, and a little newer stuff too! The 620A panels and key phones I use at home have proved reliable. And combining it with VOIP and Asterisk has turned Bell history into high tech. Another benefit has been the practice of wiring, punching down and setting up the backboard. This has come in handy when I wired the office.

The more neat old stuff I can find, the more I can put into the collection. There's so much new technology to learn but the old ways still can teach new things.

rotary500, shh, not too loud, Bob3470 thinks this stuff is only good for grow opps!

:rofl:

Will 10v lamp battery power all of your grow lamps, too?

The 24v talk battery from those old 1a2 power supply's can come in handy for Valcom paging.

True, but limited capacity, and be sure to use the "A" (or is it "B") battery. The filtered one! And, there is the drawback of size/weight vs 'ampacity'. But, for 1 or 2 1030's, it'll "git 'er done"!
John C.

A battery is filtered for use on talk (intercom) circuits. B battery is unfiltered and for use on relays, etc. Most power supplies on 1A2 have only about 1/2 amp of A battery output, but at least two amps of B battery. Valcom units will work on A or B battery since they have built-in filtering.

That's a Northern Telecom QUJ 10A KSU. There were used until the early eighties, when Northern started coming our with their digital systems (Vantage).

These "QUN" cards were the line cards I believe, with QUN 10 C&D being for Touch Tone.

I used to be the local Storekeeper for Bell Canada.

There also were two smaller units for smaller applications, the QUJ 8A, and the mid range QUJ 9A KSU's.

Somewhere around here I still have a business installer's manual that my dad gave me with info on this old equipment. He used to be a PBX installer here.

He's still around and could probably answer some of your questions. Let me know if you need his email address.

The last QUJ that I found was about 4 years ago and it was working when I removed it.

Dave

Dave,
I have some of those QUN cards. I have the QUN 10 C and I also have the QUN 10 A in there as well. They are labelled as CO/PBX L.

I also have QUN 8 A which has on it I/C CONT and NSQ 4131 which has on it L1. I am sure all those prefix letters are a Canadian Northern Telecom thing.

I am interested in finding some more information out on those cards, so yes, I may be interested in chatting with your dad.

By the way, I have a Vantage KSU as well and a ton of different model phones for it!

brings back memories, such as the northern logics with the two line cord variations, old stepper intercoms,wire wrapping for moh, and such. i do remember the last itt 1a2, the 601 with electronic interrupter, and the resistor that would smoke if you tried to ring too many sets.

I found this thread with Google, as I've been trying to figure out what the Northern Electric NSQ4131-L1 card is. Now I see it is the card on the lower right of your pictures. Electrically, it is a 2 pole 10 position rotary stepper. There is no "off" position before the first contact, just 10 live contact positions which run through in sequence. There is a "home" or off-normal position sense switch stack at position 10.

But it has essentially zero logic -- almost all the stepper connections are brought out to the 40-pin connector.

In the context of the picture, it looks like it might have been part of a multi-link or large station intercom system, with multiples of this card in the intercom slots. These are very different pin-outs than the 400 and 401 cards.

TP -- Did you find any info in the Key System Manual about the intercom unit, and would you be willing to share a copy? Could you use more of them? TIA for any help. -- Alan

Why does he need lamps? You only need lamps when you're growing stuff in the base.... OH! Never mind, I don't want to know why! John C.

Alan, I actually loaned the book out to another tech that wanted to copy some of it. He is done with it but I haven't gone over to pick it back up.

I will get it an check back with you.