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Joined: Mar 2012
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Tekamba Offline OP
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So the telephone repair community is a "good old boys" network? Is that what I am understanding? And the customer did NOT lose, there was a delay in getting their system functional, and they were compensated for this delay. There are TWO known companies in this area that service phone systems, and neither of them comes with much positive feedback.

The fact that Inter-Tel has proprietary software is nothing new, you see it all the time. The fact they won't allow anyone to have it unless they are a certified tech? That's preposterous. I bet if they marketed that when selling the phone system in the first place sales would plummet.

And what makes someone "unqualified"? Because I didn't spend thousands of dollars with each vendor learning their particular hardware and paying them a dividend? That's the "good old boy" philosophy at work there. Any person competent enough to understand how the wiring works (which eliminates a good 3/4 of the tech's out there mind you) is capable of moving/working on phone systems. They all operate the same, save for each vendor's own method of attempting to make their systems have some sort of DRM to prevent "outsiders" from working on them.
Lessons learned, and more work coming my way I'm sure (of which I clearly inform the client that while I am not "certified) for a particular phone system, I am competent and express to them that moving ANY technical hardware comes with risks. Shutting off any electronic equipment that has been running for a long time can expose a weakness in the hardware that causes problems to arise when attempting to power it back on. So it isn't always the technicians fault that something doesn't power back up properly.
Greg


Greg Hicks
Tekamba Computers, LLC
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Most people who work on Inter-Tel (not all) work for a company that is a dealer. They receive factory training and certifications. This allows them access to software and technical support from the manufacturer.
It's not a 'good old boys' network, it is how the manufacturer decides to make their dealer agreement.


Jeff Moss

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Tekamba Offline OP
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But they don't SHARE that only certified techs can do anything of substance to the hardware THAT WAS BOUGHT BY THE CUSTOMER. The ability to back up your own user information is a basic task that every customer should have, they shouldn't need to call a specialized tech for it. That is my point.


Greg Hicks
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My comments were not pointing towards a good old boys network by any means.... it was in response to a comment about a customer who gambled and lost.

In my opinion what makes someone qualified is installer level programming knowledge, backup parts or a loaner system on the shelf to get them up and running no matter what, and tech support from the manufacturer in the event you cant solve the problem on your own.

I have been in the phone business since 1997 ... i know Avaya and ESI systems inside and out and i stock parts to keep those systems up and running at all times.

I wouldn't be doing a customer justice charging them to move an Intertel system. The same holds true of a Nortel, Comdial, Toshiba and most other systems. Phone systems are not like computers where a vendor can work on just about any brand because the operating systems are the same. The process to add a line, change ringing or hunt groups, program buttons etc is different with all of the different brands and it's tough to know them all.

I don't feel right taking on that type or work ..... do i bill them when it takes me half an hour to find out in the manual how to do something?? If it doesn't boot up do i know how to figure out why not and do i have the part in stock to replace it? If not do i have a loaner system for them?

If they can hire someone else who knows their system and works on it regularly and can provide backup parts in an emergency and i can't they deserve to know that option exists.

This is exactly what happened to my customer... and the sad part is the computer guy charges just as much per hour, took longer to do the wiring work so it cost more and then had his phone system down!

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Your comments make no sense at all. Your coming from a computer background into a COMPLETELY different industry and criticizing the business models that have no understanding over. This line

"Any person competent enough to understand how the wiring works (which eliminates a good 3/4 of the tech's out there mind you) is capable of moving/working on phone systems."

makes you sound like a complete idiot. :nono:

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Back in the NEC Elektra days, we moved a customer from point A to B. I had worked on several systems, NEC among them, but I did not make a market in that particular system. I only agreed to move it because they were moving into the building where I had control over the equpment room...as in my building and the customer had no other vendor.

Geeze, they use switching power supplies in Elektra's :-) Of course, when we got it to point B it didn't come up. Lucky for us, the customer split the hardware costs and I "think" we broke even on the job.

I have another customer with an Inter-Tel. I'll look at it, because I can get help and it's not in service, nor has it been for a few years (it's in a motel that was purchased from bankruptcy). Will I support it? Not if I can help it, but it's a wedge into a real system.

Of course, I keep saying that everytime I have to look at another Mitel G217 LOL.

The point is Inter-Tel is a closely guarded system and, even if you are the smartest tech in the world, if you don't have support you're a fool to even touch it. Argue all you want about "the customer owns the system and should have all the tools to program it". Perhaps, but that's the way it is. I know about 10-15 systems well. I don't do Tadiran, Intertel, IPO's, Definity's, Option 11's, or NEAX.

It keeps me sane.

Carl

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Tekamba Offline OP
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Telecom is NOT a completely different industry. Still works on the basic concept of connect these wires to complete a circuit. Wire tracing, drops, and connections are almost identical (though in the computer field it takes MANY more than 2 wires to make a valid connection).

I don't appreciate your resorting to name calling, my point is that 90% of the telecom industry is in knowing how to route the connections. As far as the programming of the phone systems, that is no different than the multitude of computer applications customers use to solve different problems. If I have a client who is using Peachtree for accounting, and I am not that familiar with it, but I know ALL the other programs and network requirements they have, should I then send them to another service provider? No, I should LEARN what that application does, find the answers they need, and get them back functional again.

Granted this isn't all "billable" time, but if you aren't in the constant process of learning new skills, then technicians such as myself are going to blow right past you while you continue doing what you always did.


Greg Hicks
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Sometimes you gotta know your boundaries. Sure I could figure out how to write code or do database work if a customer asked, but it's not what I do. I'd be wasting their time and mine. I know others who specialize in area I do not. You can't do everything...


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Greg, while your attitude is greatly appreciated, please do us a favor and stop it. You have no idea how different each manufacturer's systems are; how differently each proprietary operating system functions and the contractual limitations that dealers must maintain with manufacturers. We can't give away the farm to anyone who thinks that they can simply find their solution on the Internet.

Anyone can find out how to wire a phone jack on-line. I'm sure that it is also a piece of cake to place a patch cord. Come on, you know that life isn't that simple. If it was, everyone would be doing it.

As legitimate and signed dealers to product lines, we have a legal commitment to NOT share proprietary information with anyone who comes along with a question. Real telephone systems are not "open source". Customers pay for the protection of knowing that the manufacturer will keep every 'Tom, Dick and Harry' from touching their systems.

Greg, I'm willing to bet that you are a very smart guy and that you probably could crack the nut that spawned this discussion. I'm not being sarcastic. I think that you can. Proprietary software and programming tools aren't so tough for a pro. As I stroke you with such compliments, you need to understand that not everyone is quite as talented as you are. In a public forum, open to the world for their viewing pleasure, all that your feedback is doing is to dilute the level of quality support that can truly be found on the Internet.

This site ranks at the top end of Google and other search engine sites. This very conversation is what we strive to avoid. We never, ever encourage people to venture into areas outside of the user's guide. We make that perfectly clear in this site's terms of service.

Isn't it funny how nobody ever reads those (TOS) in their quest for instant gratification, as in getting answers or software downloads for free? Come on, admit it. We all scroll to the bottom of the terms and click 'OK' without even reading them.

Click, click, click and it is mine, right?

This isn't the place for that. We don't give away the farm for the reasons stated herein, not to mention the obvious harm that could be caused with errant information/translation.

You really need to look at the big picture, Greg.


Ed Vaughn, MBSWWYPBX
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Tekamba Offline OP
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Very valid and well thought points Ed. Thank you for the clarity (and not resorting to name calling, which I admit I started getting dragged into).

My only real complaint was that I thought this was a forum for, I have a problem described as such, anybody have any suggestions. THAT is what I thought forums such as this were setup and meant to provide. Not tell me how to completely install and run the system, if I needed that much hand holding then I should definitely NOT be sticking my hands into these areas.

However, I KNEW it was something that was casually overlooked. The corrupt db thought didn't completely calculate with me based on the other results I was seeing. But most of the responses amounted to, "battery was dead, you should have known to check that, bad on you, swindled some poor sap". At least that is how I interpreted it.

I came here seeking the knowledge of the collective mass, not the belittlement from the elite few. I know my boundaries, and these are no where near where they are set. Yes I am intelligent, yes I am confident, but I know what I don't know. And in EVERY other forum of a technical nature I've ventured onto, I've been inundated with potential solutions. It was up to me to filter through which made sense as a possible answer (since no one but me truly knows all the factors that present themselves and it is virtually impossible to remember to include them in a post).

THAT is where the true professional shines, gather information, filter out what you realize is not relevant, and then take what's left and associate it with your current situation to try to find an answer.

It was never my intention to bring this (or any other forum) to a level below where it strives to maintain itself. However, if I feel that others are attacking my character, I will stand up for myself and speak my mind. I've never had a problem speaking up for what I feel is right. True, the telecom companies that build this hardware have a right to protect their property, but (and again this is in my VERY humble opinion) not at the expense of the customer.

Having ANY system that has a default status of non-operational is a VERY poor design. That wasn't the case in this instance, but it was pointed out that the Inter-Tel systems, upon a failed onboard battery and subsequent loss of power would then require a business to call in a "certified tech" to resolve the issue. That just seem ludicrous to me. Sure, wipe out the memory, phone system is in a VERY basic state, but NON-OPERATIONAL???? That seems to me to be a HUGE red flag as to a company who is not interested in the end user, but rather in their own bottom line. I mean, seriously, how many businesses can you say you deal with where anyone there ever even looks in the wiring closet, let alone checks for a light to tell them a battery is failed. Maybe they were told when the system was first installed, but personnel move on and things get neglected (especially when they are working at the moment).

Don't get me wrong, every business HAS to keep their own bottom line as their main goal, but any company I want to associate myself with will do that, WITHOUT risk to the end users. Maybe I have my rose colored lenses outlook, but in my business, I will share any knowledge with any client that wants to know. I don't operate via smoke and mirrors (which quite a few companies in my field do). Does this mean I don't get some service calls that would put money in my pocket? Sure. But what I've found is that it builds a better bond with my clients and actually saves me from having to address a lot of service calls that would detract me from other work.
Now, I also know when I should and shouldn't explain something to a particular client because some are their own worst enemies.
I guess the purpose of this diatribe is that while I understand the reasoning behind some of these actions, I also find it rude and insulting that a forum that professes to be a place to help other technicians, treats someone who isn't fully vetted into the psychology of what is the telecom industry, with such disdain. (Again, that is how it came across to me).

I am sure a vast majority of you technicians are more than willing to lend a quick piece of advice from time to time. Just remember, you didn't just wake up one day knowing it all, everyone runs across a situation that is new to them. That is the exact reason for forums such as this.

I appreciate everyone's responses, whether I felt they were well thought out or not, it is appreciated that you felt strongly enough about a topic such as this to voice your opinion. That is how improvement comes, through a collective discussion where all viewpoints are heard and considered.


Greg Hicks
Tekamba Computers, LLC
[email protected]
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