MDaniel called me today with an interesting question about elevator phones that I couldn't answer. Is it required that they be wired to a dedicated phone line or can they be connected to a PBX? Common sense would say no to using a PBX station because it can crash, but a stand-alone line can also go dead and it not be realized until someone needs to use it. I would imagine that this requirement varies from area to area. Does anyone have a definitive answer?

Holy Crap.......Ed with a question.......FINALY!!!!

I have used a dedicated phone line in the past. As a matter of fact in some states there is a code or requirement by the fire department that it be hooked into a dedicated phone line......

Mitch

It all depends on the elevator code where the elevator is located. I usually do dedicated line, the phone dials a monitoring company. Even made it an extension on a PBX once that would ring all other extensions. Customer felt that that was the fastest way to get help.

-Hal

It would make more sense as a hotline on a PBX, unless you have remote monitoring. Check your codes though:)

Our code here is that it has to be a dedicated POTS line and it is tested and documented on the elevator inspections.

Most elevators come with everything installed already (phone and auto dialer), just needs the line run to it and programmed.

Another code/restriction here is that we are not allowed to run that wire in the elevator mechanical room, it has to be done by licensed elevator technicians. Most of the time, they allow us to do it and just stand and watch.

Agreed on the local codes --- every one has it's own requiements.

I've done it both ways.

KLD

Here is the state of Utah they must be a home run from dmark to elevator matrix controls in it's own conduit and each elevator has it's own dedicated line. Which is tested each month.

Most elevators come with everything installed already (phone and auto dialer), just needs the line run to it and programmed.

Another code/restriction here is that we are not allowed to run that wire in the elevator mechanical room, it has to be done by licensed elevator technicians.

All the ones we have done used Viking phones. All wiring from the car to the elevator room control system must be done by the elevator technicians. That includes electrical and telephone. They will usually give us a piece of quad out of the control cabinet. We usually press a plug onto it and plug it into a surface mount jack that we install next to the cabinet on the wall.

-Hal

TP I get requests all the time from elevator people to run phone cable, so I don't think your reatriction is provincial.

I have elevator phones with ring down unit connected to pbx, push phone button and it calls operator and other set locations in building. Both phone system and ring down are on battery/generator backup.This is in nursing home,and it passed yearly inspections.Treated ringdown as line on system.-------John

Actually it is Marv. It is listed under the T.S.S.A. which governs elevator installation.

I had to take a course under the TSSA because I was doing cameras for gas bars and they covered this too.

If it is a new installation, we can rough in the cable. Once their techs start installing equipment in that room, it is off limits to us. There is something in there even about the lock on the mechanical room door has to be keyed different to prevent unauthorized access.

last time I checked the codes here it requires that it auto dial to a 24/7 manned phone number like 911 if the building is staffed 24/7 then it can ring to a inside station that is always answered.

Thanks a bunch fellows. So who would anyone need to contact?.................The local fire marshall?

And here is another question. We rewired a small hospital (3 floors) a few months back............an they didn't even have phones in the elevators at all. How do they get by with that? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Mike:

I don't know how they got away with it, but I would sure make the phone calls to the local town, city or county offices. You can't risk the fact that you wired the place making you responsible. You know what I am saying; "it was working fine before you touched it" or "there was a phone in that elevator cab before you rewired us". Legal expense to defend yourself can be devistating.

I made a few calls today to local jurisdictions and got a big fat nothing as far as answers. I am hoping someone here will chime in with the real answer since I am now perplexed as well.

We've done it several different ways as well. However, I would not just make it a hotline off of the switch that rings all phones. What if the janitor got locked in one night and he was the only one there?

Until a few years ago there were many elevators in Maine without phones. A child got trapped between the doors of elevator and killed part of the law suit included no more grandfathering of old elevators. I installed more elevator phones that year then all other years combined

On the plack in the elevator should by the number to the monitoring/installing company. If its there I would call them.

I know this much all of the elevators I have done required a pots line (no ata) because of the hot dial programmed in to it. It is no different than an alarm system as far as the code for this area. I have three 1 floor elevators that were on ata's and the fire marshal when inspecting made it very clear to us about having pots.

It's better to be safe than sorry

I believe it is the building managements responsibility to test the elevator phones daily & then report one that is not working. This is how we find out there is a problem. I have seen everything here in Houstons high rise's from slt ports to dialers on pots lines...
Usually, the building managemant does'nt even know what's on them!

Waine, how often do you need an elevator for a 1 floor building? Must be different in Texas...

:dance:

Ed, even the NEC does not address this --- it is a local jurisdiction thing all the way. In KC, MO. that meant whatever the inspector wanted. And the city inspected annually.

Here in the prison city, no one cares, no one inspects, "Oh, you want a phone?", the city inspector says it's the owner's problem.

Ain't being in business just too much fun --- more legal hassles than it can be worth at times.

KLD.

I had to take a course under the TSSA because I was doing cameras for gas bars and they covered this too.

We have regular bars that serve alcohol, some "oxygen" bars for people who want to breathe clean air in LA and some underground bars that serve up some coke, meth, and grass, but you've got people getting high on gas?

What? Nitrous Oxide is legal over the counter there? Is it a hot line to a local hospital or what?

So, Bunnie, did you get any kind of an answer to my question from your course taken under the TSSA? Did this course address the question about dedicated lines for elevator phones? I sure could use some support if you got any written code information about this subject.

I really just need an answer to the elevator phone line question originally posted.

Sorry about comming in on this so late but I was gone for the week-end. We do hotels all over the county and Hal is right check the local code, that is what you have to go by. It changes from time to time and we have to go and make changes to the elevator phones. We also have to get with the elevator company because many of the elevator phones are programmed to dial out when picked-up. Most locations in North Carolina require C.O. dial tone and cannot go through the PBX. What city and state are we talking about, we may have a hotel there and know what is allowed.

Thanks, Larry. My original post was to help myself and Mike (MDaniel) with his question. I was hoping that there would be someone who knows of some national requirement that supersedes any local codes so we could just approach every elevator phone installation the same way. Looks like it's not that simple. Thank you all for your input.

NFC

HA HA I ment 2 floor, 1 button elevators. good catch though.

You know for basement or retirement homes or wheel chair access.

All of our sites have the elevator phone/call boxes going to either a central answering point provided by the elevator company or an after hours call center. This is in addition to the emergency button (that every kids loves to play with). All of them are on their own line not thru the site pbx. Mainly here because not all of our places are manned 24/7.

Anyone called Otis Elevator or one of the other Elevator manufacturer's? Maybe they would know who to call?

Just a thought...

Otis Elevator has been out of business for many years.

If you want to be safe just provide a dedicated POTS line.

Every locality has an elevator code and the larger municipalities will have their own elevator inspectors. Contact the building department for information. They will point you in the right direction.

Not knowing where the phone is supposed to call is a common problem and not even the elevator techs on a new installation will know the answer because they are all over. Whoever is in charge of elevator inspections will have the answer.

-Hal

Besides the local codes you also have the ADA requirments for elevator commuications
https://www.talkaphone.com/news_article.cfm?c=3&nav=4

I'm not sure what the privately owned businesses use for their elevator's, but for the city owned buildings here in Tulsa, we use dedicated POTS lines. Most are AUL from Bell, SBC, AT&T...or whatever their calling themselves this week. We do have a few that have dialers installed on the line. Many of the elevator installers/service techs apparently don't have a clue what their doing as far as telephone.

What's an "AUL"? I have never heard of that before. Just curious since I need to find some good, definitive answers to this question.

I'm not really sure what the letters stand for, but it's nothing more then a ring down circuit....automaticly dials a specified number. All of our dial tone, features and everything is handled by "Bell". Everything is Plexar/Centrex....well actually, there are a few exceptions in the outlying areas. In Broken Arrow (a suburb of Tulsa), DT is handled by Valor Telecom, so on those lines we don't have the Plexar features.

Anyways, back on subject.....AUL is just a POTS line that's programmed to ring a specific number....like the 911 center.

Each one of our fire stations also has a AUL line installed that rings the "fire dispatch area" of the 911 center. Also all of our City/County libraries has a AUL "Ask Us Hot Line" that rings the Central Library downtown. They ring to an ACD number that up to 5 people take calls and answer questions for their customers. I'm starting to get off subject again, but you get the picture.

AU= Automatic (as in automatic ringdown)
L= Loop start.
This actually comes from how an electromechanical test access point would have to be configured in order for “bat phone” operation.

I couldn't agree with this more. This is the only way to go!

I agree, plus I am going to stick with the dedicated line approach. It seems like the safest thing to do. I haven't ever encountered any resistance from customers not wanting to pay for a line anyway.

Ehhh, not really. I just called my brother, Terry, who has worked for Otis in Dallas, for 25 yrs. Otis has been in business since 1857, still alive and kickin’.
He said they don't concern themselves with what kind of line it is. BUT, he was adamant that the best way to do it was a dedicated ring down circuit to the elevator manufacturers office. This way a tech can be dispatched right away. The elevator co then calls the building management. Obviously, this would require a maintenance agreement, which many companies forgo to save money.

Richard

Whew! Why not provide a cable from the vendor RJ21X to the designated spot the elevator company specifies and stop? Place all the legal stuff on facilities and the elevator company

Because local government always changes the rules.
We have one site that went from PBX extention to dedicated line, to PBX extention again in two years. I was ready to put a TK-09 switch on the darn thing.

If it was that simple, I wouldn't have even asked the question. We have lots of high-rises, some older from the 60's and 70's that didn't have an elevator phone requirement when they were built. It has taken this long for inspectors to get around to enforcing the current local codes, which vary greatly.

We don't have the luxury of handing a line over to the elevator people. We have to furnish and install the ADA-compliant phone with existing elevator installations. True, most new elevator installations include built-in phones where all that is needed is a line. I guess my question was directed more toward existing elevators that never had a phone installed.

All I know is if I ever get caught in an elevator I'm callin' my momma! 'Cause it sure looks like I'd never get anybody else if you guys keep arguing.
Edit: forgot the smiley face or ya'll might think I was serious, well, I am serious about calling Mom.

Just give'em a cup and a string.... :rofl:

I made some calls on Monday and everyone pionted me to the state fire marshall.

I called his office Tuesday and they said the only way to find any thing out was for me to leave a VM and he would call back.

Havn't heard anything back yet,........but when I do I will post it.

Thanks everyone for you concern and help on this issue.

Still waiting for a return call.

I got a call back today from the state fire marshall's office.

And they say beganing in 1996,.. there must be a phone or auto dialer in elevators in the state of Kentucky. They do not have to have a dedicated line. They can be a extension of a phone system, as long as the biulding is staffed 24/7.
If the biulding is not staffed 24/7 then it must dial out to a monitoring company or non-911 number. It can not be set to dial 911.

Thanks for the update, Mike.

Like was pointed out, every jurisdiction has it's own rules. Just make sure your local doesn't have a more stringent requirement.

Ken.

hi all i am an elevator tech and we do put in phones in elevators it is code now but it was not code in the 80's for the one that did not have a phone it did have a bell didn't it ? some states say that all you need is a way to let some one know that you need help! i dont like this. i think that the new code is right on the money

Hi, Major. Yes, we all agree the new requirements in some jurisdictions are better than the old.

This is thread is over a year old. To get more information or if you have a question, just start a new thread. As each jurisdiction has various requirements and those requirements change year to year, new threads keep the information fresh.

See you around the board.

:thumb:

Dropping my dime...

I won't mention the municipality since I do a lot of work for them and they can be vindictive.

Their school district, has many elevators, and most are without phones. They simply can't have them! The vandallism is so high that within days there is just a frazzled end of the cable left. Some brain-drained administrator once actually suggested putting them in a locked box! All the elevators are 'inspected' but have the certificates elsewhere since they also disappear. Most of their cars do have working emergency bells, but in the middle of the night, the only one that hears it is the trapped janitor.

This same plane of thinking prevails to include occupied buildings with padlocked or mag locked exit doors without exit controls. No fire extinguishers can be found and teachers often install their own personal room locks.

Local inspectors usually show up at the office and do 'paper work' for half an hour while the building staff 'gets ready' for the 'inspection'

And we are debating the type of line that is allowed! I would be glad just to see their system work even, even if it used a C&S line!(cups and string)

We often refuse to work in some of these buldings while they are in session. It is like being traped in the middle of a prison riot.

Sadly, little hope in sight...

Len

Even though there are valid points being added to an original post that began in 2006 it appears we are wandering away from technical information and headed in the direction of politics. I recommend a course correction back toward technical subject material and as KLD said any new information is best suited in it's own new post.

I think you should walk into any new elevator and look at the inspectors name that is posted on the wall of the elevator and give him a call. Here in SC you must have a dedicated telephone line. The problem with having it "ringdown" to other extensions in the building is what if someone gets stuck in it at night if it is a building that usually only has staff during the day ? We used to put in the push button style and program it to ring 911,but a monitoring company would seem to be the best idea.

Ours are on a dedicated line which goes to the monitoring company. They are tested quarterly.

Most states are following the ANSI code A17 for elevators and escalators. This code allows either POTS or PBX lines to be used. The phone MUST dial a number that is staffed 24/7. Some jurisdictions require the phone to call the local fire department. If the phone is ADA type, which is required under ANSI, it CANNOT dial 911 as that is a violation of FCC rules.

Some jurisdictions will tell you that they want it to call 911 anyway so the building info comes up on their screen. At that point I have it dial 911 since I'm more likely to be having arguements with a local inspector than I am with the FCC over where a phone dials to.

Len, regarding your elevator phones growing legs... half of the elevators that I have connected have a built in phone (air holes drilled in the metal for voice path) and a built in flush mount button, so that stealing it would require taking off the entire panel and then the security casing around the electronics.

You should talk to the elevator company and see if they offer any built in products. The fact that the phones disappear shouldn't stop them from finding a solution to the safety issue.

I have had people request 911 as the destination, but we always suggest a monitoring company.

In our hospital and others I've worked in, the phone goes to the switchboard and then the operator relays it to maintenence in the day or security guard at night. Other hospitals I've worked in use a PBX line. Never seen a POTS line in a hospital but that is just my experience.