I am new to the forums and this happens to be my first post.
I wanted to know demarcation point type jack is used in a residential house, that will probably never exceed 2 lines. To further explain:

I plan to wire 3 rooms, using cat 5e for phone. Each run will be will be terminated at the Demarc. What I used to see and don't anymore is a module that connects to phone company line in and joins up to 5 different runs. Is it still available at like graybar?

Questioning my reasoning, I don't see how a 66 or 110 block could be applicable, into tying 3 runs into 1 line.

I plan to have other jobs but would like to do it right and use the same type of materials. I have been cabling cat 5e for a long time but never ventured or focused on telephony wiring.

Please forgive me if my terminology is not accurate, still learning.

I do know better than joining a bunch of wires and electrical tape them though.

In general, the network interface device (NID) that is installed by the local telco is equipped with enough washers on the screws to permit up to four station wires to be connected per-line. Newer-design units have "flip" type connectors, again usually set up to allow up to four station cable runs to be connected. They are also usually equipped to expand to six lines by adding expansion modules, but that's the telco's responsibility, not yours.

You are over-killing your installation by running CAT5e for voice, but to each his own. The lines arrive to the premises via "CAT NOTHING" wiring, so using such cable is a waste of money. You really aren't hurting anything by running CAT5e except your wallet.

Is this junction box what you're talking about?

Hmmm, where to start...

Ok, the first thing you need to do is forget anything you know about "CAT5" wiring, matter of fact forget CAT5 altogether. The "professionals" use CAT3 because it's easier to terminate and CAT5 is not needed.

Be sure to do a separate run from each jack location to a central location such as the basement. Be sure to use 6 position/ 4 pin USOC jacks, NOT data jacks. Terminate only the WH/BL and the WH/OR on each jack. Wrap the other two spare pairs back around the jacket.

NEVER run your jack runs out to the NID. If they ever are needed for a key system or something else they will be unuseable without major work. It is ALWAYS best to run one 4 pair (or 6 pair)out to the NID from an accessable distribution point within the house.

I don't see how a 66 or 110 block could be applicable, into tying 3 runs into 1 line.

Your problem is your computer background/network wiring experience is a handicap. A 66 block IS the way to go, matter of fact use two, they're cheap (mounted with 89 brackets please.) Use one split block (50 pair) to punch down all 4 pairs of all your runs. You can do 6 runs down the left side. Use bridging clips to join the halves. Mount another split 66 block to the right of it. The CO lines from the NID run (4 or 6 pairs) get punched down starting on the top left. Bridging clips again (you only need to do the first two rows if you only use 1 line).

Now with cross connect wire come off the right side of the CO block line 1 (WH/BLs) and daisy chain all the WH/BLs on the right side of the premises wiring block.

The reason for this is twofold- maximum flexibility if more lines are added or a key system is installed and it provides a means to isolate individual jack runs or a CO line for troubleshooting without disconnecting wiring.

-Hal

Is this junction box what you're talking about?


OOOH!!! I love those. The money I have made by replacing them with real terminal blocks has allowed me to purchase goods and services that as a young man I could only have dreamt about.

This is an example of a product that could have been a real help on smallish jobs, if only the designers had put a female modular jack at the end opposite the cord, so they could be daisy-chained.

I have seen 12 or more I/W's along with a third line and a few alarm wires, all "terminated" on these.

Hal, I must courteously disagree with your recommendations about Cat3 and the jack selection.

If you will refer to the ANSI/TIA/EIA-570 Residential Cabling Standard, they recommend that in Grade 2 houses, Cat5e is the minimum grade of wire, and 8P8C jacks are recommended. Cat3 and 6P jacks are made obsolete.

With that said, I run only Cat5e as a precaution against future needs of customers, who may need to upgrade an unused voice wire to a data wire. (It costs only a little more per foot) When all the jacks and wires are uniform, it makes changes from voice to data, and the reverse, a simple matter. I do admit that I occasionally use Cat3 jacks (6P4C) for voice so that there is less confusion as to what plugs into where.

I heartily agree with the rest of what you said about 66 blocks, et al; it echoes my daily mantra, as I go about correcting the work of "experts".

If you will refer to the ANSI/TIA/EIA-570 Residential Cabling Standard...

To which none of us subscribe. ANSI/TIA/EIA-570 carries absolutely NO regulatory weight. It's right up there with BICSI, matter of fact BICSI recommendations are based on it.

How the hell can a CAT5 run outside to the NID be used for a puter?

-Hal

All the Cat5's that I install are home runs to an equipment closet or cabinet. From there, a feed is run to the NID.

The 66 blocks, data jack panels, modem, router, and UPS are all there. That accomplishes several things. All the wires can be used universally, and it keeps Telco's little fingers out of my work.

I never run a Cat5 or any wire "outside" and most NIDs around here are inside, for security reasons.

I'm with Hal, use the right cable and jack for the application it's being used for. Even if you or the customer insist on CAT5 for the "future use" use the right jack to keep people from pluging the wrong piece of equipment into the phone jack.

All your comments were very helpful. As for the terminology I used, ex. demarc type, I guess I learned know that I am looking for a junction box.

I like hbiss comment on using 2 66-blocks, but I have never installed a 66 block so I wouldn't know. I have had to test a line using a butt set, to diagnose the problem by removing the bridge clip and seeing if it internal or not. I never though of daisy chaining. I will buy a couple of 66 blocks and practice.

I ounce bought a junction box that I though will be sufficient. It had 2 terminals for a pair from the NID and had 5 sets of 2 terminals that connected all the cable runs to that NID pair. The problem is I can't find these no more. but justbill nailed it.

I am trying to learn how to do it like a pro.

I don't care for one cable or the other, but I thought that standards are changing and leading to cat 5e. I would find it even easier to work with cat 3 plus a little less cost.

Personally I like parts of the 570 spec - BUT I still use Cat 3 for voice. On the very few occasions when I've done residential I try to run a Cat 3, a Cat 5E and a coax to each of the rooms (except the bathroom - I refuse to put a computer jack in the head.)

I think this business of running Cat 5 for everything is an utter waste of money. Maybe you've got it in stock so it's easier - but go buy a reel of Cat 3 and now it's in stock too.

I've also had contractors try to send me Plenum cable for a job that didn't need it. Their reasoning - that's all we stock so we don't make a mistake. SHMUCKS - go out and look at the job! I can see on a three station candy store it might not matter, but I've run into this on a 3,000 line job!

I've got 41 years in the business and I have never seen a phone that needed more than CAT3. Except VOIP and those aren't phones - they're computers.

Use the right tool for the right job and use the right cable for the right job.

Sam

Maybe I'm lazy, but I have a cordless phone system in the house, and yes, I have a cordless netgear cable router. It's where the desk-top 'puter and printer are. If you want to use my hi-speed, come by and I'll provide you with the password! John C. (Not Garand)

Ozzy:

Here's a picture of a typical NID that's installed by the telephone company. Notice on this one, the left side (upper side in the picture) is a private compartment for the their protection and/or electronics. The right (lower side in the picture) is where the subscriber makes their terminations. This is usually installed in the vicinity of your electric service, and almost always outside:



It's hard to tell in the picture, but the wires that feed the test jacks have absolutely NO twist at all, so feeding these into CAT5e serves absolutely no purpose. It's like using a 1/2" water line to feed a 4" one. You can't improve the signal quality by using tightly-twisted wires.

I didn't realize that you hadn't already run the cables, so you really should take the advice given by others and terminate your cable runs INDOORS on industry-standard blocks.

I saw a residential termination box in a catalog (I think it was Leviton). It had space to terminate voice cables in one area, data in an another and coax in a third. The whole thing fit together in a closed cover package.

Has anyone ever used one of these things? Either by Leviton or by someone else? If so, how were they?

It seemed like a nice, little, all-in-one, professional looking unit.

I'm coming up on retirement, and if my health holds out, I might think about doing a little residential work. I think I'd rather install a consolidated panel then a bunch of separate components on a backboard in a basement. More professional, I would think.

Of course I'm speaking strictly of a POTS job - no KSUs.


Sam

You really helped me understand why it doesn't make sense to use cat 5e. I never considered what telco wiring in NID will contribute to a system. Thank you.

The leventon systems work great I installed 1 in a lawyers House in Louisiana and it was nice it lasted about as long as 2 service calles by the Dish sateleite company in the area. They went out and installed there equipment in the enclosure and tore up all the mods that had the data terminations and phone termination. Levinton put it out. I would contue to do residential install if I could install these in ever house I did not not everyone wants to spend that kind of money.

I'm not a fan of the structured wiring modules. Too much of a pain squeezed into such a small space. Give me a backboard and some blocks any day

I'm with Moss, those boxs limit your space and if you have to install a system, good f'n luck.

After a couple of years they're overflowing with all types of low voltage wires.

Even some people who accept that you don't need CAT5 or even CAT3 for POTS seem to have difficulty accepting that it serves no useful purpose for DSL either, and I wish I had a dollar (or pound) for everytime I've had somebody insist that DSL extension wiring "absolutely must be CAT5."

I think they have the idea that because it's computer data it needs to go to full Ethernet specifications. They don't seem to grasp that DSL is running over several miles of that "CAT NOTHING" cable back to the C.O. anyway.

The only advantage ,That I see for Cat5 being used entirely ,is the publics misconception,If they know one thing about cable it is CAT5, It has been promoted by every Sparkie,and most builders as the Cats meow,and therefore the consumer standard,not even considering the quality of the installation,90% of all the Cat5 Installations I have seen by other trades, have no idea how to properly handle and/or install cat5.

Well, I don't know. I've got my home network running on Cat2/3 (that's what was here when I started replacing my asynchronous pc-pc connections with a LAN), and while accessing the 3MB DSL on a 5MB LAN is fine, I think I'd rather transfer files and back stuff up on a 100mbs connection.

There's a place for everything. Cat 3 for Voice and Cat 5E/6 for Data.

Personally, I can't wait for CAT 7. We're going to "have to" replace all the data cabling for these Yahoos who HAVE TO have the latest and the greatest.

Sam

Well you guys are right about the outside connections being limited with the cat-nothing cable. As Sam said though, internal networks is what you really want the faster speeds for. People want gigabit ethernet because it makes a difference between clients and servers, file sharing, etc.

Not to add my "two cents" but in my region, I only run CAT5E for all of my my telephone runs. The reason is financial. My supplier sells CAT5E cheaper than the CAT3. Although it's a bigger pain in the rear to punch down CAT5E, it's 10 dollars cheaper oer 1000' than CAT3. I charge more for the CAT5E with the explanation that it's a better grade of cable. I run white CAT5E for telephones and blue CAT5E for data.

As for punching the cables, I always punch down all of the pairs for each station run. Accessibility is the reason. I never punch station cables on both sides of a split block then cross connect from the expansion block to each side. One side is station; one side is features from the ksu, pbx, or direct c.o.

I find that works for me.

Al Dukes :db:

"it's 10 dollars cheaper oer 1000' than CAT3."

That works out to $0.01/foot. Now all you have to do is install about a million miles of it & you can retire on the savings...

Cat 3 for tel, cat 5e for data. I once considered using just cat 5e for investment reasons, then I realised that no-one would want a larger diameter cable running along the baseboard in their house, & definately not blue or any other color. So, if I had to have 2 colors I might as well have the 2 proper types & do it right. Also not supposed to staple it, so for all the inside wiring that I do (residential) that would be nothing but a royal PITA to install.

Dave

I use Cat-5 for voice simply to save space on the truck. OK, I do keep one box of Cat-3 in case I need to make a custom patch/split cable for Partner voice applications.

While we are on the pricing note. Cat5 outside plant is much more expensive.

I cant stand the thought of cmr or cmp running out in the elements along a wall. The shield cant take it and will crack up inside of one years time.


Just one more reason to use the proper wire and shield type for the job.

When I run cable, I would never staple or run along baseboard. My wiring is always hidden. I have been installing for 30 years and would not think of running wire anywhere but in a hidden fashion. If I have to use wiremold to hide, so be it. As for the savings of a penny per foot, that's no big deal. But to staple along a baseboard...that's not my idea of a good installation.

Al Dukes :confused:

"My wiring is always hidden. I have been installing for 30 years and would not think of running wire anywhere but in a hidden fashion. If I have to use wiremold to hide, so be it."

I have yet to find one single residential client willing to pay the extra cost. I explain how I'm going to run it & where. If they want it hidden, they get two choices cost plus labour or call an EC. There's not enough money in residential to put up with fishing wires. I had only one client who refused who was in turn told to get an EC or plan on getting a lot of exercise running for the phone. Everywhere was gyrocked & covered over including the protector.

Dave

I see a lot of people knocking CAT5 for telephone here, my question is what is the harm? I only stock CAT5 on my truck just for simplicity and use it for phones and network. I'm not hurting anyone by putting in CAT5 instead of CAT3, if anything I'm giving them a chance to use it for data at a late date depending on where it's run from. Also, price wise I get CAT5 cheaper than CAT3 for the same length.

So, what is the negative of installing CAT5 for phones instead of CAT3?

I accept using cat 3 for voice and I will all the time unless all the stock I got left is cat5e. The real issue is whether voice cabling will be leading to where you will need cat5? It went from cat nothing to cat3. And shielding will be more important than twist for some applications.

I also need to thank -Hal again for the correct way to wire a residential junction.

I see a lot of people knocking CAT5 for telephone here, my question is what is the harm?

Ever terminate CAT5 on a 66 block? If you do it properly how long does it take and how much extra effort does it take to untwist each pair and straighten out each wire so that you can cut it down compared to CAT nothing or CAT3?

We actually advise any new install customer where the premises has been prewired that if we have to work with CAT5 for our voice there will be an additional $5 charge for each cable termination.

This should go into a fund for the carpal tunnel surgery that I expect to need from working with the damn stuff.

-Hal

If you know you wont be doing IP Phones then Cat5 is a waste like hal said.

If you think you might want IP phones then you will need Cat5.

If it was a commercial building I would probably quote Cat5 for station cables just because it could be IP. For residential it'd all be 2-pair Cat3 unless it was a mansion or something special.

Cat5 won't hurt anything, but it is more of a pain to terminate and more expensive then 2-pair Cat3.

I don't believe they make two pair cat 3 any more and why would you use it for residential if they did 3 residential lines is not unheard of


we use primarily cat 3 for voice and 5 for data

unless its specked otherwise

(I do pull cat 5 for voice sometimes if it makes the pull easier ie:more boxs of cat 5 than 3 )

I've seen General Cable 2-pair CAT 3 for sale at Home Depot.

They make it alright, even quad. I have thousands of feet of it that we use for making patch cables, short surface runs and for wiring SNAPS cash register networks.

My local supplier sells cat 5, $6.00 cheaper than cat 3 guess where I don't buy wire as long as I have 3 days for shipping it is still cheaper that way. I think supply houses are thinking it is cheaper to stock fewer items. In the last couple of years I've run across brand new houses being wired with quad, I told the electrician that if the home owner got a second line it would be a party line

If you think you might want IP phones then you will need Cat5.

Well kinda. If you are going to have IP phones why would you need additional wiring? Unless of course you are installing another parallel network just for the phones. Then you have to think about more than just the wiring, like terminating on a patch panel and CAT5 jacks just like the data.

If you just punch down CAT5 on a 66 block the way us telecom guys do it, it's useless for data so why bother with CAT5?

Kjwiewall, show me some CAT5e plenum that is cheaper than CAT3. Plenum is all we use.

In the last couple of years I've run across brand new houses being wired with quad, I told the electrician that if the home owner got a second line it would be a party line.

There is a thread both here and over at a sparkie board about that. The sparkie thread went for 12 pages and we watched it here in our thread. It was real fun to see them spin and wiggle out of why they have no idea how it install voice and data wiring.

-Hal

There's no argument there, I agree 100% and do prefer CAT3 when I can get it but my local suppliers don't carry it anymore, only Graybar. You're the first person I've seen mention the installation as the reason versus "It arrives on cat nothing, why upgrade it?" I personally see no technical/electrical problem with using cat5 for voice, so I was wondering if someone had a technical reason for not using it.

Actually, there is an easier way to do it on CAT5 and maintain it's cat 5 rating on a 66 block. Most if not all new 66 Block are Cat 5 and 5e rated. Take the pair through the center of the 2 pins go up with one and down on the other. Of course you have to reverse your punch for the top punch but its a TON easier than untwisting the pair.

That's true, I have done it that way. On Siemon's website, their instruction guide for the S66-MI50 blocks shows it with Cat 5e cable. But I always use Cat 3 for voice and have never had a problem getting it from a supplier.

Hbiss they raised the price of the cat 3 they didn't lower the price of cat 5e and why would you only use plenum

Actually, there is an easier way to do it on CAT5 and maintain it's cat 5 rating on a 66 block.

That's not the way we do it. Read what I said:

If you just punch down CAT5 on a 66 block the way us telecom guys do it...

We mount the blocks with 89 brackets and bring the wiring from behind the block and out the sides of the bracket. The jacket gets stripped behind the block. Each wire get laced through its slot and into the clips in the same downward direction and cut on the bottom of each clip.

The CG way you still have to untwist the pairs. You remove a minimum of jacket and keep the twist right up to the clips. They go up and down and I'll be damned if I'm going to flip the tool for each clip. That would cost them an additional $10 per cable!

-Hal

Hbiss... why would you only use plenum?

Because we almost always do commercial work. Most of our cable is run above dropped ceilings which are used for environmental air. For the few residential jobs or those not requiring a plenum listed cable it doesn't pay to go out and purchase a couple of reels of riser listed cable and keep them on the truck also.

This is also the reason we use CAT3 whenever we can. Plenum listed CAT3 is not that much more than riser listed CAT3. Plenum listed CAT5e is nearly twice the price of riser listed CAT5e.

-Hal