My company wants to start selling a true IP phone system, any suggestions on which brand?

What features do you want?

How much computer experience do you have? Different systems lend more/less to telecom or data experienced technicians. Also, what size systems are you looking at selling, and to what type of market?

Steve

What systems do you sell now??

94astro,

You have asked a question. Would you reply to the posters so your question can be answered?

Thanks,

Just got in...

We currently sell ESI, Panasonic, NEC DSX series and Avaya Partner/legend/Magix.

We have IT knowledge in our company (not me), one guy dedicated to IT work, but most of us are telecomm guys. It would be nice to sell an IP system that is not too different from PBX's as far as programming.

We are looking for basic phone features, voice mail, CFWD off premises,DND,conf calling,analog extension ports, PRI capability, remote programming etc...We are really looking for something that is robust and user friendly.

We typically sell to small to medium size busineses, rarely exceding 60 phones.

Thanks for any input.

Ehhh, not really anything that's "Pure IP". They're all hybrid for the most part. Either IP-centric with TDM compatibility or the other way around. Only thing that is all TDM is the stuff that is being EOL'd in the next few years.

Take a look at Allworx
www.allworx.com

Thanks, 94, now we have the thread rolling....

Kumba, I'm surprised you didn't mention *.

What do you mean pure IP? Do you mean a system that cannot do TDM at all or simply one that is PC based? All three systems that we sell can be all TDM OR all IP or a mix. That would be ESI, NEC (Aspire) and Tadiran. Application is everything before we present a system to a customer. Quite honestly I have yet to run into an application that using VOIP internally makes any sense at all with the way you can move phone with admin software nowadays unless you want to use softphones and/or video conferencing. NEC and Tadiran have really nice conference bridge capabilities and have real analog ports. The nice thing with TDM analog ports is that you know a fax machine or modem is going to work. SIP phones in the office are worthless IMHO and if you are going VOIP use MGCP phones because they have all the functions of a regular TDM phone. DO NOT underestimate how many simple (taken for granted)features you can lose on an all IP system BTW. Remember 75% or greater of the networks out there cannot handle voip, so you better have a handle on a good line of POE switches with QOS. The other thing is that the people running the voip system, their IT people, need to understand what they are doing. Most don't and they will simply blame you when their network fails.

If your going to look at IP based systems, take a look at ShoreTel.

Yeah Coral, you mentioned reasons why we were hesitant on selling an IP system. Right now if a customer wants IP we sell the ESI and it works pretty well. But some customers want a "full IP" system just because it's the latest.

Full IP as in a windows server? So they want to see a PC running their phones?

We've seen pretty much the same thing from our customers/prospects here, 94astro. We also sell the Tadiran and it is GREAT as both a TDM and IP switch.

We then decided to meet the demand for "pure" IP systems with Asterisk and trixbox (we feel that this product is excellent for the smaller end of our marketplace. We found that most prospects believed that the "pure" IP system was going to be less expensive....we also found that they are wrong. By the time you buy a PC, the appropriate gateways and SIP phones, they seem to price significantly higher than what we can sell a TDM/IP switch for. Relative to using PRI and analog extensions, the price goes WAY up, you need a gateway that can handle the PRI and then an FXS gateway or ATA to support the analog extensions.

These guys make a good product.

IPitomy

Full ip as in their phones plug into their network which routes to the ip system, full ip as in each phone can be moved wherever and boot-up with the same ext number. Remember I don't have IT/IP experience so I may be saying the wrong thing.

I'll check out the mentioned manufacturers and see where it take me.

Thank you...

94, you aren't saying or asking the wrong thing. We get that same question every day.

The problem is, there really is no "right" answer.

None of them work to the level that is expected or offer the features of TDM. Hybrid is the only way to go these days. Any manufacturer that only goes one way or the other is shooting themselves in the foot.

Even the industry leader, Avaya, has many if not most of their IP Office systems being installed as hybrids. Some Avaya dealers sell these systems at full TDM setups, as in standard digital phones behind them. There's just no reason to spend twice the money to get less of a phone on the desk top.

Sorry to be so blunt, but this question rivals asking the question "what's the biggest timber that I can sell a customer to build a shed". It's all overpriced and overkill and if your company jumps on that bandwagon, you won't be asking this question again.

If your company really is hell-bent on offering a 100% IP system, check out the Vertical/Vodavi Xcelerator sytem. It is available over the counter from any supply house with no certification requirements. It's inexpensive and will give your company a good taste of a 100% IP system. Try it out and use this to determine if IP really is the way to go. At least your expense will be low to test the waters.

I'll give you a good deal on the demo kit that I bought if you are interested.

Send me a PM or e-mail if you want to try it out. Otherwise, it is going on e-bay for sale to some unsuspecting end user looking to save a buck.

The more we talk the more I think that we can continue to sell ESI for our IP (remote location phones, tie systems) customers.

But, we do get calls from customers wanting a "true ip" system. We currently were beat in a sale, Shoretel over our ESI, probably a better demo...

Who knows what will happen, we'll start the research.

Well, if you can get past that fugly telephone the Shoretel is pretty decent system. Hopefully, they will make it past this last crisis.

I agree with the bulk of the comments posted here about so-called "pure IP" solutions. My experience has been that they're either too complicated as server-based systems (and I come from the IT side) or/and offer no overriding savings. Just recently I had to pull out an Asterisk installation and retrofit the customer's otherwise perfectly working Nortel TDM system (for which the Asterisk was running as a SIP gateway).
The problem was SIP bugs, compounded by not exactly reliable service from the SIP provider. The customer had insisted on Asterisk, because it was a "new thing" and it was "free". Now they're looking into Nortel's BCM system instead.
The only system I've ever installed as "pure IP" was a very small 5-user Talkswitch installation. There was 1 analog line completely separate from the system used by a faxmodem. Far as I know, it's been working fine, but also I had to do a lot of research regarding the service providers and their QOS setup (For serious installations the provider should offer DiffServ).
Be prepared to do some reading.

Perry

You said you got beat in a sale by Shoretel "probably because the demo" does your company not have the IP & soft phone demo you can get from ESI?? IT IS SWEET

I'm not sure if do have that demo, I'll ask because we definitely should.

My bosses have informed me that we are losing sales to customers who "want" a pure IP solution. The new NEC platform is not released yet, so we are looking at selling Shoretel to fill this niche until NEC "catch's" up...

I sell and install Asterisk systems and the only feature I cant reliably do is BLF/SLA. Other then that I've been able to make it do some fairly off the wall things that most phone systems couldn't touch.

However, I wouldn't recommend you pick this up and start selling it. The learning curve on it is fairly steep and unlike a traditional system if something goes wrong inside Asterisk then it goes wrong in a hurry. Having an IT background wont help you much either unless you are familiar with programming and Linux.

If you do decide to sell asterisk, just be prepared to be the engineer, tech support, installer, salesman, and holder of the buck. There is no great looming parent company you can call for help. If you cant figure it out, you are done usually. If you can figure it out, then the concept of a phone system takes on a whole new meaning and you can do pretty much anything with it.

good to know kumba. asterix and ip systems like it are ones that we would not want to get into.

94... it sounds like you guys are an ESI dealer.
Although we are are loosing some amount of sales to the "I read about VoIP in the USToday or PC Magazine" crowd, your sales person(s) should be able to show why the ESI is the better solution, and you have the best demo kit in the business (if you're not using the PRO demo kit, get one!) and shouldn't loose to ANYONE based on a better demo/sales pitch.

I sell ESI everyday, and nothing else... If you have questions, I can help, email or PM me.

we ran into the same thing (ESI over Shoretel/ cisco)a couple of years ago and picked up Toshiba as our pure IP product, not for the fact Toshiba is a better IP product but because it has the look and feel of a pure IP product. With the Toshiba MAS we can add third party applications on it for call center, CRM, IVR, SIP Trunking, ect that you can not do with ESI.
now i have installed and sold pure IP on both and there is nothing easier than a ESI IP install. half the time half the problems.

95Astro, you said you do Panasonic, Have you looked at the KXTDE systems. can use third party phones, sip and ip keysets. Like Kumba said he cant do blf or slt and a lot of customers will want one of these at one time. I think people asking for pure ip are the I.T departments thinking they will be able to look after the system themself. I think the balance of IP and basic telephone are far better.

We're going to research some "pure ip" systems, we just have to find one with the features and capabilities that we use and sell. We also look for sturdiness, something not too high maintenance and something with tech support.

But again, with all of these ideas I realize that we could sell ESI as our IP system, it's just a matter of the way we present it to people looking for an "ip solution" (??). I'll ask my boss if we have the PRO demo kit. Thanks PhoneSol.

OBT, we sell Panasonic to our residential customers for the most part, mostly because of their cordless phones w/ cell sites which I feel are the best in the biz. My boss has mentioned the panasonic with sip capabilties, we'll see where that goes.

My company (not me) has chosen Trixbox as our IP system, we are getting certified, we'll see how it goes.

With a name like that I can't see even mentioning it to a customer with a straight face. The Millennium Generation would be the only ones to take it seriously.

-Hal

Wow, if someone is hell-bent on having 100% IP, Iwatsu and Vertical (Vodavi) offer systems that can be configured that way by only using one card. When the customer realizes their mistake, they can always buy cards and digital phones for future expansion.

Sorry, but "Tribox" sounds too much like "Toybox" to me.

Trix are made for kids.............silly rabbit.
:rofl:


Sorry couldn't help myself. I've never heard of Trixbox so I can't really say any thing pro or con. But I would really check them out before selling it to a customer.

How does one get "certified" on an open source product?

One goes to certification class. Not a great name, but you can't judge a whole prduct on the name they've chosen.

Not a great name, but you can't judge a whole prduct on the name they've chosen.

You think not? The customer will! Just goes to show the stupidity here. Like I said, either it's a bunch of juveniles who don't know any better or it is being marketed to a bunch of juveniles. Apparently they were playing with their video games during marketing 101.

-Hal

You will have your customers judging by the name of the manufacturer that you are trying to sell. We have worked our way down to being just a vertical/vodavi dealer but when we go out to look at a job for a bid, people haven't heard of it. Ask them what they are looking for they say how does it compare to avaya. If you are selling something that is not a household name get ready for some reluctance even if you show a good demo.

Like I said, you can't judge a product by it's name. If it turns out to be a great system trust me we'll get people to see past it's name. If it turns out to be shi* then we're wasting our time with a product with a dumb name. But that's for us to find out.

Name rec is a different subject, I personally would have liked to go with a big name system but we didn't.

We know better than most you can't judge by name alone however you have clients that like you said want the newest greatest thing that they read about in a magazine and it's going to have a well known name. I'm just saying be ready for hesitation on the clients part.

Never heard of them. We love selling against a unknown product.

Trixbox is just an Asterisk based PBX.

Yeah I agree, name recognition is important in selling any product. I'm not in sales nor did I choose to go with Trixbox. We sell a bunch of ESI and probably 95% of customers don't know of them before we introduce it, but some how we're pushing them out there pretty well. Trixbox is definitely going to be more of a challenge to sell on the name but it may be a great product (maybe not) and it may sell itself on a demo.

I am sorry, but anyone from my generation will see the name "Trixbox" and think, "Silly rabbit, Trix are for kids!".
I cannot see that as helping a sale...

I AGREE TRIXBOX IS NOT A GOOD NAME, but if anyone who is introduced to a phone system with this name, and thinks "Silly rabbit, trix is for kids", and starts judging it on that is misguided and shouldn't be calling shots for their company's purchases.


Please watch your language and the manner in which you express yourself.

I recently had a competitor try to sell one of my customers on a Trixbox. My customer trusts me implicitly and had me sit in on the sales pitch. I was genuinely embarrassed for these guys, they were so totally unprepared. Nice guys and I'm sure they're good at data but by the time they left, they had that look on their face like they needed a strong drink or some Class A drugs.

Trixbox is Fonality's el-cheapo version of their PBXtra platform. It's a lot closer to its Asterisk roots. We talked with Fonality quite a bit about selling their PBXtra systems but it was always a circus.. They were very desperate to sign up established phone people but then they wanted nearly ten large for their NFR system.

You've obviously got no inclination towards sales and marketing. Beyond that, don't ever underestimate the inversely proportional relationship between competence and cash on hand.

We've been using Allworx for about 2 years now and are very happy with them.

Actually, Trixbox was a name picked by the group of open-source programmers who changed it from it's previous name of "Asterisk@Home" because everyone would call Digium for support.

Infact, it wasn't until the license was sold that it became a commercial product. So if you think the name Trixbox sounds funky, it's because it was never chosen (and kind of meant) to be a commercial product. The name was just chosen because they had to call it something. The fact that it's now "Commercial Open Source" is all thanks to the generation that came before us trying to make a buck.

I feel kinda sorry for 94astro. Just comes here for some help and gets his balls busted over and over about something he has no control over.

How bout everybody lighted up a little?

Figured I'd give my 2 cents from the customer point of view. :-) I am an end user (evil IT guy) who recently ended up purchasing a Mitel 3300 (all IP) over an ESI. The ESI was priced great, had some neat features, layout was nice, etc etc., however it seemed to be somewhat limited, ie-you have your choice of...one phone model, one software package, etc. The Mitel seems to be more of a platform that can be integrated in more ways than one, offers a plethora of phones and accessories to pick from, and it seems like they're more with the times when it comes to integration with new things like the Microsoft stuff.

A couple other things that stood out with the Mitel were that their phones use a base for their networking end; you can take your existing phone and put it on a wifi base, or a gigabit ethernet base (to piggyback with a computer with gigabit). They also have some tie-in with the new Microsoft Office Communications and all. To us, it seemed like a more well-rounded system.

I felt bad because our existing vendor (a small shop), I was very comfortable with them and wish we could have gone with them, but honestly I feel we're getting more bang for the buck with the Mitel. It was more the system than it was the vendor in this case. Its one thing to say that this system or that system can offer everything the customer needs (to make a phone call), but for us we looked at the whole picture.

I feel kinda sorry for 94astro.

Yeah well, you gotta expect some flack when you bring up this subject around here.

-Hal

I understand being frank or blunt, and we need to be able to do that. But after a point it struck me as ... gratuitous.

Pick a major brand name and stick with it. Although an Allwork, Trixbox, etc system actually may be a fantastic system at this point in time, all a savvy salesperson has to say is 'do you really thing these guys or this same product will be around in four years?'

The sales rep presenting the known name product will almost always get the sale. Whether the
"Trixbox' is better is irrelevent.

For those wishing to enter the IP PBX market check out IPitomy. The system is inexpensive and very well supported. It delivers what some of the other IP solutions promise.

IPitomy will appeal to the IT guy who wants to have some control. It is easy to use and has a web based interface. Some IT guys are now ruling out anything but IT. It can't hurt to check it out.

No Linux experience required!

https://www.ipitomy.com

Nothing like getting setup to blow your own horn.
Let this be a friendly warning IPvoip and any others that just want to come here a sell there own product we have rules on the board and this post is just barely inside the ropes.