Probably should have put this in the complaint department but it would get better visibility here by anybody comtemplating switching their business to cable company telephone.

Long time customer calls today about switching to cable company telephone (in this case Optimum Voice). He has 20 lines and I know that all those idiots provide is 4 lines on a modem that has RJ-11 jacks for connection. So I'm figuring 5 modems, customer says Cablevision said they will have to provide 8 because of different accounts. Keep in mind that his telecom closet is about 4'x6' and contains the Partner system and crossconnect as well as his server in a rack with switches and patch panels. So my question was "will you be putting an addition on the building?" With all those modems, their backup power, the RG-6 cable wiring and splitters and my wiring and 66 block he is going to need at least another 4 feet of backboard space from floor to ceiling. Customer had no idea.

Is there any reason they can't provide something about the size of a T1 channel bank that handles a couple of dozen lines, has an Amphenol output and one cable input? I'll answer my own question by saying that they get their cable modems from Cisco.

So customer gets Cablevision on the phone and conferences me in. I don't think they have ever had somebody that knows the telecom business give them a piece of their mind.

Basically I let him know that from their equipment to their installers, they have no idea what "business class" phone service is. All the Cablevision rep can say is that they have done jobs like this before to which I replied Oh, I know! Just one example- last week your guys did another customer of mine. They threw everything on the floor and couldn't figure out how to cut over the seven lines so they left with the customer without phone service. They had to call me on an emergency basis to get them connected.

So now my customer is having second thoughts and the cable guy is out of excuses. Customer will be saving about $500 per month and I figure that I'll be the hero here if I can figure out a way to get this done. I tell customer that I'll go there tomorrow to see what can be moved and removed. I also said that I'll be there while the "installers" are there next week "to offer my suggestions". :bang:

All I can say is if you are thinking about cable company phone service for your business be prepared for a mess and to provision the lines and set up hunting yourself through their website. These guys make Verizon look like rocket scientists.

You get what you pay for.

-Hal

Wow. We encounter a lot of similar conversions here with Cox and Comcast, but things usually go pretty well. Their installers don't mind getting smacked around when things don't work right, especially since they really don't know what they are doing anyway. They seem to appreciate the education that we give them.

They use nice outdoor units that are good for four lines. Granted, for twenty lines, they would take up a lot of wall space, but at least they are outside where space isn't an issue. Voice over CATV is not VOIP like many people think around here. It's just running on a different frequency, so channel banks aren't an option to the providers.

On larger accounts, like ones where T1 or PRI circuits are required, the cable companies can't offer them unless they have fiber to the premises. If that is the case, then they can use a traditional channel bank. We are seeing many instances where property managers won't allow the cable companies to bring fiber (or coax for that matter) into the property. Wonder if Verizon has anything to do with that?

On larger accounts, like ones where T1 or PRI circuits are required, the cable companies can't offer them unless they have fiber to the premises.

For that Cablevision has a division called Lightpath which does a pretty good job. They run fiber to the building, locate the channel banks in their own space and run 25 pair to the customers in the building. Lightpath has a few corporate parks around here but that's about it.

I used a channel bank only as an example of a size and configuration that would make multi-line installations practical. There is absolutely no reason that a cable modem cannot be packaged like a channel bank with one cable in and up to 24 POTS lines on an Amphenol out along with an ethernet port.

Cablevision, Comcast and Cox have to be purchasing millions of dollars worth of these things annually. I'm sure if they told Cisco or any other manufacturer that they wanted something like I just described they would have it tomorrow. The problem as I see it is 1) the cable companies don't know any better, 2) it's more cost effective to stock a bunch of four line modems and make them work and 3) they don't care what it looks like.

I think in the future I'm going to make my customers aware of this situation so that they can factor it into their decision. I'm also going to try to make Cablevision aware that they need to clean up their act by telling customers to make sure they complain loudly about the installations when they are unhappy with them. I doubt it will make any difference, but I can tell you that at least this sales rep sure would have been unhappy if he lost this customer because of what I was saying.

-Hal

I am glad you guys brought this up. Time Warner Cable has this thing going also. They call, e-mail me the cut sheet, then tell me when I can be there to cut them over.

Yeah, Right....!!!! :thumb:

The first time that happened they couldn't understand that it is a "tech meet" , their "installer" will call me when he is on site, and I will do my thing.

I DO NOT WORK FOR THEM. :p I work for my customer. The customer pays me, not TWC. I DO NOT call their switch room, touch their equipment, or correct their errors. Once it is tested and verified all lines are working, then I have the customer sign off.

This sets the tone for the whole relationship. The customer knows who has his interests at heart, and who to depend on.

at&t is very far from perfect but still better than TWC.

I had a bad (corporate) experience with Cablevision. I thought that they were utter and complete rectums. (Can I say rectums on a public bulletin board? - If not, please nuke me).

In any event, they so pissed me off that I cancelled my cable service to the house and put in satellite (Dish Network). What a great move! If I would have known in advance how much better (and cheaper) it was I would have done it years before.

They don't have clue.

Sam

Ya know...some of these companies should hire someone that knows what their doing..they might make a buck or two. :shrug:

I stated in this forum many times a few years ago, that when cox started delivering dial tone it was not VOIP, and more less the technology was similar to UDC devices on standard copper pairs. However, within the last year they are no longer installing these devices and handing off 2 port cable modems.

That being said, any customer with more than 2 lines does get a device like channel bank (as Hal was inquiring) with an amphenol connection, supports up to 24 lines... This is Voip.

I will be at a site tomorrow and post the make and model of their unit, which is an 8 port with amphenol connection to a block.

The problem with cable providers and voice installs, are literally the techs. They ought to be searching out retired/laid off bell techs for this instead of last weeks residential CATV installer.

Well you have to remember, they don't pay so this is what they are going to get. No Bell tech is going to want to work for that. They are also trained by people who have little or no telecom background and are sent out with little in the way of proper material. A spool of silver satin line cord, plugs, some CAT5 and some surface mount jacks is all they carry. I doubt many of them even own or know what a punch tool is.

And these are the guys who are going to cut over 20 lines to a 66 block crossconnect? Over my dead body!

-Hal

I'm now a sub contractor for Comcast cable but only when they can't figure out the system,which means the customer has no service ,lines are already ported over and system wire is now torn up or ripped out.the only devices I've seen handle 2 lines each and they stack them on top of each other on any handy place they can find.The average multi line job with 4 or more lines can require 2 or more people and take up to 2 days before they call me to see if I work on that type of system.They have no problem with my visit or hourly charge.
John

Well, my last employer has a TWC PRI, as well as internet access. Eleven B + D, balance is for internet access. Comes in on copper provided by Embarq. Biggest problem we/they have had is last mile or so of old tired aerial/buried Embarq cable, coming down Bragg Blvd. Even the Embarq techs that come out and work the cable pairs confirm the poor condition of their infrastructure. So, when it works (95+% of the time), it works fine. That other 5%, Oh well. Helpful tho, 'cause when we start getting cell phone calls from customers with TWC PRI's, we have a pretty good idea if it's a TWC major failure, or a customer specific failure. Astoundingly, the Fax lines, alarm systems, modems and all the other stuff you expect to be problems, seem to work fine! 'Course they're all working on S/L ports thru the Panasonic TDE, which has replaced the TDA that also worked fine! Too bad my employer is not huge, then he could get a PRI from each of the 4(?) CLECs in town. Could be useful for troubleshooting and configuration problem iron-outs. And of course a couple of real copper L/S and G/S lines for testing. Sometimes, the only way to confirm that a part is really bad is with real Central Office lines/trunks. What the heck, all it takes is $! John C. (Not Garand)

Hal has obviously been listening in on some of my conversations. His initial post is almost a verbatim rant that I was shouting a few months ago.

Customer, in a restaurant, gets the sales pitch to save money. I get called while the cable 'tard is there. I respond immediately, and find my extremely neat, albeit extremely tiny, wire room has been destroyed. My 2 incoming 6 pairs, multipled on two 66 blocks, with bridging clips and cross-connections, have been ripped out, and half-modular cords have been Scotchloked to the back wiring.

They are back-feeding telco, and are getting no dial tone to the KSU.

The 'tard has no clue what he's doing. When I start in on him, he gets angry (no wonder) and appeals to the restaurant owner, who picks up a mop handle, and chases the guy right into the street, telling him that he ever comes back, he'll kill him.

They used four, two-line modems, to derive eight lines, with an assortment of splitters and jumper cables that would make your eyes hurt. They hung them from my 66 blocks with wire ties.

When I called their head office to ask them if they had a larger multi-line unit, their answer was, basically, they never heard of such a thing.

Mus be sumpin rong in yo PBX.

You should have taken a picture of the mess and sent it in to them...oh wait, that sounds like one of their good installs!
Here's a picture from one of the cable TV forums...

Not all cable companies are like that. How do you think I ended up working for a cable company? I do all of the commercial installs. Part of the deal with me working for them is I was the person who got to write the specs for all commercial phone installs. I don't care if its 20 lines or 2 lines. We actually use Arris modems like the ones Jeff has pictured. While that install is less than appealing the parts are the same. it can easily be cleaned up by someone who really wanted to make it look good. Cable companies are no different than phone people really, their are some good and some bad. Just remember not to lump us all together.

Glacier, I think you are speaking for yourself and your location. My experience here is that no cable company is capable of providing service to businesses, at least those needing more than a few lines. Even with residential they do a horrible job.

You may be basing your opinion on equipment from Arris and others who have some decent products for providing voice service. Matter of fact the TM-512 EMTA which is what's in that picture is what Cablevision should be using. 12 lines on a RJ-21.

Do you guys throw a Motorola Surfboard modem on the floor behind somebodies computer, plug it into the phone with a bridging adapter, go outside and cut the wiring off the telco NID and walk away?

-Hal

Well,

It appears the model number i was going to post has already landed. And yes this is what we get with cox in the sw areas; Arrisi modems.

My biggest complaint as jeff picture points out; is the bundling of the extra amphenol. Rather than cutting it down taking away the slack, they just roll it up in big glob.

They roll up the slack cable because its pre-made and they don't know what to do with it. And Hal, I am just saying that not all cable companies are like that. The last paragraph in your original post kind of lumps together cable company telephone as a whole. This is a widely used forum and you seem to be badmouthing cable companies in general, rather than just the ones you are familiar with. And by the way, we have had installers throw the modem on the floor like you said and they are fired within a couple of days.

Arris does provide an installation kit that includes the cable and a 66 block and apparently that's what is in that picture. It can't be a full 25 pair or they wouldn't be able to crumple it up like that. (But I'm sure they would do something else that looks just as bad.)

Yeah, I saw that picture over at Cable Techs.org but I never noticed the Amphenol. I know Arris makes a bunch of "surfboard" type EMTAs and after Glacier identified the one in the picture as from Arris, well sure enough there it was. So now I can "gently point them in the right direction" next time I'm involved with this big of a job. Here it is, call me when you have them and I'll advise my customer.

-Hal

I always find it humorous how any CLEC seems to think that just plugging a pre-connectorized 25 pair cable into the OUTPUT side of an "RJ21X" (700A block) is appropriate. The cover even clearly states that it is supposed to be opened only by telephone company personnel. How is the customer supposed to make their connections on the INPUT side of the block when it is forbidden for them to open the cover?

And Hal, I am just saying that not all cable companies are like that.

Fine, I'll take your word for it but because one is doing something right someplace doesn't help the majority. Cablevision is one of the largest (if not THE largest) MSO and if they can't get their you know what together it follows that this is pretty much the norm for the industry.

I have nothing against any cable company, matter of fact I worked for and built this very system that was ultimately bought up by Cablevision many years later. That was way back in the analog days (and there is nothing left of my work) but my focus was still always on making sure the job was done right by anybody working under me.

Maybe your company management has people like me, but I can tell you that it's not what I'm seeing here. They figure subscribers will buy their service for $29.95/mo and nobody will give a damn about anything else.

-Hal

Glacier:

Do your employees run a white RG6 up the side of a $1,000,000 home, diagonally, across the dark brown cedar siding, then pop open a screen on the second floor, run the coax across the floor of the 2nd floor stairwell, down the hall to the computer, and then plug in just one telephone to the modem?

Then do they use duct tape to keep the screen closed? and slam the sash down so that it crimps the coax, and doesn't quite keep out the cold winds? And tell the customer, who had a key system working just fine before they got there, that the new telephone service won't work on a "business" system?

Just wondering.

Do your employees move a working 4-line modem from one address to another, just a half-mile away, then refuse to acknowledge that their company has a problem, when telephones, connected via the SAME modem, connected to the SAME key system, don't dial out correctly?

Do they show up several times, armed only with a test set and an attitude, and tell the unsuspecting customer that the fault is in the key system?

Do they watch, as a trained telephone technician, with thirty years of Bell System experience in every facet of the job, and ten years of private business experience, (some of it as an expert witness) armed with $3,000 worth of test equipment, demonstrates that the problem is NOT in the key system? And still maintain that the problem is not theirs?

Just wondering.

We join and contribute to this Forum for good reasons. We could be out enjoying ourselves, but we sacrifice some time each day to commiserate about companies like yours and the hosing that you are giving our customers. We take this seriously, and we don't enjoy being told that we are picking on people unnecessarily. These so-called "telephone" companies deserve every bit of the criticism that is thrown at them.

Why would a TV company think that they can understand telephony, without first, at least, hiring some engineers, instructors, and seasoned technicians to oversee the "work" that the cable monkeys do? In other words, would you ask your dentist to take out your appendix?

Just wondering.

Like I tried to state before, no matter what business you are in, their are people who do shoddy work. This is no different than me walking into a bad system install and saying all phone people do crappy work. As far as your example, I have seen it done, but not in the company I work for. I did spend 10 years doing system installs and structured cabling before this. The company wanted me to start cutting corners so I left. I am not saying all companies know what they are doing, but until you visit every company and check their work I think you should stick with the ones that you know have problems. Also, as an FYI, our company does have trained phone engineers and techs on hand. And MAYBE, just MAYBE, if some of you "holier that thou" phone techs would lose the attitude for a few minutes each day you could play nice and get along. SO now you know so you don't have to wonder anymore. :thumb:

We are pretty lucky in this area. Most CATV companies won't do any inside work at all, but in the cases where they do, they seem to do OK. There are a few things that they do, like using white PVC plumbing pipe to protect the underground drop wire that rubs me the wrong way. That is cheesy-looking, but I don't think that the individual installers have any say in the matter about that kind of thing.

On the opposite end of things, Cox does a lot of high-end service here, like PRI's and T1's. I've been pretty impressed with the work that they've done on installations.

I think that the real culprits for making messes in this area are the sub-contracted installers being paid unit pricing for installs. There is no doubt that those are "wham-bam, thank you mam" installs since volume = more money for them. Our cable system where I live used subs when it was Adelphia, but since Comcast took over, it seems like everything is done by company employees or at least reasonable facsimiles.

Seems like the satellite system installers are by far the worst since it appears that these are almost exclusively installed by fixed-price subs. They are getting better, but they are still far from perfect installations.

I will say that I miss the days of dealing with a smaller cable company when it came to calling them. We could talk to someone local and even go over to the local office if we needed hardware. Now, I'm not sure where the people we call are. I guess that is the same all over the place anymore.

Glacier, I think you are taking this way too personally. If you and the cable company you work for have taken steps to address these problems then I commend you and your company. But others, it seems, just want to cash in on building a telephone subscriber base as quickly as possible. It may be also that there is a race going on because of direct competition from Verizon and Fios. Another reason may be to acquire as many subs as possible before the rates have to be raised because of the government imposing taxes and tariffs as they do on real telephone companies.

Whatever the reason, there is no excuse for poorly trained techs, not supplying the proper material and equipment and sloppy installations.

-Hal

Out of curiosity, do cable companies have a QC/QA group checking installs before paying the sub-contractors? Or even follow ups on the company installers?

I've never seen anyone or even had a call from either the cable or satellite companies after an install.

Shannon, you are correct, a lot of phone guys (including me) complain about the work done by others. Because of the way we were trained in the old days. When are you going to have the time to do it right? Only the first time.

And how did it work? Currently, guys are trained OJT. If they don't catch on, well, in my world, it's down the road they go.



.02

Ken, our company currently has QC/QA person for each region and the do a complete check of 6 jobs per tech per month. If you score poorly they check more the next month until you start doing better. Subcontractors get half of all of their jobs checked to start and if they are doing poorly, they are gone.

Around here I see so many subconractors...from Cable Express, to a guy with a ladder and a little magnet on his truck that says subcontractor for Time Warner...
I'm a member of the Cable Techs forum, and I see plenty of pictures of bad installs that they run into, just like we do with phones.

I don't necessarily blame the techs or subcontractors, I blame management. I remember we had a well stocked warehouse for what we were doing at that time (we were building plant). If we suggested something that we didn't have they would get it. Even the subs could go in and help themselves.

As for QC, that was one of my jobs also and if a company tech found crappy work during a visit to a sub work he was to report it and we would follow up. Not sure what happens in other companies today, I've never seen any QC people.

-Hal

The last place I saw QC was with Level 3 when we built out one of their big nodes here in NYC (this was about 18 months ago). Their people came by and made sure that none of our lacing stitches crossed over, that we had just the right amount of threads hanging out the bottom of the rods (below the nuts), that every piece of equipment was independently grounded and that the rack had been burnished down to bare metal where you tied down the ground wire etc, etc. My favorite though was that they insisted that the 5/8" & 7/8" nuts (at the end of the threaded rod) were installed with the round side down. Of course they were also concerned with whether you had installed the right cable and whether it and the associated equipment worked or not. But to look at all the nuts to see if they were installed flat side up!

They were tough!

During the dot-com boom the companies we installed backbone fiber for MFN, RCN, AT&T etc) all had Q&A/QC inspectors. They were mostly retired Bell System or Independent (GTE, Contel, etc) foremen. They wanted good work but they weren't as nuts as the Level 3 guys.

As the dot-com boom grew the companies ran out of retired Telco guys and started hiring kids. They were significantly less demanding. I kept our level of work up to what it had always been, but it was harder to keep the guys motivated knowing that the inspector was sleeping in his car instead of watching you.

QC/Q&A is expensive and I imagine that's one place that folks these days cut corners.

Sam

Basically thats what all "Cable" techs do! As far as using Arris equipment... thats fine but most system operators cant sweep for noise, noise is the big killer in any plant and without question is a primary factor why MSO's "phone" service sucks so bad.

I can speak on this with much experiance as I have personally installed about 3,000 residential, and 200 buisness eMTA's and to be very honest talked many of people out of switching. I did this after dealing with all the problems for three years. Needless to say on year number four I quit!

MSO cable modem telephone is a terrible solution for any sort of business, and for that matter a terrible solution for most residential customers. Do you really want a 40 dollar cable modem made in hong kong, supported by india, and maintained by an 9 dollar an hour technician with 4 months on the job? If you answerd yes call your local MSO and wait on hold for three hours to save 25 bucks for an 80% uptime guarntee!

An update on this. The "project" has been progressing due entirely to my efforts. We have a "wall of modems" that is literally a 36 inch wide backboard floor to ceiling! We are waiting for Cablevision to provide the last four lines that, for some reason they are dragging their butts on.

Just to show how Cablevision is not capable of providing business class voice service- it's not unusual for one company to divide their lines up into groups and be billed separately for each for accounting purposes. Since Cablevision is stuck in the cable TV days they provided six separate accounts, six drops to the premises and six separate groups of EMTAs which means that there are unused ports on many. There are eight four line EMTAs for only twenty lines. THAT'S why we have the wall of modems, a monument to stupidity.

-Hal

Hal,
Are these lines ported from a local CO? If so their is a good chance the business will not be able to port them back. Not sure
the reason but that is what happens here.

This install guideline is pathetic! Six drops? How do they manage attenuation? These eMTA's without some sort of balancing
can't possibly meet manufactures signal/noise standards. Arris for example is very picky, they generally range to a specific
set of frequencys trying to connect to the server. If the signal is too high it will stand to reason that also true the snr
will be near the noise floor. If this is the case the eMTA will range constantly resulting in dropped calls, and dropping
connectivity.

Can you post pictures of this install? What are they doing for cross connects? Thats got to look real funny! It goes to show
that the cable operators really need to be regulated much more!

You asked in your first post about amphenol and so on. Yes they can do something along those lines. To my knowledge at least
10 diffrent MTA's provide an amphenol connection with 25 pairs to the 66. Commercial and MDU services do have a new rollout
planned, thus one piece of equipment will serve multiple lines.

Here are some links;
https://www.arrisi.com/product_catalog/listers/index.asp?id=393 <-- Can support 12 lines
https://www.arrisi.com/product_catalog/listers/index.asp?id=409 <-- T1 like

It is my oppinion that a majority of the MSO's launched services to build a base, yet had no idea what to do when they got that
base. Headends and Systems got neglected, as a result customers paid the price. Its sad, but true.

Are these lines ported from a local CO? If so their is a good chance the business will not be able to port them back.

You and I are aware of that, now it's time to make the customer aware of that.

This install guideline is pathetic! Six drops? How do they manage attenuation?

8 port tap off the feeder out in the telecom closet.

What are they doing for cross connects?

They are doing nothing. I wouldn't let them touch it! I installed the backboard, laid it out and hung the modems and backups on it. Made them stand there and learn something. I provided a 6 foot outlet strip and routed the RG-6 down one side. All I would let them do is provision them. We have 4 pair breakout cables that we normally use for the CO lines on our KSU installations that use RJ-11s. Perfect for this also. One from each modem to a split 66 block, 50 pair cable over to where the system cross connect is, then another split 66 block next to the Verizon demarc. At that point everything is cross connect wire so everything comes off the Verizon block and gets put on the Cablevision block. Not something that they would know how to do in their wildest dreams.

I'll try and get some pictures when it's finished.

-Hal

Intresting stuff. Your cleanup/install works well. Though I must point out a semi funny fact. How much did this "savings switch" actually save them with all the time you have on site and the chaos they have been subjected to?

Oh well, Its a shame people dont google Comcast, Cablevision, Charter or Time Warner phone before they order. run any of those and all you find is horror stories.

How much did this "savings switch" actually save them with all the time you have on site...

Well, I'll put it this way- that monthly savings isn't going to kick in for at least 6 months.

-Hal