Here in MA the Union is pushing very hard
to make it mandatory that all people working with low voltage including installation of phone systems be licensed as an electrician.

I was wondering if this was a local or national phenomenon? What do you think about this? Possitives and negatives?


Corwyn

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

sounds like BS to me. Haven't heard of it anywhere else. Unions used to protect the workers, now they seem to do more harm than good.

Based on the number of times we need to fix jacks, run new wiring after the electrician daisy chained cable etc.. it seems like the electricians should be looking at additional requirements/training before they enter our world not us having to meet their requirements to continue doing our job the same way we have been doing it for years!!

This has come up every few years since I started in the business in 1984. Do you really think the CWA union is going to pay to get all thier techs certified? This is just the ongoing rant between the IBEW and the CWA.
mark

HEre in Oregon it has been around for at least 10 years.

I personnally have gone through a 4 year apprenticeship program. The 2 year one only allows 2 non-lifesaftey endorsements (i.e. paging and CATV)

The 4 year apprenticeship took a total of 5 years to complete due to all the B.S.

That tracked hours worked under a liscenced journeyman, but only pulling cable(programming systems doesn't count towards the hours). In addition to that, I had to go to some expensive schooling pertaining to the NEC and other crap. NOW they have instituted a program tat requires 32 hours additional code related traqining AND 16 ours of code change classes. Total $500.00.
When I sat for my exam, I had questions pertaining to 3 phase, "luminares", what type of conduit does a 240V circuit in an unfinished basement require, and what Kcmils does the ground wire for a 440v transformer need to be.

That really pertains to low voltage right?

Additionally we need to have permits to pull Data cable BUT NOT VOICE ( ALLOWS AN OUT FOR THE QWEST UNION)

I understand trying to improve the wiring practices, such as not having 300 pounds of cable laying on the ceiling tiles, but I feel they went a little overboard.

I'm in the middle of tonnng out 600 cables because the highly trained electricians don't know how to label fricken cables correctly.

Also I have noticed most of the people behind thse changes are also profitting the most from hosting these expensive classes.
Gotta love the Unions.

I think RI has the same rule it was a while ago they did it…. They grandfather in telecom workers who could prove they were in the business for 5 years.

Just another way for the union to get you to pay and pay

Its all about another way to collect membership dues......THATS IT!!!!!!

It's in the state of Conn. and parts of New York and it all comes from IBEW who think they are the only people in the world that can run cable

Is there a site or resource to find info on their activities/proposals etc.

It might be nice to know what they're up to and maybe be able have an input or counterpoint.

C

Usually it is with the Bureau of Labor and Industry.

BOLI and most all State Agencies are already Union, of course if they're "real brothers" they would get the IBEW in the Money Loop.

The IBEW planned this so they wouldn't take any union heat but still get their cut of the money from dues. All this program would have to do is put IBEW on their letterhead and everything else is all ready in place.

We have to target out of state employees who can verify related industry hours and pass the test instead of playing the State of Oregon's Limited/Restricted Energy Apprenticeship BS game instead of being forced to hire someone who signed up at some night school bulliten board ad 4 years ago with no experience.

I was a tech for 7 years, then got into the sales engineering & design side of the industry for the last 13 years before this BS was in place and the State says I'm not qualified to pull in data or fiber. Even if it was for my mom. They don't have any pathways for "homeboys" who have been in the industry forever but, might need to help pull in a drop now and then. I can see why, What if I didn't ground my Fiber Strands and got shocked while terminating it???

Oh, I am sure that little strand of glass couldn't handle much voltage, so you would be okay. LOL

In suffolk county NY. as of 2 years ago you need to have a restricted electrician license to run low voltage cable... as someone else said...just another for the county to make money.

Walter

I have owned a cable install co.in N.Y. for 6 yrs. I have 7 employee's and none of us are licensed to pull cable.We have pulled cat 5, fiber,coax and many other low voltage cables through NYC schools ,hospitals and every other office out there.I am requiered to pay union wages but thats it.IBEW local 3 and 25 harass us all the time but as long as my payroll books are up to date they cant do a damn thing.They send in the goon squad once in a while but my guys are not easily intimidated.We have families and homes to support to.

If the electricians don't want us pulling cable, then maybe we should start requiring them to pull out and replace every cable that doesn't meet our specs, at no extra charge. Skinned cable? Wire nuts? Pinched or kinked? Make them do it over and over until they get it right. Maybe they'll get the idea when they don't get paid for all that extra work.

What's involved in starting a new union?

Seriously though, what about us putting pressure on the telephone systems manufacturers to support us in grand fathering us in or something.

We spend $1000s paying them for certifications and buying NFS units to have the privilege/right to sell their product(s). What about getting them to step up to the plate to say that unless wiring is done and or certified by an authorized system dealer, they will not honor the warranty. (they already do this with non-authorized dealers) If the electricians want to pull the wire LET THEM! One of us will have to go in and
inspect the wiring before the system can be installed and guess what - inspection and certification costs $100 per run.

How much money do the MFGs spend in customer service calls that are related to things like poor sound quality because electricians connected wiring with a nut or even better electrical tape?
How many times have you heard a customer say something along the lines of “ I hate this phone system because the sound quality is terrible” to find out that it’s caused by poor wiring installation that has nothing to do with the system?


Corwyn

No wonder you hate electricians.
Here in Australia we have two seperate licensing boards.
Telecomms & Power should always be kept seperate both in legislation and licensing.
Recently it became mandatory for Security Alarm installers to be licensed under the Communications Authority because their system could be connected to the PSTN.

system manufactures will not take such an action because it would cost them sales unless it was done by all at the same time. we just test the cables w/ penta or fluke, if they don't pass then we replace jacks, that fixes 90%, then new cable and charge for labor and parts. put in all work orders and contracts, existing cable must pass industry standards or
can't gaurantee performance of the phone attached. on any big job if cust balks just eat bad cables if needed to keep but out of fire.

I just don't see what the big deal is. We hire union and non-union all the time depending on the job then "we" inspect it to make sure it's to code and our standards. The only person thats hurt by Unions is that the customer has to pay more. Generally I haven't seen a big difference in the quality of work, but then again we are picky on who we have running cables for us and our customers.

I would Like to see some electricians come work with me on some old 1A2 systems. Yes they are still out there working. Better yet I would invite them and teach about diode matrix riging. Anyone remember the old A to K and K to A set conversion? Maybe we can start by learning how to replace a bad lamp fuses. Jee, Why are all the lights start flashing when I CPC two or more WE 2564 sets together? An electricians license wont't help you with this stuff. Hey, has anyone ever got to work on a old 701. Got a service call a few years ago and one of the ring generators failed. I think they called an electrician but he couldn't fix it.

I see this is your first post. Be aware that there are many guys here who still know and do 1A2. I cut my teeth on it but now haven't seen any in the metro area for several years.
You know your old when you think 1A2 is easy compared to the software reliant products of Y2K. This thread will probably burn up now, once you mention 1A2, all us old timers can't resist joining in.
mark

Lets take it the other way, would it only be a limited connect disconnect Electrical licence or are you supposed to be a fully licenced electrician. I had to do a four year apprenticeship to get my elcetrician's licence. And Yes I have my Comms and Data licence and am certified on three different systems (I know it's not many, there are most likely others who have alot more certifications than me).

[This message has been edited by dtu (edited October 13, 2004).]

I am a memeber of IBEW 103 . They contacted me to join only because they needed old timers to work on this stuff. I was not old at the time but learned from old timers. It's probably the only way you could learn this old stuff at the time. As far a the license goes for low voltage, they promised Teldata memebers that alarms would be included in the Low voltage license. This never happend and most likely never will.

Station Specialties, I like your screen name. I still have my old Bell System Station Specialties manual, great for 685 subsets, 4A Speaker Phones and lots of other neat stuff. I still have all my Bell System key service manuals, data services manuals and lots of Horizon and Dimension manuals. I have worked a lot of 1A2 and a couple of 1A1 systems with the hardwired relays and the screw connections on the back of the KTU's. After 34 years in the business I have seen a lot of changes and most not for the better. I agree totally about being licensed as an electrician to do telephone work, its like talking apples and oranges. Most electicians have no concept of telephone wiring or telephone systems. The reason a lot of them daisy chain is to make more money quickly. Instead of making home runs they wire to the nearest jack because many of them charge by the jack.

Electricians.......

2 wire hook up,

3 wire mess up!!!

NECTEC, Yes, I have all of the old bell system manuals. One of them is called station specialties. I was lucky to have my father who worked for New England telephone then he Went to ATT at the Split. His dad Also worked for the Phone Company and was a Central office engineer. I have lots of old manuals. One of them is Called Apparatus Common to Manual and Dial Central Offices from The Western Electric Installation Department. I was fortunate enough to get into this business with a bunch of patiant Old timers who worked on Just about everything. Before My Dad retired Hes was teaching guys Ckt. Diagrams on the New # 5 ESS. My granfather Used to tell my dadh it's all about understanding traffic. Even after my Granfather retired the phone company used to call him up to still fix the Giant phone systems of the past that took up multiple floors in large buildings. (701)

With the advent of Power over Ethernet (esp in switches / wireless routers / VoIP equipment) I can begin to understand requiring folks to be certified as electricians...

Again everything is converging into the telecom domain ...




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NEC Unified Solutions / Voice Mail and Unified Messaging | Active Voice, LLC

If and when Low voltage ever requires a License it may be a good thing. When that happens will you need a permit to install a electric train set for your kid? Will you then have to get it inspected? Will your homeowners insurance cover you when your house burns down over a train set? Will radio Shack only sell paging amps to you if you have a low voltage license? I will never forget what my dad showed me about the dangers of 1a2 key equipement. He showed how they can start a fire if your 18 to 24 volt lamp power suppy wasn't properly fused and the system was not properly grounded. On the other hand, on three different instances I have found the suspended ceiling grid alive with power enough to knock you right off your ladder. My point is electricity must be respected! Even working on low voltage. How many of us have seen foreign voltages other than dial tone at the Demark?

Here in good ol North Carolina you are suppose to have a sp-lv electrical license to do any communications work also the Alarm Board requires it as well. We had a class at the electrical board for our ceu's amd the instructor told us it was a bunch of crap. He took a 50volt transformer and shorted it out and said if it catches fire ill kiss all of your asses.

Sorry double post....

[This message has been edited by JOHNYREB (edited October 19, 2004).]

I'm sure we all will be required at some point to get a license. I currently work for someone else, but I have seriously considered going down and getting a business license for doing telephone work just in the event that they do start requiring a low voltage license, I would be "gradfathered" in. It might save a whole lot of expense and hassle down the road. A $20 dollar a year business license seems like cheap insurance.

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What happened to the folks that tried Preperation A thru G?

[This message has been edited by JOHNYREB (edited October 19, 2004).]

In the area I live/work in (big IBEW area). electricians think they can do it all, but can't back the talk up with any action. I was IBEW for last 5 yrs, ( non-union previous 9). Unions protect lazy workers and give customers alot of attitude. lol. For the most part, electricians in the union don't care for comm guys in same union. ( at least here). Thanks for letting me vent.

So, Scott, maybe you can answer a couple of questions I have had for years about electrical work in the Chicago area.

Why in the world, except to protect union interests, is metallic conduit still required for electrical wiring there, even in new houses?

My second, and less important question is why electrical outlets in Chigago are installed horizontally instead of vertically? Somebody has to realize that this ridiculous since switches are installed properly (vertically). Electricians will install outlets horizontally in the same countertop area where switches are installed properly. What's up with this?

My guess is that the local union just has their way of doing things and they make sure nobody else can change them. I have to wonder though, are the local Home Depot stores prohibited from selling Romex cable and plastic boxes? It's obvious that they can't be installed legally in Chigago.

Thanks for resurrecting this topic. Unions, Licenses and permits are a huge pet-peeve to me, but I bite the bullet because if I don't, the local will make sure that I take a bullet instead.

what local are you hearing this out of? i work in 2222 our of boston and have heard nothing about any proposals in our area.. my only gripe with non company installers / electricians is when they use substandard junk wire and jacks for their inside jack runs.. but its people saving a buck or 2 that keeps me in overtime..

Actually EV, I do most of my work in the St. louis area, as I am across the river from there and work for an NEC vendor there. But to me it sounds like the union throwing their weight around up there. I always thought it was a trademark of IBEW electricians to install receptacles with the ground up, until I actually found out it really is code, lol.

I always thought it was a trademark of IBEW electricians to install receptacles with the ground up, until I actually found out it really is code, lol.

:rofl: Who told you it was code? One of those IBEW thugs? There is NOTHING in any code that specifies which way a receptacle should be orientated, at least not the NEC. Install them sideways or at a 45 degree angle if you want!

-Hal

I shouldn't have stated " code", but certain places, i.e. hospitals and schools, they spec that receptacles be installed with ground pointing up. And if you look at the front of a receptacle, it actually does say top. But I'm a telecom guy (15 yrs), and it makes no difference to me HOW they are put in as long as my power cord still plugs into it.

certain places, i.e. hospitals and schools, they spec that receptacles be installed with ground pointing up.

That's a little different isn't it. Some guys prefer to put them on the top too but nothing makes them do it that way. If the customer wants them on top that's their prerogative not code.

And if you look at the front of a receptacle, it actually does say top.

Never saw a receptacle that had "top" marked on it. Decora style switches have "top" on the yoke, but that's because the single poles don't have "on and off" on the lever like the toggles do so you need to know which end is up.

I do notice that they do use the same metal yoke on all their devices so maybe you saw Decora receptacles. If so it's irrelevant.

-Hal

And then come in a try to plug in a Valcom amplified speaker transformer, or any Alarm transformer when the Ground is placed on the top. What a bunch of boobs!!

Hal is right. There is no NEC requrement. I've heard of local jurisdictions imposing their own rules on this, but I've never come across it.

The concept has gained acceptance and I think Delmar is teaching it now. Not only do they suggest ground up, but the outlet is installed horizontally, it is supposed to be installed with the Neutral Leg up for the same reasons.

Guess if you use Hal's idea and mount them at a 45 degree angle you'd have to have the Ground and Neutral Legs up. :rofl:

hmm..

i think if the union did anything they would push all techs to get "rated" which would cost the company more up front 100$ a week and long term with higher pension bands..

Hey, MacGyver, when I did electrical work professionaly and now just for myself, I always have kept the neutral side of the receptacle down on horizontal installations. The reason for this has been because having the hot side up, where you can keep an eye on it, you don't risk the possibility of an accidental short against the side of a metal box when removing or installing it. Yes, I usually work it hot unless it's really risky. If you slip with the neutral side and hit the box, the worst that can happen is that you may trip a GFI.

I never got an answer about the fact that any wiring in Chigago must be in metal conduit, even in newly-constructed wood frame homes, not to mention the horizontal receptacle issue.

Anyone have a clue? I think I know the answer, and maybe anyone who knows is afraid to answer for fear of ending up at the bottom of a foundation footing or in the lake with a cinder block tied to their ankles. I really am hoping that there's a more legitimate reason for such a ridiculous requirement.

To me, it seems like a cat pissing to mark his territory. Show everyone that your work is done by "UxxxN" labor to scare away competition.

If you all don't hear from me in the next day or so, you will know why.

The alleged reason (according to the Delmar books) for keeping the Neutral Leg up is the same as for keeping the Ground up. It's supposed to be so that if a metal coverplate was to become dislodged and fall against the prongs it would hit Ground or Neutral.

Seems a little unlikely since when a coverplate usually comes dislodged it's because the plastic plate broke.

Go figure.

BTW, I usually always wire hot too. :toothy:

I believe commercial code in Pa. wants the hot side down on horizontal installs or the ground lug up on vertical. I think because if a plug is partially out of the socket and a coat hanger or metal object or toy falls into contact with the lugs it will ark or short out or both. This is prevented by the neutral or ground on top.

Ed, I had a discussion about Chicago's code maybe a year or so ago with an electrician from that area. Since I like pipe he even sent me several pictures of a house he had just roughed. Amazing!

Anyway, you are right, the union is influential enough to have their way. And this is a way to help keep homeowners and trunk slammers from doing electrical work.

Does HD and other places there sell Romex? Don't remember but I kind of think that the union put the kibosh on that too. Remember, you can't even use BX (AC) or MC armored cable there, only pipe with short lengths of Greenfield for whips where necessary.

-Hal

I was going to ask if flex was allowed or if it all had to be rigid. I have heard stories about wiring in Chicago. I'm guessing there aren't many residential electrical fires there.

Not necessarily rigid, most are done with EMT. Makes it a little easier.

-Hal

I thought that this may be something that dates back to "The Chicago Fire". Maybe that is the reason, but it still seems a bit excessive. I only know of this from watching home improvement shows. For some reason, many of them are produced and filmed in the Chicago area. I still just don't see how they can justify requiring EMT in a new residence. Even in remodels, they have to destroy walls to run EMT. Yes, I have seen them use Greenfield (flex) for short runs, for example to under-cabinet light fixtures, but other than that, it's 100% pipe. There's no doubt that an electrician who can rough-in wood framed houses using EMT has to be good, I mean really good. I am pretty good at bending pipe, but even I have a hard time understanding this one.

EMT is what I meant. I thought about the term rigid after I wrote it. I was using incorrect terminology for "other than flex."

I'm with you Ed. I'm a pretty good pipe bender, but that seems excessive. The Chicago Fire may have been the selling point, but... and this is just my opinioin, but it seems that if a union can get this type of ordinance passed, then they have effectively doubled the amount of electrical work to be done in Chicago.

Don't get me wrong I'm a Capitalist. I believe in making money ever single day, and if the houses are safer then that's good too. I just think that was probably the real reason behind spearheading the code.

"The entire financial industry exists to sell product. If you don't understand this basic maxim, you'll be misled time after time." - Timothy Vick

I am a member of IBEW local 26 down here in DC and we actually have a separate certification. I am currently rated thru our local as a tele-data tech. it allows us to work on anything low voltage except fire alarm systems.The union really isn't pushing for manditory license. however we do go and get jurisdictional low voltage licenses.

What do you think the reason is the union will not let you work on , or certify you for low voltage fire alarm systems ? Just curious .

Edited for clarity .

MacGyver,

You would be VERY wrong if you think that there aren't many residential electrical fires in Chicago. I cringe everytime that I hear about another Chicago electrical fire because I know the condition of the wiring in most Chicago homes - very hazardous.

Rubber and cloth wiring predominate. Both in thick walled conduit and old BX. Most of this wiring has grossly deteriorated and will crumble at any movement or touch. Old fixture boxes, switch boxes, and junction boxes are the ignition source of many Chicago fires.

The union controlled electrical code of "all steel everywhere" makes it impossible to re-wire an occupied Chicago home. As someone figured out, the only practical way to rewire a residential building in Chicago is to rip out the walls for the installation of EMT. Very few homes are rewired until the home is vacant and someone with lots of money comes along and guts it. The going rate (2005) for a gut rehab of a typical two story frame Chicago home is $100,000. One story Chicago bungalow rehabs are cheaper, but still expensive and not as economical.

Most people need to occupy their home. They have to live with their old ratty wiring.

Wow, that's unbelievable. I kind of figured that the union must be the driving force behind the "all steel" thing because I know of no other part of the country where new home construction requires EMT.

So tell me, Vinn. Do you know why receptactles are mounted horizontally in Chigago? It really looks stupid in kitchens where you have receptacles and switches in the same area. Are phone jacks installed sideways as well? I am really curious about the whole Chicago way of doing things because it's truly unique to the rest of the country.

I did electrical work in NJ, NY and DC for years and I know what you are talking about when you mention old BX with brittle wire. We used to find many pancake boxes mounted on an old gas light pipe nipple and the gas line was still live! Talk about an invitation for disaster. Knob and tube isn't something I have had to deal with much, but they say that when you look at the basic concept, it's actually pretty safe with the exception of the missing ground conductor. It's kind of hard for a short to occur when the wires are a foot apart!

The house I Grew up in was set up this way (IN JERSEY ALSO). I just helped a good friend of mine put in a few phone and data jacks in his house. He still has the gas tubes run in the hallways. At least these have been disconnected in the basement

[/QB][/QUOTE]my only gripe with non company installers / electricians is when they use substandard junk wire and jacks for their inside jack runs.. but its people saving a buck or 2 that keeps me in overtime.. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Well, for $xxx - $xxx per cable run like the unions around here you better be using all top quality equipment. And not to be too out of line here but I think that us non-union guys go around fixing the union shops work just alittle bit more that you fix ours.
Unions...been there, done that...can't stand them or their work ethics.

edited for pricing

The union is the driving force behind the "all steel" thing, but they hide behind the Fire Marshall. For years the Chicago code included a "note" from the Chicago Fire Marshall stating that no combustible material could be used in electrical infrastructure which produces toxic fumes. Only high temp thermoplastic wire insulation is allowed.

Nevermind that the typical Chicago home has a many pounds of combustible toxic plastic and vinyl (many, many pounds if they have kids). A couple pounds of plastic wire jacket buried inside the walls is not going to produce a more toxic fire.

In 2001 the Chicago code was updated and all of the "notes", which had the effect of law, were eliminated. Instead they took a copy of the NEC and edited it to say the same "all steel" rules.

Another example of the power of the union is the fact that legally, no city is allowed to edit the text of the NEC. The NEC should only be customized by the addition of a local supplement. Chicago edited the actual text of the NEC and thumbed its nose that the rest of the country. Now Chicago electricans think that they are reading the NEC when they quote from the Chicago code. The formatting, numbering, and text are nearly identical, but the real words are much different.

I personally have "outgrown" putting receptactles horizontally. As someone else mentioned, the
reason I was given for keeping the Neutral Leg up is that if something falls on a plug that is not fully flush against the outlet, it hits the Neutral spade. A verticle receptactle would produce a crowbar short across both spades. As far as the orientation for install or maintenace, I have developed a habit of putting tape all the way around an outlet, over the screws, when I install or work on it. So if I bump the metal box, it doesn't matter which side bumps.

Ironically, I prefer to wire receptacles with the hot side up, so it's easy to keep your eye on it with a metal box. Still, the other reason makes more sense I suppose.

Wow, I knew that the situation in Chicago must have had something to do with the union because I can't see how builders make any money on new homes under those rules. I guess they just pass it on to the purchaser. You are right, though about other combustible items like PVC plumbing, sheet flooring, telephone wire, etc.

Wow, that just made me think of something. Do they not allow the use of PVC conduit either?

So the horizontal receptacle thing is just a preference that took off in popularity and stayed there?

PVC plumbing has only been legal for a few years in Chicago. And only for waste, not supply. Probably it was held back by the unions with the same "toxic fumes" excuse. A few years ago soil pipes had to be either cast iron or solid copper. Some homes have 4" solid copper soil pipes ($$$). I almost had to get one when I had a cast iron pipe crack. I was able to repair it until PVC became legal.

PVC conduit is legal only for certain underground applications. Like encased in concrete. Otherwise you have to dig down much deeper then for steel conduit. Most people use steel rather than do the extra digging. There is not a chance that PVC conduit will become legal for interior exposed work in Chicago anytime soon.

As you can guess Chicago is slow to change their ways. They make up their own code and do not adopt the NEC in any form or fashion. I think that once the practice of installing receptactles horizontally became common it was followed like it was the Chicago law. Because the code is so goofy, it's not wise to do anything differently then the last job that passed inspection.

I mentioned on another thread that in Idaho the union got a simple 3 sentence bill passed to "update the code" and put every type of wire needing a permit and a licensed installer. We got wind of it, formed a coalition from all over the state, and got it soundly defeated (actually, the electrical board had egg on their face and pulled their rules before it went for final approval the next year). It would have made it illegal for an average citizen to hook up a surround sound at his neighbors or put in a coax jack at a rental property he owned.

Bad law, special interest, and the legislature, once informed, saw it for what it was and were very supportive of our efforts (once educated).

Well, Vinn, I am not surprised. More union BS.

If any of you notice me missing from this place in the next week or so, you will know that I have probably become part of a footing of a Chicago high-rise for reasons "unknown".