I got a call today from a Dentist in town here who needed extensions hooked up to his old 'shiba 6e.........

He ran the 4 cables and EVEN terminated them on a 66 block....(Home Depot to the rescue)....

I came in and crossconnected them into the system.......

IS THIS WHAT IS HAPPENING TO OUR BUSINESS????????

Same thing happend to me last week, Real Estate office calls and said they need 2 phones installed with cable, when I schedule my day
accordingly I arrive on site and the owner tells me he already ran the cable and installed the jacks, and believe me he did it himself, he ran 1 cable but split the pairs to 2 locations, I was there the next day after he called so it wasnt that I was slow to get there, he just wanted to save a buck. I see it more everyday!!
Rick

Despite my negetivity in the post
ibew - elecrical license required
I find it nice to be able to "call in" an inspector for unauthorized wiring for those customers that we could care less about. At the same time, some times it is nice not having to crawl and get dirty.

[This message has been edited by BillFlippen (edited September 13, 2004).]

They are buying kits over the I-Net , some kits include 66 punch down tools,allthough ,last month a Dr. 60 miles awat called ,he had purchased a "kit" and had local retired Telco outside plant Man Install, Long story short the I-net Company had sent out bad software version,outside plant man lost after Tip And Ring .$650 later I straightened out the whole system.

Hey Bill........running the cable is where we make the $$$$$$

it is just a sign of the economic times. most of the people who do that own there own business and it is usually small. They are just trying to save a few bucks like the rest of us. I can't blame them for that, but it is a shame that the internet and home improvement stores will sell anything to anyone. I don't think most people realize the work involved and the potential losses if done incorrectly. It is a good thing no one get's killed doing the LV stuff.

Everyone wants to be a phone guy
We make it look to easy

the key here is "EVERYBODY!!! wants to be a phoneman!!"

.... it's GREAT to be a phoneman!

If you think that is bad (and I do).
How about the customer that calls you and wants to add ten phones to the system and they tell you they bought the phones on the internet.
I see more and more of that everyday...

I do not know about you guys, but Mac work is the most profitable part of my business... other than service contracts..

Walter

"Momma dont let your babies grow up to be phonemen"
Sing to the toon of some country western song

General purpose rant:

ELECTRICIANS AND PHONES DO NOT MIX!

I don't know how many jobs have taken twice as long to complete because the customer had the electricians do the phone wiring that had to be completely replaced. Wire nuts, anyone? How about the standard twist & tape?

ELECTRICIANS AND PHONES DO NOT MIX!
_____________________________________

We should make that a bumper sticker

It's not like pulling cable is rocket science. Besides, low voltage stuff is hardley regulated. The money is realy in moves/adds/changes MAC and maint agreements. Just my 2 cents.

Just had a company also try to save money, had the electrician extend the demarc, after seven hours, yes you read correctly, seven hours later we were called in to correct the problem. Took ten minutes.

I love electricians!! When I am done the customer has paid twice as much as if they hired me the first time. When I am done cleaning up the mess, and it usually is a mess, the real professional shines.

Coral Tech wrote:

It's not like pulling cable is rocket science. Besides, low voltage stuff is hardley regulated. The money is realy in moves/adds/changes MAC and maint agreements. Just my 2 cents.
--------------------------------------------
You may have a point in the current state of things (though I tend to make a lot more on cabling. This is probalby do to my inability to bill the customer for every little thing they should be billed for. I tend to just say "oh forget it, just recommend me to the next person who asks you about phones" )

BUT and I think this is a BIG BUT! As telephone systems start to migrate more and more towards CTI and VOIP, cable performance IS becoming A MAJOR issue!

While we've been talking about the extreme screw ups by electricians, EVEN their standard "good" installs are a far cry from exceptable when it comes to certifying even a standard cat5 network. Now for most people who use a standard DSL connections
with a Linksys router and a standard NIC card this is fine. They are mostly opperating on a 10baseT which could really run on even cat3. But more and more providers are going to VOIP services -
Vonage and others. Verizon is rolling out fiber and offering single voice, internet and video etc. - and more and more systems are integrating unified messaging and other PC/network based features where speed is CRITICAL. In these types of applications the loss of 20, 30, or 40% performance due PURELY to fualty cable installation is going to cost you a SH8 load of service and trouble shooting calls that you will have a hard time billing to your customer unless you address the wiring prior to installation.

As more of my MFGs are rolling out VOIP systems which DEMAND high speed performace, never mind the powered network structure, I am investing in a cable and network tester to certify existing cable/network speeds besides it might be nice subincome) and telling customers that if their cat5e network rates are at 40 -50mb, which is typical from an electrician install, instead of the 100 it should be, perforamce issues will NOT be covered under warranty.

just my 2c.

Corwyn

You know not ALL Electricians make crap 'Phonemen'. I am a qualified Electrician and I'm also a qualified Data/Phone/Fibre Installer, with All relevant licences. Now I work as Communications Analyst managing/Programming 4 PABX's and associated comms/data infrastructure.

One company I used to work for, out of the 15 Electricians 10 of us were also Phone/Data certified. Yes I have seen the jobs in the past were everybody thinks they can do phone work. It's the DIY group that annoys me more especially when they start terminating their own cables and connecting anything up to the PSTN. Yeah everybody is trying to save a buck but it's killing the business. And it's usually the same companies who don't mind charging top dollar for their work/service who try and stiff the 'Phonemen'.

I used to also love going to jobs done by so-called 'Phonemen' who were licensed,who had know idea about cabling standards and didn't follow any of them.

[This message has been edited by dtu (edited September 29, 2004).]

Corwyn, I still contend even running cat5e and cat6 one only has to know VERY little to be very successful at doing it and doing it properly. I am certified to do it but generally sub it out as my time is devoted more to network/communications design and programming. No one is going to pay $150.00/hr for me to pull cable and terminate it. Thats not to say I haven't seen phone techs that have been doing this for endless years that still haven't figured out how to properly terminate on a 66 block and lock the damn things down..it boggles the mind. Seriously though, most people could sit through a graybar cert class and be ready to go. I mean, really it's not rocket science. Just my 2 cents.

My 2 cnets worth ---- back in '94 I worked for the company owned by the NECA president. Why? He told everyone in the NECA magazine that V/D was the future and he didn't have one. I also started a V/D group for another IBEW electrical company.
Now I am semi-retired/disabled vet and run my part time (over 20 years)telephone installation and repair company full time. Because in this small town I know which electricians haave had their people certified on V/D/FO. Which ones that have spent the money for the test gear and furnish test results. They are MY subs. When I go out to install I only have to do the equipment hard ware and set out the sets. I have the VM preprogrammed by a computer/cell phone guy and carry a modem for uploads/changes. As most of my systems are small on-site tele changes are easy. I work with several (the major players) computer guys in prepping for them. A lot of customers are looking for a good computer guy. He subs /or works in conjuction with me.

In a small town like this, customer service, reputation, and knowing more than just telephony means repeat customers.

Yes, I can make more money than pulling wires. My time is more important to me than just money --- my wife, my kids, grandkids, and my good name as the guy you go to to get it done. After forty years I'd better have learned someething.

My long einded two cents.

------------------

What exactly is happening to "our business"? Quite honestly a drunk monkey can pull a phone cable and put a jack on. Lets be honest here it isn't that hard. There are plently of customers out there that can't.

I am a high school student, and I have been doing some cabling work over the past couple of years. I have seen a lot of bad install jobs on the phone side, not only from electricians, but especially alarm guys. I had a new alarm put in this past summer, and when the installer wanted to put wirenuts on the wires on the RJ31X, I almost kicked him out of my house. I have also worked with many pros who have been in the field for many years, and they do a great job. I have basically been trained by these guys and I have seen the right way to install cabling and phone systems.

I concure with you that see "Everyone wanting to be a phone guy" as a problem within our industry. Not only is it a problem with people pulling cable but it is also a problem when you get an "End-User" wanting to do MAC and installation work. These people come to sites like this and pose as installers and unfortunately get help. Unfortunately and fortunately everyone that posts regularly on this site are good helpful people and are more than willing to help their Brothern. In order to protect each others revenue stream there must be a way of verifying who is and who isn't actually a "Phone Guy". Any suggestions.

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Buy-SamsungPhoneSystems.com

The days of key system installers having job protection are nearly over. Face it, they are easy to install and some now have GUI interfaces. I am quite certain we will be leaving the key system market again as we have found that it's basically not worth it anymore. 90% of the crap (maint) service calls are made from 10% of the ports we service ie. the key systems. They complain the most and pay the least. I don't know how anyone makes money in these size ranges IMHO. We have been playing with the small systems for a couple years now and IMHO the next board meeting I am voting to nuke them and go back to the larger systems as that is our bread and butter.

To show you how easy it is to install a phone system for the newby, I was at my distributor about a week ago and their on the counter where cd's put out by Panasonic showing how to install the 624 and vm.

Ask them some "Phone Guy" questions, like "Tell, in order, the primary and secondary colors in a 25 pair cable" or "Describe the different USOC interfaces", or "What are split pairs and why should it be avoided". That should weed out a few of them.


------------------
Together We Prosper

Don't forget things like the other 4 buttons on a true dtmf keypad, how the terms tip & ring originated, and what a 2500 set is.

Just one comment as far as job protection. Somebody mentioned earlier that GUI applications are making it to easy for systems to be programmed. This is true. However, systems are getting more and more feature rich and detail orientated when it comes to programming. The further the systems advance the more features there are to program. So to sum it up, the end user that has a GUI application is going to be faced with a thousand or so different options to program with the laptop. So they are probably not going to know even where to start. My thoughts anyway !

All of these post's I have found both interesting and true. This is one of the hardest times when anyone can go and get the materials to do what they believe they can do.
The most important thing for me to be concerned with, as someone stated earlier, is to have the proper testing equipment and cover my rear with my guarantee's in regard to the performance of cabling that someone else has installed.
Owning a small business is tough and I am sure that they (small business owner) wants to cut costs. But I give several examples and references in regards to the quality of my work, as well as, the cost benefits of doing it right the first time. More often than not the customer sees my point of view.

Part of sales is to earn trust, and part of installer is to keep it and build it.

steve

Real phone men terminate 25pr on 66 blocks from the bottom up starting with the VS. Ask my why?

They also don't lock them down after terminating them.

Lay the wires in from the bottom up cut em down from the top.This way the tail part don't get in the way of the next pair as you lay em in.

------------------

Real phone men, or old(er) phone men? :-) (No disrespect intended).

"Don't forget things like the other 4 buttons on a true dtmf keypad,"

Having been in the communications business for over 30 years, I have no idea what you're talking about. I doubt very much whether too many people on this board remember the old special use phones with the A,B,C&D at the end of each row. I understand they are still used by the military in some cases. Since no one else has asked this I assume they all know what 4 buttons you're talking about.
Bill

No, we just didn't want to sound stupid or like unreal phone men.

I thought I was the only one on the planet that wired from the bottom up and then cut from the top down. Guess I'm not a genius after all. Oh well.
mark

OK junkman you're on, I'm not the only one. Also it's Tip Ring Sleeve...Glad I'm not the only one. Could you mean MF?? Few extra keys there. As far as the 2500 set goes, I can go a lot farther back than that! Can you say magneto!!!
Bill

5years,
none taken...whipper snapper

[This message has been edited by justbill (edited December 30, 2004).]

You guys say "old"?? --- drop in off I-70 at Abilene KS for the Eisenhower museum and look at the independent telephony museum right behind it. And to think I remember when it was new. Used most of it.

et tu bruta

Its all about speed markk....when im cutting 100 tails or a ton of feed cables its the only way to do it.....Gap Pa.....whats going on there. And I thought hicksville was a bad name for a home town..Happy New Year guys

Congrats, justbill, tip-ring-sleeve from the operator's plug, kinda like a stereo headphone plug. MF used different tones and was primarily for co & ld operator use. DTMF tones are not on even frequencies like MF to eliminate harmonic interference. The A-B-C-D tones were primarily used on the military's phone network for message priority, an urgent message could disconnect an existing call to get a free line. A, B, & D are still used for inband VM integration.

I guess I am a whipper snapper. I didn't know that was where the A, B, C, and D used in VM integration came from. I did wonder, though. Now I can finally stop looking for the A key on my phone!

So are they still DTMF? Or MF?

.

[This message has been edited by 5years&counting (edited January 03, 2005).]

5years, dtmf, as junkman stated mf used over the network. Memory says had a KP and ST key. You'd know it if you heard it, very fast. You're only a whipper snapper cause I ain't. (been around awhile)
Bill

Just wanted to add for anyone who wanted to know it was as follows

123A
456B
789C
X0XD I put XX cause the first didn't have * and #
and did you know the first TT keypads were like and adding machine
789
456
123
0
didn't take.
OK aged myself enough
Bill

[This message has been edited by justbill (edited January 02, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by justbill (edited January 02, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by justbill (edited January 02, 2005).]

Now you know 5years, why your a whippier snapper and I ain't, way too many brain farts and probably still ain't right. Hope the New Year bring Y'all peace and prosperity.
Bill

OK, I am NOT a "phoneman", so I don't qualify as an authority on what requires a "phoneman's" expertise. I'm a data guy. Not who contracts out, a captive one, working for a manufacturing company. We've got almost twice as many computers as phones, lol.

I can qualify as an expert on what we DIY'ers think that we can do. We can find out damn near anything on the internet. Copy/paste this: "primary secondary colors cable 25 pair" into google and see what you come up with. So it's not just that we can get any hardware we want, we can get the information we need, too.

Wheels, you are right. If you know the color code for a 25 pr cable, that's all you need to know to be a "phoneman". I know how to plug in my laptop, guess that makes me an "IT guy".

I come from the data side and have been working telcom now for 10+ years. Two totally different worlds. Computers are expected to fail phones are not. The sheer amount of leeway you get with the computer network going down as opposed to the phone system is night and day. And here is the real kicker....most companies spend 10x what they spend on communications equipment. I think this is why most IP systems don't work with a crap because the network topology is generally never properly laid out. I cannot tell you how many times I have had to hold an IT managers hand to show them how to properly set up a data network. Which is interesting because all the IT managers have to know anymore is XP...usually they have VERY limited knowledge on everything else.

Yep, I am ready to be a Network Administartor! I got my 3 computer network up and running at home! IBM here I camoe!

Wow!! "Network Administrator", does that mean you get more money AND a title?

Sorry guys, didn't mean to belittle anyone's skills. All I meant to point out is I guess what you already know about us DIY'ers.

I appreciate the people on this board, you guys have been a great help in me looking at the capabilities of different phone systems. Coral especially has been very forward and open in sharing his knowledge and helping me to make a good decision. So, really, thanks to all of you, especially those who are truly helpful.

I understand your opinion's about IT guys and, well, we're all different. I try to judge the phone guys I meet on an individual basis because, as far as I can tell, they're all different too.

Again, sorry for sticking my nose in.

No problem. I have been working on computers since the 1980's. I still have an Amiga 500 up and running..lol. I usually build all my machines (btw Tiger Direct is very cool). I actually have 7 computers setup in my house running everything from os2/warp4 to linux mandrake. I have to do this anymore to stay in the game on telephone stuff. Luckilly I have already been in the PC world.

Wheels, I didn't mean to offend you. What I'm saying is that the Internet and especially BB's like this are great tools, but I believe there is no substitute for experience (I have only been doing this 26 years and still learning). You are not going to find all your answers on this or any other board. Sometimes it takes getting your butt kicked by a problem to learn it.And as I've heard before:"I've taught you everything you know, but not everything I know"

Me too. I come from a strong data/networking background and have only been in the telco business for 14 months now.

My first PC I built was back in 1980. I was 10 years old. Heathkit H-89. AHHHH Memories

CP/M, 64K, and a 8" floppy drive. It was awesome back then

------------------
NEC Unified Solutions / Voice Mail and Unified Messaging | Active Voice, LLC

Remember the old RLL and MFM drives? Heheheh.

Yep. Still had some until a few years ago. Still have an Osborne portable and a few Apple II's.

Man, you guys make me look like a rookie -- my first was a "new" '85 IBM with a "new" 5 1/4 floppy. what a boat anchor but it could be used to program some of my PBXs. A real boat anchor to haul around. Now you know why a lot of companies started producing their own programming units.

Frankiephones,

Gap, Pa. - we're right next to Intercourse, Paradise and Blue Ball, Pa.
In fact, you have to go through the Gap to get to Intercourse and Paradise, if you don't you pass through Blue Ball first.
if you think I'm joking, check the map.
mark

I think the guy who used to deliver ice said the same thing when westinghouse made the freezer. On the plus side, these IT guys who's employers are requiring them to maintain a phone sys. are one trick pony's, so to speak. They won't be on the board everydy asking about a half dozen different systems. On the flip side, a 100 IT's asking questions.......
Anyone who takes a moment to actually read this board can quicky surmise that even the most experienced phone guy needs help...this board exists for that reason.
So let the DIY or IT guy have a go, he can only go so far w/o help.
Maybe a section just for IT guys who need help with phone sys? You could seperate them from an installer by verifing a required profile (business email address or web site) and/or a general on line quick test.
If thier profile doesn't reflect a Telephony type job/company, then the only catagory they can access is the IT/Phone catagory. It won't be 100% but might limit the amount of posts contained in the catagories the general membership uses.
If they request permission to the whole set of catagories, then they have to prove that they are in the business, again with company letterheads or email address or tel #'s.

my 2 cents

You're right about the IT types. It's usually something they got stuck with. The boss doesn't understand the reason they have a IT guy is computers break all the time ---- telephones don't. Otherwise they'e have an in-house tel guy, too. Just because the two have similar wire and are basically the same --- a computer --- they aren't the same. But a BIG boss only wants to see it done for nothing. And that's what they get for nothing --- Nothing.

My 2 cents.

1. Telephone
2. Operator Assisted Telephone switching
3. Electromechanical switching systems
4. Solid-state switching systems
5. Computer controlled switching systems
6. Mainframe computing (terminals) low-bandwith database functionality. Could share cabling infrastructure with voice system.
7. Client/Server computing - High bandwith required - no longer acceptable to share infrastructure with voice system.
8.Seperate voice and data cabling.
9. Voice and data re-integration via VoIP.
10. Voice and data now share same infrastructure again only instead of running data over the voice system, we're running voice over the data system.
11. What's next? How about no cabling at all?
Everything will be wireless and digital and plug and play compatable with everthing else. You'll be able to control your whole world from your very own Personal Communications and Data Delivery system. (Formally known as the Telephone)