Thanks to the board for the a ton of information on phone systems that they didn't teach us accountants in CPA school.

I am writing a recommendation for a client that currently has 670 Centrex lines on a property costing $13,000 a month. There are two buildings on the property that have been Cat 5 wired in the last 5 years. They are not connected. One's a Social Services building (360 phones) and the other is a Health Services building (210 phones).

PRI in this area can be had for $650 a month so I'm guessing 3 PRI will do the trick. Big monthly savings there before equipment cost. My problem is 1) what's the cost of an appropriately sized PBX/IP-PBX including installation and 2) what's the cost of linking the two buildings?

If I can tell my client it will cost not mroe than say $350 per port plus $2000 to install fiber between the buildings, then its probably a go. Any pointers on what might be feasible in terms of cost per port and fiber cost?

Any help would be really appreciated.

Jim

Jim,

You have a lot of variables here, first off 3 PRI's are not going to be sufficient for 570 users, what are they using for handsets? I don't know about our brethren in Virginia but $350 a port is extremely low, I would also think that they also may fall under the HIPAA guidlines which would also mean that all voicemails, emails and instant messaging need to be archived and stored.

I'm sure there has to be some happy vendor in Virginia that would be happy to get this job but I think you will end up doubling your proposed budget before you are finished, was the Cat V cabling certified when it was installed? For a VoIP system which I think would be the primary choice you would also need a Network Survey performed to identify all components of the network to make sure you would have enough bandwidth to meet your needs.
On the good side they should be able to recover the costs for a new system over a fairly short time span.

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One stop Voice and Data Solutions VoIP

[This message has been edited by Milestone (edited December 12, 2004).]

Thanks for the reply! I started with the 3 PRI because the entire county (980 phones including DSS and Health) are using only 69 NARs. I imputed 3 PRI as providing 69 channels. We also have a county client just north of this client that has 8 PRI for 1900 phones. Recent traffic studies have us dropping 1 PRI and ports to channels will be about 12 X 1 (they have more phones now).

Yes, both agencies are HIPAA regulated. But VM is not archived and stored. They have an inhouse Centigram system that's maxed out (so I'm told). We have probably 50 NC counties as clients and I promise not 1 Health or DSS is archiving VM for longer than it takes for a rep to take and dispose of the call. Not that that is HIPAA compliant, just the way things are.

I got the $350 per port number from another post on this board. My experience in getting bids for the other county govt client was $1.1M for two 11Cs and a 61C serving 1800 phones, right at $600 per port. However, there were several large buildings that had to be entirely re-wired. Install cost was as big as equipment. I was guessing the current client's install would be smaller given rewiring already occurred.

And about the rewiring. I am informed it was done under the NC state master contract...e.g. it better have been done to NC standards for Cat 5. Again, not that it was but I'd bet is was.

I'd say the breakeven's going to have to be $600 per port and that won't allow much for maintenance. But is there a realistic chance I could get the job done for less than that? Is the filber connect between the buildings (only 150 ft between closets max) a major cost issue?

Thanks again.

Jim,

Not wanting to step on local toes, I would be happy to run some numbers for you we do work nationally and the job is definitely big enough to be worth it. Is there anybody locally who wants to say anything?
The best thing would be for you to give me a call on my cell 201-681-4496 and we could discuss the project. Part of the problem is the delay between questions and answers for a project of this scope and size.

Chris

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One stop Voice and Data Solutions VoIP

[This message has been edited by Milestone (edited December 12, 2004).]

Curious as to what HIPAA regulations specifically you are talking about. I have never heard of such umm info.

That's ok it seems that most healthcare professionals haven't either, I did a quick search to get the actual regulations but that will have to wait until tomorrow when I get back into the office. Basically it relates to all healthcare operations and relates mostly to secure transfer of patients information and paperwork over the internet through a secure VPN, they also got mixed in with Financial services in that (I believe) they also must save all emails, voice mails and instant messages to an offsite location. Rather than give too much misinformation I will post a link tomorrow to the actual regulations but they are there and the penalties are very high for any operations that do get caught.

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One stop Voice and Data Solutions VoIP

I actually think 3 PRI's would be more than adequate. 1 to 5 trunking is a tad low but consider what you are doing here as well. It's only a bit under 25% and the PRI helps alot in this regard. If this is for housing you maty really want to consider using a PBX with analog ports that provide caller ID. As far as the 2 buildings I assume they are close enough to be cabled together with feed cable? Without knowing the specifics I wouldn't try and second guese you. The 4th or 5th PRI if you get them you may consider getting a dedicated one from a long distance provider to give you premo rates on long distance and 800 numbers.

Thank Coral. I don't know how far is too far for feed cable. The closets of the two buildings are less than 150 feet by my guesswork. I'm just trying to get a ballpark on the installed cost per port. The PRI is dirt cheap ($850 per month each). Long distance is insultingly cheap at a flat $0.04 per minute with -0- regulatory fees and no cost to connect to LD network. The PRI provider gives LD connection free as a part of a state master contract with the State of NC.

By installing a 670 port PBX with VM, I can reduce almost $12K of monthly recurring bills to the number of PRI X $850. Super operating leverage. I just don't know how to ballpark an outside worst installed cost per port.

Thanks again

150 feet is a chip shot. I would do it and pull fiber with the 500 pair feed that you run when you do it. Is this housing?

Jim,

Most switches will easily give you a 1000 feet which sounds well within reason here, Coral I was also considering the analog port route but thinking long term if you went with a VoIP system you will also take a huge bite out of maintenance and service, adds moves and changes are as simple as unpluging the phone and plugging it in where ever you have network or internet access. You could also use a media gateways to give you the analog ports as another option, again without an actual spec on what features they might be looking for it's all a crap shoot. With more info it would be a good excersize to compare the two options and see how they work out apples to apples

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One stop Voice and Data Solutions VoIP

Thanks Coral, Milestone. The two buildings are office buildings for Social Service and Health departments, not housing. I've not seen a lot of MACs in their billings lately; those two buildings are absolutely maxed out with staff. People might move around but they change their numbers, not connect disconnect! Even one wiring closet is cohabited with a staff person! No kidding. Not exactly one's idea of disaster prevention. I hesitate to ask for their "recovery plan." They do use outside help to maintain their Centigram VM; adding mailboxes etc, and there's some cost there.

This is far removed from the experience of corporate America, but these people are working hard with what they've got. That's why I'm looking more at hard dollar cost improvement more so than tweaking the soft dollar. I need to see hard dollar breakeven or savings from day 1 because that is the only way they'll persuade their County Board of Commissioners of the need to finance the project. With the savings, they might be persuaded to spend money on improved functionality.

That's why I'm thinking a VoIP soution might work out long term, you buy a system which has all the licensing imbedded, the same applies to most of the hardware, you start of tight with features and distribute the additional features as they are needed, it sounds like your network wiring should be up to snuff, you more than likely woudl have to replace the data switches with a product that supports QOS but that will also improve the data traffic too. There is also the HIPAA issue which does need to be addressed and this would also be accomplished at the same time, imagine that improve productivity, streamline communications and use the savings you generate to pay for the new system and possibly even leave some funds for the pension plan even better you could run the systems side by side until you fully initialize the new switch zero down time. When do you need to get your proposal in?

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One stop Voice and Data Solutions VoIP

I don't have a time line on the proposal per se. The county manager asked me to work on the cost/payback numbers so I have the initiative. The best way to present it would be apples to apples so he could see hard dollar savings (which I believe will be there in some modest terms at least). Then if he or the staff want to spend some savings (which I think they will) then they can bite off as much as they want. I'll probably be back to the board with more information towards the end of next week.

Thanks, Jim

Still waiting on security policy pertaining to voice mail storage.

Milestone, Tadiran has auto set relocate..unlike the Nortel version it actually works. You don't even have to move the phone you just key it in or from a terminal and move it....and at a fraction of voip. Don't get me wrong I have a ton of voip deployed..with this feature and the reliability of the phone system and a redundant system not tied to the data...it only makes huge sense. Tell you what, ask a Cisco customer sometime how much they get gigged for required software upgrades, or licensing...the lack of a true analog port 56k capabilty. Loop limits on phones that are under 300 feet as opposed to 2500 feet. TDM phones not required to go from analog->IP->media gateway->tdm and vice versa. I would hazrad a guese that you will never realize a ROE on IP like they tout. No one I have ever dealt with, after ripping out many a cisco, say they realized a roe but actually a net loss because of all the "bach end" charges you get hit with. Do the research. Voip is a great technology for outside networking and home workers, internally...eh.


[This message has been edited by Coral Tech (edited December 13, 2004).]

VirginiaJim,

I would recommend that you contact a local dealer to sit down and go through what your looking for. They may have some good suggestions and would definately be able to do a site survey with you. I know of a great dealer in Portsmouth,VA that has done some very large Networking/IP installations around Virginia Beach and the DC area.

Let me know if you want their information and how to contact you.

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Buy-SamsungPhoneSystems.com

Coral you raise some good points I will have to take a look at the Tadiran but I disagree with you on ROE and particularly on a large implementation you will realize returns, how many runs do you actually pull in an office that exced 300' generally? Regarding Cisco that was a poor choice to use as a progressive and cost effective switch for many reasons. As I said it would be an interesting excercise.
Ohio I will email you a white paper on the HIPAA regulations tomorrow

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One stop Voice and Data Solutions VoIP

I have some phones that are over 2000' from the phone system Milestone. You would have to do some pretty interesting costing to show me that voip internally is cost effective esp when you have little or no MAC work going on per se. Tell me what you find! Good luck!

Coral long term maintenance will be less, in 99% of the cases if you are installing in a networked building any location that has a pc has a repeater or network switch for excessively long drops, also the system would not have to be purely VoIP you could include analog ports the Zultys 4x5 also has a 56k port specifically for redundancy and the 911 issues as does the switch and I guarantee your switch hardware and installation costs are going to be lower, less space needed. Again it will be a good exercise to run some numbers to see what the bottom line actually ends up to be. At the very least Jim would you mind sharing your final solution with us.
Coral I would like to talk to you about the Tadiran

Chris

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One stop Voice and Data Solutions VoIP

Thanks Samsung, Milestone, Coral. I'm still in the numbes/concept stage. I do have a state of NC engineer meeting with me to do a preliminary 'look see' behind what I've already done. Again, if its under $600 per port, the County will probably have a break even when you lump together lease payment, PRI cost, and maintenance and compare it to current Centrex. They'll be light years better off in functionality...and probably save a little money. Its gonna be a long term thing (Cnty Mgr/Commissioner approval, specs writing, RFP, final approval) but, yes, I'll be glad to let you guys know what we've spec'd. And thanks again.

Since you were unable to backup your statements about HIPAA I assume, you were giving erroneous information. I consulted with Privacy, and Security Officer of a major medical facility here in Ohio, who was not aware of this security policy. I was also given a HIPAA Tool Kit manual, which had no policies, referring to storage of Voicemail, Email, etc.

[This message has been edited by OhioTelecom (edited December 14, 2004).]

No problem.

If you would like I can give you a quote on a new PBX. If you want to know about our service you can check with Ramada Plaza Resorts on the ocean front and 57th street.
They have a service contract with us.
Larry

You are correct, as I said I wasn't positive about the email and voice mail storage it actually applies to brokers and investment institutions.




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One stop Voice and Data Solutions VoIP

virginiajim,
I would highly recomend sitting down and talking this over with a knowledgable person. CMDL_Guy (Larry) has proven himself on this board again and again. Even if you do not go with him, his insight would certainly be worth a little bit of your time. From his past experience, he has a depth and breadth of knowledge that few installation companies posess.

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