Hello,

I am looking for thoughts on Surge and Spike protection to install on an existing phone KSU system.

In a past millennium I would have installed a ITW-UP3B-230 protector on the CO Lines at the 66 Block before the KSU and after the Demarc. Just normal things to do.

Now I question that long learned procedure when installing after a Comcast VOIP Modem????

The questions that come to mind are.
1) Is this even necessary anymore??

2) Is the potential strike or surge just as possible or non-existant since the box (aka as CO) is now on the wall and not 8 miles away??

3) If a strike does hit the comcast coax on the pole and then the modem could it pass thru the modem and go downstream??

4) Is it just good practice just to be safe??
Thanks for any and all input.

Les

We, like you, have always put in ITW lighting protection--grounded. We have stopped doing that with the Comcast modems and EMTAs for analog lines---and also because of the SIP trunks that we install now.

However, we always put in a line interactive UPS (not a standby or offline one). We have used these on every new system we have installed for the last 10/15 years, and have installed them in many other situations involving older systems. Worth every penny of investment, in my opinion.

Thanks for the response.

Do you know if the Comcast modems have protection inside the case that is something worth while to protect the premis equipment??

I understand the UPS install thoughts, do it as well.

The thing that really started me thinking about this in more detail is what happened yesterday. I was called out by a customer to look at his phone extensions on his system the day before. This has a level of evolution since the original install. I did not do the install.

Once I figured out the NON labeled wiring I determined that the two extensions phones that were down were wired through a surge protector.

Such as KSU ->>- Surge ->>- Extension phone.

It was a SurgeGate MLLT1 by ITW

To make things more confusing this was converted from Verizon Landline service to Comcast VOIP. As it turned out the Comcast modem lost line 2 during the event.

How does the surge protector take a hit that blows it out so it will save or give of itself to protect the downstream equipment when the Upstream is the KSU?? AND it was NOT damaged?? I jumpered the surge protection and all worked Ok. Except for line 2 which was dead from modem.

It is not Alexanders world anymore.

Thanks for the input all.

Les

First things first. There is, absolutely, NO device made that will protect anything from a direct lightning strike.

A lightning strike can occur 10 or more miles away and will follow ANYTHING that will convey it to ground, including coax, telephone cable and power line. BUT, if you install protection, that is, AC line, CO trunks and OPX/OPE you have a good chance of avoiding disaster.

Anyone who installs telephone equipment, whether SIP, POTS on Copper or Comcast, etc. and does NOT use protection is only gambling and will eventually pay the piper.

IF you install protection, you MUST insure that ground is actually GROUND and not some high resistance fake ground. Not only should the protection devices be grounded, they must be bonded.

We use surge protection on ANYTHING that is connected to the KSU or PBX. I don't care who the provider is, anything metallic is a potential path for lightning.

By the way....Comcast equipment barely meets UL approval. There IS NO protection in their equipment. I have seen their boxes melted and burned to a crisp and our KSU running like nothing happened. THAT'S the value of full protection.

Rcaman

Rcaman,

I totally agree with everything you say. But you forgot to include FIOS on your list of media that lightning can follow.

Was called out to an alarm customer that needed to replace the RJ31X protector and reconnect the alarm panel to the dial tone and test. A lightening bolt hit a tree 1/2 mile from the house along a private drive. The bolt was so strong that it split the tree to the root, parted the earth for 35 feet across the driveway, hit the buried FIOS cable and followed it to the house where it blew the FIOS box off the wall.

Verizon came out and repaired all. Seeing the after effects was an amazing site to see.

With every strike that I have observed I am always amazed at what it can do. It is an amazing world we live in.

With all of that I am still wondering how a protector between the KSU and the Ext. Phone can take a hit that short out something on the board(not visible) and not damage the KSU or the Ext. Phones. Boggles the mind. I guess no one wants to venture a guess on that amazing feat.

Thanks to all that respond here.

Les

How would lightning striking a fiber optic cable blow a FiOS ONT off of a wall? Glass isn't a conductive material. Unless there is a steel support strand embedded in overhead lines and drops, a strike would melt the glass fibers. A lightning strike to power lines...I could see that causing that type of damage.

Improper ground. The overvoltage was present on the ground wire, went back through the surge protectors and was taken care of by the internal surge protectors on the extension ports of the KSU thereby blowing the fuses in the surges.

-Hal

So your thinking that the #6 Copper cable that was run to the phone system by others was or is not connected properly to building structure or has some other bad connection??

Les

Where is the button that will allow me to get email notifications of new post on this thread??

Please advise!!

Les

At the bottom of each post is a bunch of boxes. The last two that I see say "Notify" and "Email Post". Do they appear for you as well?

Ok, got it. I thought the "Email Post" was if I wanted to have a copy of the post emailed to me. But, I have seen that there is a extra button to get replys sent as well.

Thanks!!

Les

dexman,

I would bet that the FIOS cable is an armored drop (most likely aluminum shield) which is used for rodent protection, strength, and more importantly, so that they can locate the the buried line. Lightning probably entered where the cable is bonded to a locate terminal and followed it all the way to the ONT. Just my guess.

Could not have said it better myself.

Les

I would bet on it. Also, I've written extensively about system grounding and it should not be connected to the building structure. In many cases that would be the cause of the problem you encountered. The system and any surge protectors should be connected to the same electrical ground that the system line cord is connected to, preferably right at the receptacle.

-Hal

I will look into it next week and report back findings.

Care to share a link your "writings"??

Thanks,

Les

I'm on a tablet at the moment...

If you search "Partner Grounding" in the Avaya-Lucent forum with a target date of 7/4/06, a link to a discussion on grounding that was posted by Hal will be displayed.

Hal,

Thanks I got it.

Also like the tip on the DTK-3GTP. It seems they have since dropped the -X from the part number. Will use that in the future for sure.

Thanks again.

Have a good week.

Les

FO drop cable, here in western PA, is made up of aramid and kevlar for aerial drops and the underground has an aluminum alloy overwrap to protect against backfill stones and sharp debris as well as varmint control. However, if the aerial cable is wet, a near lightning strike can travel the wet "non conductive" cable right to the ONT. Of course, if the armored FO is hit, the overwrap will conduct the lightning directly to the ONT.

Some LECs use FO aerial drop cable with a figure 8 make-up. The strand is galvanized steel and is a wonderful lightning conductor.

Rcaman

On alot of our FO drops that we have installed lately, we have pulled in a di-electric drop w/ a separate locate ground wire (all inside 3/4" UD) w/ the ground floating on both ends, just to avoid the chance of lightning damage. In fact, all of the cell sites around here require that on new construction.

-Hal [/quote]

I would bet on it. Also, I've written extensively about system grounding and it should not be connected to the building structure. In many cases that would be the cause of the problem you encountered. The system and any surge protectors should be connected to the same electrical ground that the system line cord is connected to, preferably right at the receptacle.

-Hal [/quote]

Ok, more input.

I was on site today cleaning up the wiring and installing some different protection.

Here is what I have since found out.

The Line 2 that I perceived was dead from the Comcast Modem was in fact shorted at the Surgegate M9COM ports that were to be protecting the Lines before the KSU. This was determined by Comcast and the Tech just jumped into and out of a different port on the SurgeGate.

The #6 cable that I assumed went to building ground in fact just went to the KSU chassie ground point. The KSU is then grounded thru electrical ground as it passes thru a APC UPS plugged into Backup Power and Surge protection.

I reconfigured the wiring from the Comcast modem on the 66 Block so that I could install some ITW UP3P-235 connected to a ground bar and connected to the #6 Copper which I bonded to electrical ground.

Hope that makes sense. I think I got it as it should be.

What I still find amazing is that this spike or surge got thru the Comcast Modem with no damage, then blew out only the line 2 protector on the SurgeGate, then had to pass thru the KSU and blow out Extension port protection on the Surgegate MLLT1 2 port protector.
All the while "APARENTLY" not damaging the KSU or any of the extension phones.

BOGGLES the mind.

I am on to other windmills now. Ya'll have a good weekend.

Les

Lightning is a fickle mistress. When the electrical ground has resistance between the equipment and actual electrical ground, weird anomalies, like yours, happen. The steps you have taken to correct the problem should provide better protection than was previous.

Rcaman

I thought I would give you guys a link to a very good Australian document on lightning protection which whilst it covers our regulations, it also covers many issues common to all countries. I would be interested in your opinions.

https://www.titab.com.au/sites/titab.com.au/files/cabling_between_buildings.pdf

I guess someone should have asked if you were in the US. All US commercial power is "ground return neutral" systems. That is, no matter where the lightning strike occurs, the huge earth conduction path will dissipate a lightning strike as long as the lightning strike is not a direct hit. That being said, even direct hits can be managed as is the case in New York City and the Empire State Building which receives direct lightning strikes many times during a year. I think one of the Bell techs I worked with in the 60s in New York told me the Empire State Building is nothing but a huge lightning rod covered with a building. With enough conductive mass, a lightning strike can be managed.

Whilst the article is appropriate to Australian power systems, it is in direct violation of the US NESC standards which require all telecommunication cabling to be bonded and grounded to the same point as the building electrical system.

Rcaman

Yes, I guess I should have included the location. I am in South Central Pennsylvania.

Leave it to the Aussie's to do it different.

Thanks to all for the input. All changes have made and the system is holding together quite well.

Have a good holiday.

Les

LOL....you got me. I thought you were an Aussie trying to get help from US techs.

One has to be careful reading and then trying to incorporate other countries' codes and standards in the US. If it isn't NEC or NESC based, you should avoid it in the US.

Rcaman

That is a first.

You take care Mate!!

Yes us Aussies do things differently (I'm actually an Ex pat Brit but been here for 25 years) But the earth mat in Oz is terrible, very sandy dry soil (if you can actually call it soil). We have similar bonding requirements however I have never once seen the use of an earth loop impedance tester here, yet we were using them for years in the UK before I came here. You must admit though the use of the Thunder days map is quite intriguing.

I am truly impressed with the detail and reasoning behind the code. It works extremely well for the purpose it is intended. Sandy soil is a challenge everywhere. I know in North Carolina around the Outer Banks, there are some very specific requirements for bonding and grounding which are unique to the soil (or lack thereof) and conditions there. The bottom line here is safety. Human, animal and property must be considered when dealing with anything electric and most especially with lightning.

Rcaman