Got a problem. Must rig up several phones where there is only CAT5 currently yet must keep the computrers on the network. If I made a splitter to pull off the unused pairs at the wall and patch panel, would this create any issues for either the phones or the network switch? I've done this for just network connections but never voice and network in the same cable.

REALLY bad practice but it will probably work.

Ive seen threads like this where the OP came back and reported that it was working fine .

why not just run some cat 3 for voice ?

I will when time and logistics permit. This is a must have NOW and the runs are long and require me to boot people from workstations. I can't do it until a weekend evening and they want 4 bodies with phones by the end of today.

Sell them cordless phones if they want it that bad, explaining the potential problems.

A general rule I use is if it ain't supposed to be, don't do it...it'll bite you every time sooner or later.

You can always run cat 3 along the floor with enough extra slack to do it right when time permits. Not the safeest practice, but better. Usually the client will give you the needed time to do it right.

Dave

Cordless is not an option, temporary cabling is not an option. If I have to run cable I will and they'll just have to lump it but seeing as how this is a Partner ACS I was hoping the voltages would be low enough to not cause crossover or induction. I *hate* jerry-rigging anything but this is a special case. Its an old brick building with hard top ceilings and getting cable in there is going to mean drilling and running wire mold - there just isn't the time to do it all today.

We all know this practice is not up to industry standard. We're not telling you anything new.

Technically speaking I doubt it would cause a problem with the data or the telephone unless you are connecting analog lines to the cable. If the telephone lines are analog the ringing current may cause a blip on the data signal but even then I doubt it would be noticeable.

The problem I have with doing things like this is that even though it is done as a temporary measure, they have a way of becoming "temporarily permanent".
Sometimes it's difficult, if not impossible, to get a customer to fork over more money to do things the right way once they see everything working the way they want. All they know is that it's working and that's good enough for them and especially the boss.

In the future when another vendor comes along and sees the way things have been rigged, do you think the customer is going to tell them they told you to do it that way? Not on your life. But they will be quick to give them the name of your company!

you know guys, when you go on a job and have some cabling to do, well do it right, because if you leave a cable on the floor no one know if someone will pull on it or something like that, so you will have to go back and pass another cable. the best thing to do is past the cable and put it down into the wall. If the costumer want it some where else later on, you gotta have to pass another cable,dont mind about the time or equipement, it is the costumer that pay for that. the best thing to do its alwyas do the job correctly.i almost forgot never pass a computer cable over neon that create indution and you cable will lose some of its signal.

Screw the 'puters. Take the two pairs and put the phone on it. As long as they work is all we have to worry about. :banana:

Would a CG worry about our phones?

-Hal

I didn't read this whole thread, so if this has been addressed already I apologize.

One thing to keep in mind, is that if you're not using a phone system and you're just bringing the dialtone to each station, the AC ring has a tendency to choke out the data signal during a ring.

take one of the data cables and run it to a 5 port switch , connect the four workstations to the switch now all four users are on the network via one cable and you have 3, 4 pair data cables that can now become phone cables feeding two partner extension per cable

Skip - wish I could, cinderblock walls between the four rooms and a hard top ceiling make that too much for today's goal. I told them I could patch it in for now using homemade splitters but that we have to make it right later and that next time I need more than 12 hours notice.

A lack of planning on their part does not constitute an emergency on mine. I know you are just trying to help the customer out but how did these offices get data cable and no phones to begin with.

We can all go on about doing the proper practices (which I believe in) and tell the customer the problem is theirs, but busting everyones balls over this won't get the job done. Yes, you can use the unused pairs. I've done it. Explain there is a slight risk. They will say "Whatever, just get it done", and you'll do the work. Everyone should be happy.

Richard

If the computers are using 1000base-t you're SOL. That scheme uses all 4 pairs.

Can you place a switch AND a wireless router, and use one Cat5e for the 'puters, and the rest of the wires for the phones, as suggested above?

It's more than just a slight risk. Say you split a run and the client decides it's good enough, it can stay that way. You can explain the risks and limitations all you want, the client won't remember that. A year down the road they have some IT company upgrading their network, and they realize they can't do gigabit on some of their runs. Now they're being told "Hey, whoever you paid to install these runs cheated you and did things completely against standards. We can't use these, you need more cable run in." Now you look like the bad guy, and your reputation is damaged. Call me paranoid, but this is reason enough to never do this. If you're really painted into a corner though and it must be done, make sure it looks temporary. Don't do such a good job that the client doesn't want to pay for things to be done right.

there are actually adapters out there that you plug in on both ends of the cable its like a t adapter and it gives a 10 base t and a rj14
I think you can get them from jennsen real labor
savors for a tempo pinch!!

also see page b36 of hubble catalog!!

have done it with digital phones under duress
and never had a complaint about network issues

Well it is done, and so far no complaints. I just yanked the CAT5 jack, pulled off the blue and brown pairs and terminated them to a CAT3. Then on the patch panel I made a Y-cable splitter with a CAT5 RJ45 connector and a CAT5 and CAT3 keystone for each of the 4 runs. It doesn't look half-bad but I put a label on one of them that said "temporary." We'll be dragging a lot of cable in the months ahead so it'll all get fixed then and I can recycle the jacks so it made sense from that point of view as well.

That is not surprising. For 10baseT, based on what the IEEE 802.3 specs say, it was actually designed to operate on existing "category nothing" telephone cable, with phone lines in the same cable, and the potential of interference was taken into account.

For 100baseTX, the situation is not so clear, but the IEEE 802.3 specifations make a point of stating that 100baseT2 and 100baseT4 are not compatible with POTS in the same cable, but ARE compatible with BRI ISDN in the same cable. They make no such statement for 100baseTX regarding compatibility with other services in the same cable.

That they make no such statement for 100baseTX indicates that they do not believe running 100baseTX with POTS in the same cable to be a problem.

100baseT2 and 100baseT4, by the way, are specifications for 100 megabit Ethernet over 2 pairs of cat 3 and 4 pairs of cat 3 cable respectively. It would be reasonable to believe that these are more sensitive to interference than 100baseTX due to the higher data rate running over a lower-grade cable.

As a side note, I've never seen any 100baseT2 or 100baseT4 equipment. I don't think any was ever made.

you can network with quad if you had to.

Yep. Look up products like Ethersplit. They run POTS and 10baseT over the same quad cable.

I've been doing this for 20 years. I agree with Clinton on this. The customer never remembers the deal they got today, even if they requested it. They just remember the trouble it caused later. And yes they do tell every one they know.

Plot thickens.

Verizon, or it's contractors, have wired at least one apartment complex with 6-pair cat5 (not even cat5e, place was built in 2000) to the demarc, and is using two of those pairs for Ethernet, which is wired to a jack right near the built-in computer desk. (Plugging a computer into the Ethernet gives you the option to sign up for their service when you try to go to any web site). The other pair(s) would be used for analog voice service if the customer wants phone service.

BTW. The 6-pair cat5 is terminated on a 110 block inside the apartment along with home runs to all of the jacks in the apartment.

Dunno what's at the demarc end, I have no idea where it is in that particular building.

Somebody sold that bunch a few bottles of snake oil for sure. Imagine that, Verizon, the supposed authority on how it's supposed to be done breaking perhaps the #1 cardinal rule in network cabling.

A large installer here in NE Florida partnered with a CLEAC and did a similar thing in a business park but got sued for not giving the tenants an alternative internet provider.

Interesting, this complex has Comcast cable and in fact my friend ordered Comcast cablemodem service since the Verizon Ethernet service seemed expensive for the speeed you get.

Back on the topic, what is the purpose of 6-pair Cat5e? It seems to be intended for multiple services in the same cable. Why else would you want an extra 2 pairs in the cable?

back in the early 90's, I ran into an issue with split pairs. The I-Macs had just come out, and the client had replaced several tired workstations with the latest and greatest offering from MacIntosh.

As soon as they plugged in the network cable (that was a split pair feeding 2 previous computers) the building network halted. Seems the I-Mac was a full-duplex system, and required all 4 pair to communicate.

Then and Now are two different things!

Older Macs used Localtalk, which ran on one pair at 230kbps. This stuff would even work on quad wire.

The Imac came with 10baseT, which as we all know runs at 10mbps, requires 2 pairs, and needs cable that's at least twisted pair.

the old local talk used the "black and yellow" pair, in theory it was to allow you to run it over your exhisting telephone wiring

Running voice and data on one cat5 is possible having 2 cat5 cables cost more and if your building a house I would run 2 cat5e.But if your house is all ready built and you only have 1 cat5e at each location "thats ok"
You can get the same level of function on one cat5e with out any problems. The big phone cable running down the street on the telephone poles is old and has fax machines on it, DSL lines, alarm circuits , pots lines , dial up ,T1 circuits and what ever else the phone company is offering and they don't have a problem. As a matter of fact I do believe running voice and data on one cat5 is what cat5 was designed for ! Imagine that , I install cat5e and if you wont 2 cat5e at each drop great. Thats times 2 = more $ here is a link to picture to simplify how it is done. remember keep the brown pair on the data side it is used for POE applications and the phone only needs and uses the blue pair. https://www.contact-directconnect.com/Smart-Jack.jpg :toast:

and what would lead you to that conclusion ?

what do you suppose cat 6 designed for , two phones and data ?

"what do you suppose cat 6 designed for"
For Gigabit Networks
1000 Base-T
2 make more $

Despite the fact that this thread is years-old, I am having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say. Your post is very hard to read. Would you mind elaborating upon what you are trying to say so that we can start a new thread on this subject? Just a suggestion.

Read the very first post on this old thread ?

It's a how to explanation:
https://www.contact-directconnect.com/Smart-Jack.jpg

:toast:

you do realize that cat3 is available in 4 pair , that CAT5 is available in pair counts other than 4 ,that 10base-t will work just fine on CAT3 and that CAT3 is the preferred cable for POTS service