I opened up a terminal yesterday, and it looked like odd count pic (there were gold wires). Eventually I counted and it had 51 pairs, of a pretty low guage wire.
But:
1. There were no red wires, maybe other colors missing too.
2. there were multiple pairs of the same color, at least three white/blue and green/gold, and at least two black/brown
I peeled the sheath back about 5 inches, but could find no trace of binders. Perhaps they had decayed with age or been eaten by insects.
It appeared there was a lot of haywiring, a couple pairs just in the terminal I was in, the second from the end (I also looked in the end terminal), so I could not use what I expected in order to guess at a translation, Maybe there is an alternate numbering for odd count pic, and this was 3 or 4 groups of the first 12-17 of that count?
I am going back there tomorrow, does anybody have any hints on the color coding for this?
Has anybody heard of an alternate numbering for odd count
I tried to post a link for the color code, but can't get it big enough you can see it. There are brown that looked a lot like the gold. Could it be that?
I have the normal odd count pic color code. The normal pair numbers of which there were 2 or three examples included 9 (WBl), 20 (YG) and 22 (BkG). There was NO mistaking the Yellow-Green! If it was three bundles, each bundle wouldn't go over 17, so it must be some other code. And yes, I know red sometimes fades to brown (also orange) but if that was the case, there should have been a LOT of wires that looked brown, and that was not the case. The "gold" actually looked like a clear insulator over copper, maybe I should have said that in the first place.
Maybe it could be three bundles of pairs 9-25?
If the cable I go into tomorrow is the same, and I can't get an answer from one of the other splicers, maybe I will do a full inventory of the pair colors. I didn't have time yesterday.
Here is the 51-pair odd-pic color code. It may not format correctly, but it might help.
Note that the first 5 pairs all have a red Tip. So it probably is not "real" odd pic. It might have been an intercom company or other non-telco company who installed the cabling. Is it (was it) feeding telephone equipment? What color is the sheath? Do you have any clue as to the date it was installed?
Do I have your permission to pose your question on the Antique Telephone Collectors forum? Some old fart over there may have the answer.
1 R-B 26 P-Br
2 R-O 27 P-S
3 R-G 28 Y-S
4 R-Br 29 Bk-Br
5 R-S 30 Bk-S
6 Go-B 31 Go-P
7 Go-O 32 B-Br
8 Go-G 33 B-Or
9 W-B 34 G-S
10 W-O 35 O-Br
11 W-G 36 B-G
12 W-Br 37 O-G
13 Go-Br 38 G-Br
14 Go-S 39 Br-S
15 Bk-B 40 B-S
16 W-S 41 R-W
17 Bk-O 42 R-Y
18 Y-B 43 R-Bk
19 Y-O 44 R-Go
20 Y-G 45 R-P
21 Y-Br 46 W-Y
22 Bk-G 47 W-Bk
23 P-B 48 W-Go
24 P-O 49 W-P
25 P-G 50 Y-P
51 O-S
yes, that is what I have for odd count pic. But,as I said, there were at least three yellow-green, three white-blue, and two black-green. And no sign of any red wires.
I'd appreciate it if anybody posed the question anywhere they might get an answer.
I wonder if it's like paper. I have some old paper cable, that, upon first glance, I figured was color coded. When I took the time to actually catalog the pairs, I found many pairs of some color combinations, and only one or two of others. Unless there were stripes that faded, very similar colors that became indistinguishable, or something, the colors were not definitive, which somebody had told me earlier. maybe this is very early pic and the same thing, and it really as to be toned out?
I have forwarded your question to the ATCA and TCI forums. Let's see what the dinosaurs have to say.
Does the sheath tell you anything? This may not be telco cable, I think the military had some different stuff prior to the color code that's now standard.
I've spoken with some others here about this. Here is my take on things, although it may not be entirely accurate:
This territory is served by Embarq/Sprint/Centel/Central Telephone in the Des Plaines area around the airport, correct?
During WW2, AT&T and it's Bell companies were in short supply of materials due to their manufacturing division (Western Electric) being so heavily involved in making communications products for the US government. There was also a huge metals shortage at the time. Even the US Mint had to alter the metallic content of our currency. Western Electric was so busy that their supply of materials to the Bell companies started to fall behind. Once the war was over and a huge new housing surge began, WE was working 24/7 to keep up with the Bell companies' demand. They could barely keep up, so there came a point where AT&T decided to start bringing in more outside manufacturers, like AIW-American Insulated Wire and Suttle Apparatus.
For many years prior, most independent telephone companies, like Central Telephone relied upon Western Electric to manufacture and sell them cable. Because of their obligation to AT&T and it's Bell companies, they were not able to provide the independents the amount of cable that they needed during this rush. The independents did the same thing that AT&T did out of necessity. They hired other manufacturers to produce cable and hardware for them, but their pockets weren't as deep as AT&T's.
This was also occurring at a time when pulp cable was being transitioned to PIC (Polyethylene Insulated Conductors). There really hadn't been a uniform color code standard set since this was even new technology to AT&T. Each manufacturer designed cables how they saw fit. Since they were competing for business with Bell and independent companies, they didn't dare share their ideas about color codes.
The Bell companies had a lot more money to throw around, so they got most manufacturers to standardize with the current PIC color code that we know today. The independents didn't have that kind of money to spend, so they bought whatever they could get from whomever had cable to sell. They ended up with all different kinds of cable. Even some of the rural Bell companies got stuck with these strange cables since WE was shipping their cable to the more urban areas where the highest demand was. Not to mention, independent telcos didn't serve the larger cities anyway. Bell had most, if not all of them.
Meanwhile, the dominant independent telco, General Telephone & Electronics (GTE, now Verizon) had their own manufacturing subsidiaries: Automatic Electric for hardware and General Cable Corp. for wire and cable. In 'general', they followed the same color coding as Western Electric, and they also did what they could to provide product to the other independents. Their cable was very similar in design, but slightly different from Western's. You would never even pay attention to the differences. Their designs had to be slightly different to avoid patent issues at a time where these issues were the least of their worries. It was more about figuring out how to produce as much cable as each division possibly could without legal conflicts that might slow down production.
As I end yet another of my sermons, the answer is that many new cable manufacturers flocked to an opportunity to help fill the voids between WE and General Cable's inability to meet the supply demand. Telcos were buying anything that they could get their hands on and dealing with any color coding differences on their own.
It is pretty impressive that these cables are still out there and working. I don't know of any product, to include today's cable, that will last 60-70 years.
From what I'm seeing here, I wouldn't fault it for the strange color codes. Instead, I'd compliment it for the fact that it has lasted this long. Somebody's strange cable has held out pretty well for sure.
ED,Iused to live in the Des Plaines area so i found your post very informative-Thanks
I didn't know that General Cable was owned by GTE at one time...
You never cease to amaze me Ed.
"This was also occurring at a time when pulp cable was being transitioned to PIC (Polyethylene Insulated Conductors). There really hadn't been a uniform color code standard set since this was even new technology to AT&T."
Ed, that's a very informative write-up. There was, however, a period from pre-WW2 to the late 50's, when there was another type of insulation, (and we are talking inside station/key system/PBX wire, here) that was in use between the eras of pulp and PIC.
The sheath was generally dark brown, (color suffix -9) although sometimes if it was to be installed on baseboards, it could be found in ivory (-4) gray (-5) or much later, light olive gray (-49).
The pair count ran from 6 to over 100 pairs. It was generically referred to as "switchboard" cable but was used for stations, key sets, key equipment, etc, as well as interconnecting everything from manual PBX's to CO equipment. The insulation was a woven thread, and could be a single color, two colors, or multiple color combinations. For instance, there might be a pair that was (T) white/blue and (R) white/blue with a red stripe
If you would refer to BSP's covering the 44X- and 46X-series of key telephone sets, you will be able to see the color code. The original mounting cords of those sets mimicked the cable color codes. Later, the mounting cords were updated to match the color codes of even-count station cables.
Well, don't stop NOW, guys. This is the kind of stuff that I for 1 find really interseting. The new stuff is boring. (Boy, am I going to regret saying THAT!) The only odd cable I got tangled up with was some 15(?) pair with all BR/VI (?) pairs, except for the 1 R/W pair, paper insulated, lead sheathed, no less. John C. (Not Garand)
OK. Do you know the story of Mr. Watson's wife, Claire Isabelle?
Or why two of the pairs in every 25-pair cable are named after two cousins, both Bell operators, who, during a flood, stood by their positions, and continued to handle calls, until they both drowned at their posts?
The first one...Clear as a bell
The second one...Violet Green and Violet Brown.
Well the second one you had said before
