My dear 91yo Grandmother has a large house with a 1A2 system installed in 1967 (says Installed 1967 by HERB on the chassis!!). Up until fairly recently the system has given great service. Really, how many things nowadays last 40 years??

Now the system is starting to really have issues, so she is finally ready to upgrade to something more current. She had someone come out and take a look at the cost to replace the system. They see her big house and the price magically becomes $8,000 and they want to rewire the entire place.

Although not a telephone guy by trade I have experience with data/tel cabling and have installed 3 Panasonics and 3 Avaya Partner systems to date. I have decided to take it upon myself to install another system for free. I have purchased a suitable used Avaya Partner R6 system to replace the 1A2.

I'm making a huge assumption that the existing 25-pair RJ21/amphenol cable will be absolutely fine for the new system (reused). I intend to put RJ21 to RJ11 (amphenol to modular) adapters on the station end of the cabling, terminated on the other side to a 66 block where it will be fed into the Avaya KSU.

Am I on the right track? If anyone has done one of these types of conversions reusing existing 1A2 wire, I'd love to hear about it.

If you want to see some pictures of this dinosaur, let me know.

I searched around the forums and couldn't find a good answer to my question, so please be kind if this is a redundant post.

Well, your terminology is a little bit off, but there's nothing wrong with using 25 pair to modular adapters. That is why they were invented to begin with. Partner systems do not require anything special other than two pairs to operate. You will be fine.

259A (single) or 258A (multiple jack) adapters are perfect for your application. If you'd be comfortable using a patch panel at the equipment end, just maintain a 568B wiring pattern with these adapters and it will work. Don't worry about a thing.

Thanks for the reply and giving me some piece of mind! The people in here are really great..

Well, maybe. The problem I find with this type of conversion is that the 25 pair is often looped to many locations. The 1A2 phones are all bridged on the same pairs whereas modern systems like the Partner need separate pairs run from every phone back to the KSU.

Certainly 25 pair that is looped can be made to do that but don't expect to just plug a 259A into each Amphenol. You will have to cut the Amphenols off and use a regular jack wired to the correct two pairs of the 25 pair after you make the proper arrangements at the other end.

I doubt that there is any need to rewire, but whoever is going to do it needs to know what they are doing. It's not plug and play.

-Hal

What Hal said! The chances of those 25 pairs being home run individually to the KSU are 1 in .....1000? Normally 3-4 phones operate out of one 'can' centrally located in reference to the telephones it is supporting. Then 1 cable runs back to the main cabinet. All line buttons and signaling EXCEPT the IC buzzer, are commoned on all phones. Now, I'll bet you see the problem! Unless you 'study it out' and understand it for sure, you could get inserious trouble and leave 'Grandma' without service. Not good. If I were you, I'd punch the INSTALLER tab at the top of the page. John C. (Not Garand)

harmonica

That still doesn't help with the "other end". Then you would have to plug the phone into the one and only one correct jack on that harmonica. It's way too easy to have more than one phone on an extension with those. When that happens Partner phones will do something, and that's usually confuse the hell out of someone who doesn't know what's going on.

I agree with John, get someone who knows what they are doing to get the wiring working for you.

-Hal

You can try putting system next to old 1A2 system,then going to existing 25pr. cable on upper floor and cut off cable head and use first 2 pair on new jack,cross connect to Partner system and test.Make sure all old phones and any other phone devices are unplugged first. Then go to next phone location and use pairs 3 and 4 do same and test.This will work as long as you never duplicate pairs and do not short out any of the cut wires from cables. Although this will work,You can never remove any of the old cables{cut} without shorting out the entire system.

That's pretty much what you have to do. Put extension 10 on the w/bl and w/or and wire a jack to those pairs where x10 is going to be. Do the same with x11 on the w/gn and w/br and so on. Only problem is that you won't be able to do any more than 12 extensions ASSUMING all 25 pairs are cut through on all blocks which they usually are not. Normally you can count on three pair per line on the old 1A2 but that's about it. Like I say this is going to take some work.

-Hal

From what I count, all 25 pair cables are home runs to the basement (every phone has a dedicated 25 pair) where the 1A2 lives currently, so I think I'm good in terms of the existing cable. The 'can' LightingHorse speaks of is actually located only 20 or so feet away from the 1A2.

Just to give you a scope of work here:
Lines: 3
Stations: 10

If the amphenol/modular adapters (not harmonicas per se, just a single RJ11 jack connecting to pins 1,2,26,27 - www.phonegeeks.com/modtoamad.html SE153-AM-01) do not work for certain stations/locations I plan just to cut the amphenol off and use a standard 2 pair jack. I've planned on at least a few being hacked to death or some pairs not being usable.

When I get home I'll post some pictures so you can see what I'm dealing with. You can then tell me if I'm crazy for attempting this alone.

Thanks to all who replied.

Mike

since your never going to need the connector on the end of the 25 pair again I would just cut them off, and use a $2.00 flush mount jack rather than the $12 adapter .

Save some money and have a better looking install

The SE153-AM-01 is just going to pick up the w/bl and w/or pairs off the cable wherever you use them. Your choice- use them at every location and and pull everything except the feed off the block in the can and and just re-use the w/bl and w/or from each cable. Cut them down on the opposite side of the block from the feed. Provide another block at the other end of the feed by your KSU and cross connect.

-Hal

If it were me I would probably just put a biscuit jack at each location and be done with it.

Here are the "before" pics of the job and what I'm working with:

Picture A (Basement):
I have no idea what you call this old patch panel, but it will be replaced with a single 66 block with a 25 pair cross-connect back to the Partner.



Picture B (Basement/20 feet away):
This is the old 1A2. I intend to reuse the backboard and pull off the dialers and jacks left behind on the left hand side of the board. In its place will be (2) 66 Blks and the Partner.



What a mess...

Picture "A" is not a patch panel. It's a 66QAB 50 pair X-Connect terminal.

Personally, I'd rip that out as well and redo each cable on it's own 66 block (BIX would be even better). Sorry, had to get my shot in there.

Picture "B" is as stated a mess, but you should have no problem cleaning that part up either.

I have no idea what you call this old patch panel, but it will be replaced with a single 66 block

Why? Looks perfectly good to me. It's not a "patch panel" and those are 66 blocks. Just rewire, get rid of one. It's nice to have that can.

-Hal

Hal,

Do you really think I should reuse something that is 40+ years old? I figured since I have to do this, I might as well go all the way and just replace everything but the wire itself. No?

Re; Pic A - Keep in mind that each of those 25 pair cables (except for the cross-connect back to the 1A2) is going to ONE STATION per cable. I planned on just trimming all but the two pairs I need and consolidating on a single 66 Block (has enough room for the needs of this job).

I always try to keep it as simple as possible... an old IT habit I suppose.

Correction: I incorrectly stated that "block" was a patch. Whoops. My bad.

Trim back the unused pairs, yes. Please don't completely cut them off. You may need them in the future. Just pull them loose, straighten them out, tape the ends and keep them stored neatly within the terminal.

Good point Ed... although my Grandmother will be long gone by the time we will need any other pairs. But you're 100% right... I'll just tape 'em up. And when you say "keep them stored neatly in the terminal"... what do you mean? Tuck them behind the 66? Sorry that's a very n00b/sparkie question, but I have to ask.

Good telephone tech Karma I suppose... I can just see some tech coming in there in 10 years and saying "Thank god the guy who did this left the other pairs!!" LOL... Have I mentioned this house is about 100 years old?

This old phone guy would use spit blocks and punch em down, on a backboard of course. Sure you can just hide them behind the blocks, but it'd look a whole lot better and if you every wanted to run another pair you'd just run a jumper. No muss no fuss.

Bill-

As much as I appreciate your attention to detail, and I REALLY DO want to make this install as professional as possible: I need to bang this entire project out BY MYSELF (I don't do this everyday, so it's slower for me) within 1-2 days over a weekend. I really don't care if it doesn't look "perfect".. It's in a basement and I think it will still look better than what's existing!

I actually intend NOT to install a backboard on that wall (at least not during the initial install)... There's only so much time in a day (or two).... and it will never be more than a single 66 during my tenure maintaining this system. Let the new owners of the house deal with it in a few years.

Do you really think I should reuse something that is 40+ years old?

What! Only 40 years? They are practically new. Unless they have been exposed to water they should be fine. I would just leave everything as is especially if you aren't going to use a backboard. Do like Ed suggests and put the cover back on when you are done.

-Hal

You may be right... I looked closely at my pictures of this block and it does seem to be in good condition. Maybe I'll just reuse it and save a lot of headache.

Here's a close-up of the existing block. I have no clue when/if it was ever replaced, how old it is, etc.


Question is: DUMP IT or KEEP IT?

Wow, that's a GTE installation. I thought that it was, but the close-up confirmed it. Must be west of LA, huh?

I'd keep it. It can't be that damp or that terminal would have been corroded years ago. Just pick out the first two pairs of each station cable and punch them down in vertical succession. Insulate and store the remaining pairs for future use. At the other end of the tie cable, you'll have all of your station pair assignments come out in order on the new block that you install.

Oh and don't listen to MooreTel, he's quoting you Canadian (old Northern Telecom) part numbers. He doesn't understand 66 blocks. That is a Reliable R66A1-50-MH.

Keep it, clean up the wiring like Ed said then find the cover that belongs to it.

Hmmmm I wonder where the cover is??? I didn't even know there was one, but now that I look at the metal bracket, it totally makes sense.

Yes, this is Verizon (formerly GTE) territory in West Los Angeles. Good call Ed.

If you can't find the cover and even care about it, I think that I have some of them. Otherwise, it has been functioning this long without a cover, so I don't see it as being an issue.

So is THIS the NIU from the telco?? I was wondering where the hell the MPOE was. If you had to guess where on the block would the lines from Verizon actually terminate?

No, not even close. The MPOE (Minimum Point of Entry) or NIU (Network Interface Unit) is a device where the individual lines terminate before they enter the building. This can be via overhead or underground cables. Regardless, these cables will terminate on a protector or an NIU. This/these can be installed indoors or outdoors.

The wiring and equipment that you have shown is all system wiring that is unrelated to the MPOE. Here is what a typical network interface looks like, but due to the age of the house, I doubt that this is what you have:

I've seen an NIU before, but you said the system looked "GTE" and I got confused. I'm 32 and I had to really dig to think of a time when the PHONE COMPANY installed phone systems - now it makes sense!

Let me ask you this: In a 1A2 system, where would the CO lines I need to use for the future Avaya system be? At the big ole block in Pic A, or somewhere adjacent to the 1A2 in Pic B? I will trace this all out on the day of the install, but any granularity I can get in the meantime the better I can strategize. There's a good possibility the NIU itself is somewhere near the 1A2 in the basement (this is also where the city power comes in) and I just didn't notice it.

I hesitate messing with anything over there as the system is in a very precarious state right now. If something goes wrong I won't be able to fix it. Hence the stupid questions.

The lines enter the system in the main gray cabinet. When you remove the cover and unlock the swing gate (quarter-turn screw on the left side of the frame), you will see two 66 blocks in the base of the unit. The lines enter on the lower-left side of the right-hand block. These terminations will be labeled "T" and "R" times six. The first "T/R" pair signifies line one, and so on down to line six.

The cable that feeds into these terminals are your incoming lines from the outside world, which would be fed into the Partner system as CO lines.

Very good Ed. Thank you so much for your detailed and concise responses.

There are quite a few 1A2 folks here who can assist you through this transition. It is not as complicated as it seems. Partner only needs two dedicated pairs per station and you have plenty to work with, so you are in good shape. I assure you that the existing wiring that you have is better than any new wiring that could be provided. Quality standards are much lower today than back then.

It's midnight here, so we'll have to discuss this tomorrow or at a later date. You've come to the right place for support on this project.

Hey Ed, how did you know GTE installed this? Just wondering...

Waldron -

You've got a 25 pair cable going back from that metal "can" to the KSU. It's looped to both blocks in the terminal (to allow multiple terminations). Like the guys said - Strip all the station cables off of the blocks and then reterminate the first two pairs sequentially down one of the blocks.

You don't have 10 cables going into that terminal. Maybe seven at the most, so you'll use 14 pairs tops. Where do you plan on placing the Partner? By the KSU? By the Terminal? Someplace else? If the partner is going by the old KSU, identify the feed cable, remove it and reterm it. The first 14 pair will be your seven stations.

As far as how to spare the remaining 23 pair in the station cables, fold them neatly into sections about 4" shorter then the height of the can. Tape the ends so they're in nice neat bundles, label them and hang them over the hook in the center of the can.

While I was always a firm believer in never cutting off an amphenol, and while using 153 adapters would certainly be the "professional" way to do the job, I don't think you'll ever need amphenols again. So don't feel bad about cutting off the connectors and putting blocks on.

Stop in and ask whatever you need. We're all here to help.

Sam

You guys have been an invaluable resource! Thanks so much for all the great advice. The system is going in weekend after next, so I'll post some job-in-progress and final pics when I have them. I can't think of any questions that weren't answered here, but will post back if there are any late breaking issues.

I have to disagree with you Sam , to me a flush mount jack on the wall is a cleaner , "more professional "look than a 25 pair cable coming out of the wall with adapter on the end (or even tucked in the wall} with a line cord going through a plate and a hole .

to me a flush mount jack on the wall is a cleaner , "more professional "look than a 25 pair cable coming out of the wall with adapter on the end (or even tucked in the wall} with a line cord going through a plate and a hole.

I agree in that instance and it's normally what I do. But what about when the cables are not coming out of the wall? Many times they are run along the baseboard, maybe up through a hole in the floor. The cable is exposed and a surface jack is not going to hide the other 23 pairs. I think in this instance just using adapters and what's there originally looks better.

how did you know GTE installed this? Just wondering...

By the way the color markings are done on the wires. Look closely at the w/bl's and w/or's and tell me what the difference is from the 25 pr that we normally use. I wouldn't go so far as to say that when you see that cable it was always done by GTE because I still have some here. But it did come from GTE many years ago.

-Hal

Hal & Skip -

Sorry if I wasn't clear about it. When I said "Professional" I meant 1A2 professional - i.e. if you were ever going to use the wiring for another similar system. Obviously the cleanest looking job is the most professional. Having 23 pairs taped up on a wall is going to look like hell as is a mated pair of amphenlols hanging out of a hole in the wall.

I would definitely use a flush mount wall jack to cover a hole in a wall and on an exposed wall I would mate a 153 adapter to the existing amphenol and cover it with a SE-700 housing - if they're still available (I think that's the right number).

It's good that you guys are paying attention and keeping me honest. Too often I know what I want to say - I just don't fully explain it.

Sam

Sam:

The SE700A's are still available, in fact I just got 45 of them in recently.

The SE700A's are still available...

Replacing or installing a new housing is one way to help to clean up the installation if a jack can't be used.

-Hal

Ed -

Are you using them as amphenol covers or for some other function?

Years ago we used them as external mounting boxes for things like buzzers. On Tele Resources 32 systems we used to drill them out and mount Sonalerts (for external bells in them).

Wait! The sonalerts went in the larger size (for 50 pair cables) SE750A, maybe?

Sam

Both, Sam. Nowadays, I insist upon using them when using a 259A adapter. We have a lot of government and medical accounts that still have 25 pr. cables for ISDN sets.

I wish I could still get the Harris/Dracon ones. They look so much cleaner and professional to me. I only have about ten of those left and I won't part with them unless absolutely necessary.

I've also used a pair of them back-to-back on a wall to get to an electrical outlet when there isn't one where the system is installed. :shhh: , don't tell anyone that I ever did that.

My lips are sealed.

Sam

Can anyone post pictures of a partial 25 pair termination on a 66 block with cleaned up extra pairs so I can have a visual reference? Namely what Sam is talking about. Just trying to wrap this n00b head around what I should do to be "future-tech-friendly".

Sam to answer some of your questions:
KSU/Partner will replace the 1A2 in Pic A above. So the cross-connect that's already wired to the 66 will be reterminated like you suggest on a new 66 at the KSU.

I figure at some of the station ends that haven't been hacked (most have intact amphenols connected to the existing system phones), I will just use the amphenol/modular 153 adapter. It seems cleaner to me than cutting and wiring to a biscuit... Less mess less fuss and quite simply uses 1/26, 2/27. I already bought jacks and 153 adapters to cover the entire job, so I can mix and match as needed. Of course I have no amphenols at the system end, so it's just raw wire there termed to the existing 66 in Pic B. Is there some sort of disadvantage to using the adapters?

Quick digression: How come my avatar won't display?

Is there some sort of disadvantage to using the adapters?

No, not at all other than aesthetics as mentioned.

You need a certain number of posts (I forgot how many) before you can have an avatar.

-Hal

Interesting, Hal. The stripes on the wire are different than a standard 25 pair cable.

Jeff:

Western Electric used "band marking", like what you see today where a base color just has a colored band around it every inch or so. Chances were that if you saw a key system installed in the sixties with band-marked pairs and gray cable jackets, it was Western Electric, hence a Bell job.

General Telephone's cable manufacturing arm (General cable) did the longitudinal stripe. GTE also used the "purplish-beige" jacket on the large cables. Later on, they lightened the hue of the beige jacket, but still kept the same striping.

Prior to that, in the early days of plastic insulation, the pairs were in solid colors for both companies. Today, it's anybody's game, so things aren't as cut and dried as they used to be. And here ends your telephone history lesson for today.

waldrondigital,
If you still feel apprehensive about this install, I'll donate my services just for the love of 91 year old grandmoms everywhere. I'm located in the IE, so it's a decent hike, but we can work it out!

I'll donate the materials, Kevin! You can never repay what your mother, grandmother or great-grandmother for what they gave you. Great idea.

Offering to donate time and materials... You guys are beyond awesome! I OWE YOU guys for all your help!

After all the questions you guys have answered, I feel pretty confident about this gig. I have prefabricated my punch blocks and preprogrammed the Avaya system. All that's left is pulling the 1A2 out and re-terminating the cable. Should be a pretty straightforward job but I'm prepared for a surprise or two. If there are late breaking issues, you can be sure I will be posting in here on Saturday. If there are lingering issues I may go back on Sunday.

Thanks again for everything... I'm bringing my camera so I can post the "after" pics.

Here are the pictures of the pre-fabbed blocks, complete with patch cables.

I created the block on the left and the patch cables at top, the two right blocks were purchased with the jacks preinstalled (but I installed the bridging clips).


You can see a large copy here .

The question I have to ask is how did you do the lettering on those covers?

-Hal

Brother Labeler with BLACK/CLEAR tape.

I was thinking that you had them engraved but it had to be a label maker with clear tape. As hard as I looked I couldn't make it out though.

Looks like that should work for you.

-Hal

I completed the system installation yesterday. It all worked out great! There were some surprises, such as the additional 3 extensions that couldn't be found in my pictures which were cross connected to a block in the attic.

But thanks to all your help, I knew what to expect.

I need to go back on-site this week to install some wire management pieces, and will take some pictures to post.

Thanks for keeping us updated. Your feedback will help to assure many others that it's not as scary as it looks. We are looking forward to pictures, so please don't forget us.

Here are the "after" pics of the job.

[img]https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3293/2868519627_6fdd94c3d6.jpg?v=0[/img]





[img]https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3042/2868506399_4d26d00244.jpg?v=0[/img]







Thanks again for everything! You can see the full set of pictures at my flickr page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/waldrondigital/sets/72157607363960724/

Also you can see a full report on a blog within a few days or so:
https://www.waldrondigital.com

THANKS AGAIN TO EVERYONE IN HERE!!! YOU ARE THE BEST!

... oh and you may know my Grandmother. She's rather famous.



The one and only.... Phyllis Diller.

My offering as a reward for all your great help is an autographed photo mailed to you. PM me with the name you want on the photo and your mailing address. You must have responded to my post to qualify.

She and her assistant LOVE the new system. It works wonderfully thanks to you guys.

Cheers.

Very nice installation! It passes my inspection, and is better-looking than 90% of the crap that I see installed by the "professionals."

You were operating under additional stress, knowing that you were reusing an outdated wiring system, and doing it as a volunteer for a relative, too.

My favorite Phyllis quote:

"Never go to bed mad. Stay up and fight."

Here are the before and after pics together:

SYSTEM BEFORE/AFTER
[img]https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3191/2869361116_f291276273.jpg?v=0[/img]
[img]https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3070/2868514519_4592f8d479.jpg?v=0[/img]

66 BLOCK BEFORE/AFTER
[img]https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3181/2869365864_fa68d1ed22.jpg?v=0[/img]
[img]https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3293/2868519627_6fdd94c3d6.jpg?v=0[/img]

well waldron! we never know who we are talking to on the net, Although the job isnt perfect its a great first try in my opinion and if your grandmother is happy its what counts. we all have to start somewhere!

oh and its refreshing to see the famous have basements like us all!

Your grandmother is and always was a "Grand Gal". Thank her for me for all the years of entertainment.

Grandma gave me endless hours of joy. She's a class act.

Please thank her for me.

Sam

Thank her for me as well!

1 last note: It looks like something is lying on the top of the Partner ACS unit. I would get it off as soon as possible because the power supply for each of the cards is on the top.

Nice job, alot better than that guy on dsl reports.

You should know that in our industry, someone who says thanks gets treated like gold

My hats off to you.

Hey dexman, the thing on top of the carrier is a bubble wrapped CD with the Partner manuals on it. I forgot to take it off there... thx for the reminder. Didn't notice it.

Hey guys, just wanted to pop in to let you know that I'm selling my Grandmother's 1A2s on eBay with a signed photo of her and the phone for auction. These are working phones.

https://shop.ebay.com/merchant/waldrondigital

What a great idea!

Matt - your idea was the best. Genius old chap! And thanks for the bid...

lol. No problem. I'm trying very, very hard to seperate wants from needs .... but I'm powerless when it comes to 1A2 equipment, especially in this case. Best of luck with the auction, I think you are going to do well. I'll pass the word about this auction around to some other 1A2 hobbyists I've met over the last year or so.