First off let me introduce myself since this my first post. I am a systems administrator (one of those IT guys I keep reading about on your forum) except I know when something has me licked.

After a fire at one of my clients, they decided to build new. I am taking care of the data wiring, have did that for quite some time. What has me a bit puzzled is the choice in phone equipment. Unfortunately, I don't have any say because the owner is determined he knows better (and doesn't want to spend additional money on a PBX).

-Cabling: Cat5E, most places are either 4 or 6 drops for multiple items (it amazed me how many optometrist measurement devices are now Ethernet capable.) I know many of you guys don't like running Cat5 for voice but again, out of my hands.

-Phones: Typical office superstore with 4 line up to 16 extensions. I tried like a dickens to get him to go with my vendor and let them install a small ESI or Vodavi system but had no luck.

-Lines: Unfortunately he has a long standing with his cable company providing him 4 lines and has had no problems. Same as the phones, owner knows better...I'd rather deal with the telco but once again, he pays the bills that let me continue eating...and from the size of my gut, I like to do that often!

All of the Cat 5 cabling will go to patch panels and I planned on taking whatever type of output from the cable company to a 66. What I'm not sure about is how I should "hub" all these phones together.

My initial thought was: Floor drop patch panel -> Patch cable -> Telephone patch panel where all 4 pairs are connected together and taking the lines from the 66 back into a 8P8C modular connector into the first port of the panel to feed the voice circuits into each pair.

On the station end, 8P8C modular at the wall that splits into two 6P4C to enter the phone.

I obviously know there's no real "right" way to do this as 16 extensions SHOULD be on a PBX but for now I'm stuck working with this without option of using an outside telephone guy.

I will deeply appreciate any suggestions and criticisms.

Thanks!

What I would do is similar to your first idea. A telephone patch panel with patch cords from it as necessary to the ports on the premises wiring patch panel that are for the jacks used for the phones.

Wire the back of the telephone patch panel with individual 4 pair cables as 568A and terminate the other ends (all four pair) on split 66M blocks. You will need two blocks, 6 cables per side. Then what you will do is use cross connect wire to loop all the white/blues together and then over to line 1 on another block with the COs from the cable modem. Do the same with the W/O, W/G and W/Br for lines 2,3 and 4.

Back at eack jack use a splitter to provide 2 separate 6pos/4pin jacks.

This will provide maximum flexibility not only for moving phones but should he give in later and go for a key system.

-Hal

I'm guessing from your email that the customer wants to use 4 line non-ksu phones. Sure, it's his money and his business. If it doesn't work well, then it's his problem.

I would bring the 16 Cat 5 voice cables to 3 66 blocks mounted next to the feed coming in from the cable company. Cut the cables down on one side of the blocks and then loop the 4 lines to each of the cables, terminating the cross connects on the opposite side of the block. Use bridging clips to establish a connection. (This will help you to troubleshoot in the event you've got a bad set that screws up the whole shebang.)

Now you're all set for when the phones don't work. Doing it this way, it should be easy enough to have a telephone vendor install a real phone system and connect it up properly.

Sam

Looks like Hal beat me to it.

Sam

If you can get him to punch those 16 drops down directly on 66 blocks Sam.

-Hal

Nope, I tried. All of the premise wiring onto patch panels then jump to the telephone patch panel via patch cable. Sounds like a "patchy" day!

Please see if this is logically laid out properly. I'm a very visual type of person...especially on things I'm not very familiar with.



If all is good, there's only one thing I am unsure on. On Block #1, the first four pair will be telco lines; where will I connect the 128 cross connects to?

Or did I just confuse myself even more??

Thanks!

You'll loop CO line one to all your w/bl pairs CO line two to all the white orange and down the line. You'll have two jacks at each station location one for lines one and two and one for lines three and four.

I didn't read all the post in here but these things work on 600 feet of cable max per the manufacture. 16 phones that's just a little over 37 feet of cable per phone. These things are also a pain to trouble shoot when one phone goes bad and causes line troubles. I'm sure I repeated some of what Sam and Hal said.

Please see if this is logically laid out properly. I'm a very visual type of person...especially on things I'm not very familiar with.

Instead of the 48&48&32 cross connects you should LOOP down each of your three 66 blocks using the 66 blade on your punch tool that doesn't cut the wire. So you will have only the ends of the loops which is 4 pair from each block to cross connect over the the cable company block.

-Hal

I was not aware of the 600' limitation. Is this just limiting intercom functionality or will no stations be able to use CO lines?

The building's size is 60x60 and includes a second floor. The telephone room is near the rear corner. Looks like its time to break out the blueprints to see if its even possible to use this system.

And if you use CAT5 those distances will probably be even less.

-Hal

Sounds like he will have to do with less phones or put in a system....unfortunately, I think he'll just do less phones.

The distance affects the features like hold, intercom, page. For a building the size you're describing they need a system, but all you can do is inform them and go from there. I've seen a couple of these systems that are exceeding the 600ft manufactures limit. So what the drop dead distance is will be anyone's guess.

I don't know this system at all. However, if I was you, I'd do the following:

a) have all cables & X-Connects ready B/4 you get the phones
b) make sure client keeps the sales receipts for those phones and can return them when they find that they don't work
c) have the name & number of a reputable system's dealer on speed dial.

Dave, I'm way ahead of the dealer, I routinely used an outfit from Columbus to take care of my Vodavi system when things are needed.

Hal, I don't quite understand the LOOP concept you're speaking of. Can you point me in the right direction...perhaps a photo?

Between past installations I've dealt with and a pretty complicated setup for an inmate telephone system I routinely deal with, I can examine quite a bit of finished work closely...just knowing what these LOOPs are puzzles me!

Loop from the incoming line one (for example) to the first pair of each station cable.

Line 2 goes to the 2nd pair of each cable, etc.

Each cable at the end would have all 4 lines available, split out as you wish/need.

OR Loop the incoming line down the left side of the block opposite the 1st pair (again for example) of each station cable & use bridging clips to connect to the station cable.

Same for each line.

Here is a link. https://www.homephonewiring.com/add-line3.html#hub-wiring
Basically you are not cutting the cross connect wire. You are continuing it on to the next set of terminals.

Similar to the loops on this block...but obviously to the appropriate pairs?

https://www.homephonewiring.com/images/dsl-66-photo.gif

That site doesn't allow direct linking of images...but I looked on there and yes, you would just loop each pair for each line.

will the cable co. equipment even be able to drive the ringers in 16 phones. Most telco lines would have a problem with that depending on the REN of each phone

(You can always just add a space to the end of the image URL to view it w/o going through the site...it strips the HTTP_REFERRER header)

The REN is supposedly 0.15-0.25 per phone according to manufacturer. Cable company said they guaranteed a REN of 5....it only took me 5 different people to find someone who knew what REN was.

Ampleworks, that picture is exactly what we are talking about. (You can copy and paste the URL to see it.)

-Hal

I could not find a clear measurement (and I suppose it will vary by cabling manufacturer) as to cable length versus wire length.

12" of Belden CDT 5E cable resulted in 12 5/8" of blue wire. On a 100' drop, that's an extra 6' of wire!

I knew the difference existed but didn't realize it was that large!

Edited: measurement was blue pair

I think I've got it figured out now thanks to you guys!

I'm looking for a good online retailer to get 66 blocks, bridge clips, and cross connection wire. My local electrical supply doesn't stock much telco stuff aside from a few jacks and Cat 5.

You can get all that from these guys. They sell to non dealers.

Bill, am I missing something or does Telephoneparts not sell 66 block covers? I can't find them anywhere!

I'm not sure about the covers, give them a call. Some 66 blocks come with the clear covers.

4 line phones are not cheap in price. There are several small systems that will handle 16 stations and be competitive in price with that many non ksu phones. Besides as has already been mentioned that much wire and layout will be continues problems unless you use a system.

16 of those 4 line phones is the same price as a Vodavi STS installed one with 8 real endpoints

If you figured my labor doing all that extra work with the cabling, it'd probably get really close to evening out the STS system with 16 endpoints.

Lucky for him, I work cheaply!

I have in hand one of these RCA ViSYS 4-line phones. The user manual is showing you need two separate jacks with CO lines 1 & 2 going to one and CO lines 3 & 4 going to the other (brown and orange unused on both 568B jacks).

I'm still confused how I will move lines 3 and 4 from the brown and green pairs on my 66 lock to the second jack for lines 3 & 4 into the blue and green positions without doing any kind of funky stuff with jackleg cables or splitters on the station end.

Well, they ACTUALLY DO make 2 port biscuit jacks and two hole (and more) plates for keystone jacks you know.

But then that's just me...

-Hal

Hal you goof

In a 3600 sq ft building, I have a total of 160 jacks Most places have 4.

Should I be punching the first two pairs to patch panel 1 then the second two pairs to patch panel 2?

This is why I would just use 66 blocks and 6 pin jacks...
Blue and orange pair to one jack, L1 and L2
Green and brown pair to one jack, L3 and L4

I grabbed one of the panels and come to find out its not like the ones I typically use, these are numbered vertically then horizontally.

Life gets a little simpler....well not as simple as a key system but close.

The owner went with all cat 5 and RJ45 due to future equipment requirements. Apparently a lot of optical equipment is starting to gain ethernet capability.

Ah, this thread is over two months old. You expect me to read the whole thing over again to see what you were talking about? Anyway it looks like I addressed your problem in the first reply.

-Hal

I'll send a box for you to return your cape in.

Ladies and gentlemen, Super Hal has left the building.

Notwithstanding the "smiley" maybe we should send Hal an apology and send you a time machine and the names of a few qualified installers.

At the beginning of this fiasco, someone with experience, credentials and an authoritative voice should have disabused the owner from this hare-brained scheme. It's as though he decided to buy 40 bicycles instead a school bus. No professional phone guy whom I know would have allowed this to get this far.

No one has mentioned -- (I think... I, like Hal, cannot go back and read the whole painful story) -- the humongous sh*t storm that will ensue when just one of the "Made by Mattel" 4-line "phones for little people" goes wacko and takes down the whole building. Does each one require 4 AA cells? Replacing them will be a nice lifetime job for someone.

Who in their right mind (oh...wait...that's YOU) is going to go out and start pulling bridging clips on a Monday morning to get the office up again?

"Nightmare waiting to happen" should be the title of this thread.

I would patch the entire 8 conductor cable through and do the splitting outside of the faceplate/jack, since it seems as though it may change in the future. If you rewire it all for 2, 4 conductor jacks and put on new faceplates, you may be doing three times the work you need to.

Create an 8 conductor end, that takes pins 1/2 + 4/5 to a 4 conductor jack and pins 3/6 + 7/8 to a 4 conductor jack.

I'll post a picture link in a bit, to show you what i'm referring to.

Tony, good idea.

(B.O.G.B.S)

Seems we are going round and round and round here with the same answer being given. And you are just confirming my observation that all IT guys are lunatics.


-Hal

Will SOMEBODY please lock this ?!!! All the explanations, descriptions, and questions have been asked/answered at least twice now. Arthur had the best answer, in my opinion, but what do I know. John C.

Ha! Sorry Hal!

That's what I get for not reading the whole thread ;p

Arthurs , correct at some point the owner is going to realize the lunacy of the arrangement and turn to a Pro to straighten the mess out and install some real phones

That's what I get for not reading the whole thread ;p

Don't feel bad, I'm just as guilty. I didn't even remember that I made that post until I went back and looked.

-Hal

I said right off I highly suggested that the owner go with a system rather than this cluster**** of bigbox phones but owner seemed to know best. It's actually going to cost him more by the time he's charged for additional labor...but remember, owner knows best. The $1000 or so that he's "saving" by not going to a system is a drop in the hat compared to other equipment (optometrist) he's buying and I still don't understand it.

I posted here hoping to get help and received some great information from some very helpful people. I guess we were all new at one time or another and had to be told something a couple different ways...apparently new guys are now exempt from this.

If a mod wants to lock this thread, that's fine to me. It's a great thread to point at for "what not to do"

I've just been watching this thread---didn't want to really add anything---it was just too, too painful to even read much less write anything. At least, Jeff, you're aware of the overall problems that this "solution" will pose.

In the early ninety's, we took over a real estate customer with the same set-up--but with Radio Shack phones. He insisted on no system, wanted to keep all of his DuoPhone phones but instead of the rat's nest he had at the MDF, he wanted all new cable and jacks. We resisted, and resisted, but finally gave in....and after all new cable, 66 blocks and jacks, he still had static on some phones. At least we were able to troubleshoot it (although it took much more time with this than a system) and find out that he had maybe 4 or 5 phones that were bad. Guess who's fault THAT was in his mind??? After sending him to RS to get some new phones, we kept in touch with him for about 6 months, then luckily, he never called back. He's been out of business for about 5 years now. I wonder why???

There is much good information in this thread to give to customers who are considering non-ksu systems. Am I missing something? Why not use a XBlue X16 system? Not a full blown system, but maybe an ecomonical alternative as long as the customer knows what features he is missing.

I don't think it's a matter of cost but a matter of stupidity and ignorance on the part of the these customers. They have it in their mind that they don't want a "system" for whatever twisted reason. The XBlue is a system, and by virtue of that is not acceptable no matter how you try to explain to him that it is a less expensive and more practical alternative.

That's the problem today. Back before 1984 if you needed phones you called your Bell company and they would install a 1A2. You had no choice and very few decisions to make but you were assured of consistent quality and operation. After '84 it became a do-it-yourself free for all with so much junk as well as good equipment available and everybody a telecom expert. Every day I wonder how communications even works any more and the answer is that every day it is getting worse and worse because of fools and those who think they are smart enough to re-invent the wheel.

I've lived long enough to have seen that as long a business is restricted to qualified people you are going to have a quality product. When you grant the general public access to that information, equipment and products it's going to turn to S***. Prime offenders (not just related to telecom) are the internet, big box home centers, digital photography- I could go on.

-Hal

Jeff.

Rather than monkeying with custom cables on the phone end, this may be a solution. I will say it is a solution waiting for a problem, and yes there are many more ways to do this correctly.


At least with this you don't have to cable them up.

Leviton 47609-4x4
[img]https://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibcGetAttachment.jsp?cItemId=PNuDL1C7eTn3YdDL9i8OyA[/img]

I agree wholeheartedly with igadget. With these Breakout Modules, you can run your Cat 5e to each of those drops, but terminate at the TC (Telephone Closet) on a standard Cat 5e Patch Panel (which you're already skilled at).

Then simply patch in the 16 ports to the ports on the 47609's (you'll need 4 of them).

At the Workstation end, install your dual-6pos/4pin jacks for those woeful 4-line POTS sets, so at least the TC end is set up for the inevitable upgrade. Then, you only have to rewire the Workstation end and plug in a VoIP System at the TC.

That is, when the infamous OWNER comes to his senses...