I have a pet peeve and this affects all of us. Today's cable jobs always want a separate C5 data jack for voice use. This is supposed to future proof the customer "in case we go with a VoIP system later". IP systems are designed to share the PC data jack. Having dedicated jacks creates a dual network. This may offer some QOS and up time benefit but is it worth it?

Avaya dealers probably are saying "so what is the problem?", but aren't most of the systems the rest of us sell still using RJ11? When a 4P4C plug is inserted into an RJ45 jack, it bends and fatigues pins 1-2 & 7-8. I have also been on many service calls involving an RJ45 jack where the phone cord has been pulled tight and the plug has become ajar in the jack. Depending on the job and the customer, I have actually retrofitted 8P8C plugs on my line cords.

When I have the opportunity for input, I always encourage C3 and RJ11 for voice. If C5 cable is a must but the jacks aren't, I install RJ11s and satisfy IT by leaving a service loop for "future".

Is all this being decided by those same professionals who request RJ45 plugs or am I missing something?

I think it's pretty stupid to use 8 pin jacks for voice. I always install 6 pin jacks and cat 3 cable. For whatever reason, at my college, they use 8 pin jacks and cat 3 cable. All this does is confuse the end user who will then try to plug their computer's ethernet cable into the wrong jack.
Seeing as the only visible difference to the customer is the color of the jack, I can't really blame them for not knowing where to plug it in.

EXACTLY!!!

Jim
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Speaking from a secure undisclosed location.

I absolutely agree with what you are saying about a 6P plug damaging the 8P jack. That's well known except in geek circles where they refuse to accept it. So let them plug an NIC into a ringing phone line and see how long it lasts.

As for Avaya, the reason they have 8P/4C jacks on the Partner is because it's the upgrade path from the Merlin. The Merlin "breadbox", 820D2 etc. that used Merlin phones actually used what is now 568B wiring and jacks. (Matter of fact that's where the 568B standard came from.) So the 8P jacks on the Partner are so the old wiring could be re-used- plug and play. Funny thing is that required plugging the Partner phones with regular line cords and 6P/4C plugs into the old 8P/8C wall jacks, unless you retained the old D8W line cords. Maybe that's how it started.

But of course whenever a CG or IT "professional" gets their hands on a Partner they think the 8P jacks are so they can use patch cords. I've even seen Partner phones connected to the wall with big blue patch cords. Guess they think that makes them IP phones or something.

-Hal

Hal, I use CAT 7 patch cords for connecting POTS phones now... the performance improvement is truly amazing! :db:

Jim
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Speaking from a secure undisclosed location.

I'm pretty sure Jeff means 6P4C.

Jim
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Speaking from a secure undisclosed location.

That last was a response to a post that seems to have disappeared....

Get out the hip waders. Dave you're going to have the RJ police on you. I can see the smoke rising in Virginia from here.

When I find an 8p8c jack used for phone I either replace it or I do have some of the adaptors to reduce it down to 6 or 4 pin.

That was my post Jim, I pressed the wrong button and deleted it lmao, your not crazy. As I was saying I install c5e for both unless they want c6 for data but I only use voice jacks for the sets.

Not sure what you meant by the 6P4C, the Leviton USOC jacks I use are 6P6C.

Leviton (and most other manufacturers ) make 6p4c
and 6p6c I use 6p4c leviton as I recall the 6c are more expensive and I don't install any equipment that requires them

Jeff, my comment was that I notice you like to save money and why use 6p6c when you can use 6p4c that are cheaper, as Skip said there isn't much out there that use 6p6c

I have not found a keystone jack that is only 4 pin. The Leviton 41106-R*6 are 6 pin. When I use a biscuit jack, then I will just use a 4 pin.

Bill, I should have put quotes on "RJ45 plugs" because it was my attempt at a dig at the self-appointed pros.

Sorry to jump in here late, I don't see the objection with running all Cat5/6 (maybe with the exception of small offices)

Overseas where I have worked in Cabling such as UK & Australia, your average cabling contractor will of never touched cat3 in the last 20 yrs, its only in the states that its referred to as "voice AND data"

I don't think I've used cat3 for at least 3-4 years now. Whats up for discussion is the jacks used for voice.

I did one job where the written spec called for 8p jacks for voice that 'would accept 6p plugs without damage' or some such. The same job required gray blank fillers in the keystone plates and 'front terminated' patch panels.

Russ, you are absolutely correct. Thanks so much for keeping it simple. I tend to make things unnessarily complicated.

your correct Jeff , the leviton are 6p6c I was confusing them with the allentell 6p4c keystone jacks

I'll have to ask about those next time I talk to my Graybar rep. I've got about a million Leviton jacks to use up though

Dave, that's the way the world is going, like it or not. The "standards" require 8C jacks.

Interesting thread guys, thanks for all of the different POV's. We have been using CAT5e with RJ45C jacks for quite a while, say the last 5-6 years and have had only one jack that needed to be replaced as most of our clients' station sets tend to remain in place. We, too, have had to make upon occasion, an 8 pin plug to attach to a line cord to fit into an RJ45C jack at times just to prevent damage IF someone was going to be constantly plugging and unplugging their set, but that happens only rarely from our experience.

Larry I wasn't aware of that. From a purely functional and reliability stand point that makes no sense, but what is, is. I haven't seen the standards in so long I'm sure there's lots in there I'm not aware of. Thanks for sharing we rely on those of you who hold the credentials for this information.

OK, I have to ask: What is an RJ45C jack?

So I ran into one of our phone techs today and asked him why they chose to use 8 pin jacks and cat 3 cable. In the past, they would treat them like a normal USOC jack and terminate 1 pair on each jack so the user could have 2 jacks at their desk. Due to a lot of failures and mislabeled cables installed by contractors, they now require the 8 pin jack to be wired with all 4 pairs. They then test the voice cable on all 4 pairs. I still don't necessarily agree with using an 8 pin jack for voice, but this kind of makes sense.

OK, Jeff. You're a computer guy. What if some nitwit plugs a PC into a 8C phone jack that is connected to a POTS line. What kind of damage will be done to the PC with 90 volts ringing into it?

Um, nothing good will come of it

The "standards" require 8C jacks.

And that's why people who know something disagree with those "standards" that aren't really standards at all. They are just something written up by an organization and followed because nothing else exists to illustrate another way.

-Hal

Do the people who write those standards know where to put their RJ45 plugs? :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Ed:
Ed, our local computer store here sells them. They are on the shelf right next to the RJ9 connectors.

Jim
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Ranting from a secure undisclosed location.

Made a service call last week involving a problem reported that a printer, postage machine, fax, and POS Terminal at the same wallplate were not working. I found that some one had plugged the postage machine, fax, and POS Terminal into the ca5 data jack (using a splitter)and the printer into the 8 pin voice jack (because it fit). I replaced the 8 pin voice jack with 3 - 6 pin jacks, one for each of the devices. This experience conviced me to not use cat5e or cat6 jacks for voice even if the customer wants cat5 or 6 cable for voice as well as data. On another job currently in progress, the customer agreed with my suggestion to use 6 pin jacks for the voice cables even though all the cable was cat6. I did not try to talk him out of using cat6 for voice as the IT guy had suggested that all cat 6 be used.

Probably nothing at all. Since the ringing will occur on pins 4,5 of the NIC, which are pretty much dead (dummy) contacts anyway. Should it cause damage, more than likely you can replace the card with another. Usually a 10 dollar fix not including the labor.

That may be true. But consider the "down time" of the PC & you know WHO will be blamed for the snafu and it won't be their CG.

If I was ever to take the new "Standard" route, at the very least, the client would be signing a waiver ahead of time to cover MY butt.

Apart from perhaps not damaging the PC, a certain employee had to deal with not getting faxed orders and not being able to print to that printer and a lot of was time spent trying to figure out what was wrong before calling me, and they had to move heavy furniture around to get at the wallplate and then my service call charge. All that could have been avoided by using 6 pin jacks for the telco equipment in the first place. I am convinced that is the way to do it.

Gigabit ethernet is the norm now for most newer equipment, and it uses all four pairs. How well the ASIC line drivers ("protected" by 1/16th watt pull-down resistors) can handle 90VAC I honestly don't know, but I'd rather not find out the hard way, especially on an integrated (on-the-motherboard) NIC.

Jim
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Speaking from a secure undisclosed location.

I was in the computer repair business for a few years. My experience has been that people have just as much of a problem with plugging their 6p silver satin modem cable into the PC Ethernet jack as they do using the wrong jack in a faceplate. Every computer that I saw with a 10/100 NIC has pins 4 and 5 shorted. I would occasionally get a call that someone took their computer back home after I repaired it and then their phones quit working. Since pins 4 and 5 are shorted, I never had a blown NIC after someone did this.

1000base-T NICs are probably a different story. I got out of the business before those became common.

-Nelson

So are you terminating everything on patch panels, then (I hope your answer is "no"), or are you putting "voice" cables on 110 blocks instead of 66 blocks? We all have seen the discussion of how using Cat 5 for voice has no benefit, and it's a pain to terminate on 66 blocks.

Justin

Ed, the RJ45C is a surface mount. The RJ45W is a wall mount. (For wall-mount computers)

Sheesh...didn't you know that?

Wall mount computer ... Isn't that what you'd call a VoIP phone? :dance:

OR maybe, an alarm central control?

Yah, but it's not that bad on BIX. :rofl:

I knew some northerner would come along and say that. Crazy Canadians and their BIX blocks!

Justin

imagine a 110 block that works properly, oh wait thats the bix :p