I am talking with a guy who wants me to install a phone outlet into his home in Flagstaff. I am freaking out that I'll drill into the wall and there will be insulation . How do I get around the insulation.... or through it. I've only worked in Phoenix, AZ and Miami, FL where they rarely use insulation so this job will be a new adventure working where it actually freezes!

Insulation shouldn't be your biggest worry, horizontal studs should be.

To get through insulation, try using glow rods. Even fish tape will sometimes do the trick.

My favourite tool.....a metal clothes hanger. Plentiful & cheap. Open it up, bend a hook on the end and you're in business.

Invest in a 1/4" fish tape.

They don't use insulation in Miami? Of course they do!

well... the one time I ran into insulation I was doing a wallfish. luckily I had access and could feed behind the insulation. Hmmmmm.... I don't remember insulation being in the other walls. Weird.

the insulation paper is against the exterior side of the wall... right?

No the paper is a vapor barrier and it's on the inside.

Like was said, get a fish tape. In insulated walls I put several loops of string on the fish tape, push it past where your fishing and pull back up to leave the string in front of whatever you're fishing. With a bunch of loops in the string it's not hard to catch and pull the fish tape out or just attach your wire to the string an pull it back. I've never tried the rods, but I'd think the same would apply.

there are lots of ways and tools its a skill acquired through experience . how I approach it depends on the construction and available access.

First I would invest in some glow rods if you are goimg to be in the business, then drill the header place the glow rods againsgt the wall and mark from ceiling to floor. Then see if the glow rod goes all the way down to the mark.
If so cut the opening in line with the hole in the header; push apart the insulation and grab the glow rod tape on thw wire and pull it out. sounds more complecated than it is ; aftrer one or 2 you'll get the hang of it.

What's a glow rod? Does that attract fish? Seriously though..... do you have a link?

Glow rods

Skip says it best. The job at hand and the construction of the building will determine the way to do it.

Try a search engine. These are available from Klein, Greenlee, Pushpullrods, Labor Saving Devices, etc. etc. They are a set of screw together rods that can come with differnet hardware like eyes and hooks to attach a "wet noodle" or various devices to catch it in the wall. https://www.google.com/search?q=fib..._rfai=&pbx=1&fp=180c07a4ca199aa8

If I'm into finesse, I also use a MagnaPull system. https://www.magnepull.com/

Carl

Here is another rod that I use the most. The Pole

Oh I see. Just some rods that screw together. These are very useful for running cable horizontally thru a crowded space above a ceiling. But for vertical drops I use a two-foot section of heavy chain attached to about 10 feet of string. This usually works well. It is also handy to have a magnet on a stick to grab the chain in the outlet hole if the drop is not strictly vertical.

Another good way to run cable horizontally above a ceiling is to use a tennis ball. Slice it open to attach a string. and throw it as far as you can. Since you took the air out it won't bounce around much, which is a good thing.

What I would not use is a fish tape. In my experience these things have a mind of their own and are very hard to get down inside a wall to the outlet hole. Fish tape was made to be pushed thru conduit, and it is great for that, though.

I think the easiest way would be to drill through, break through the paper with a hanger, and feed through with the glow rod. It's strange, that job I mentioned I did earlier I seem to remember the paper being against the exterior because I remember feeding a glow rod between paper and a wall.

If you are going to use a fish tape for fishing wall cavities, try a wide flat tape, like this one


Very easy to control, and will pierce through the insulation.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B...KX0DER&pf_rd_r=10ZC29F2SK G85BS1F4QT

Try not to DEFACE the insulation. It'll take away from the "R" value.

I had that same wide flat Greenlee fishtape, but the plastic end came off and the whole tape wound up inside of it. Given that it is under tension, I thought it wouldn't be a smart idea to take apart the plastic housing to fix it. Unless I am mistaken.

I have that same tape by GB and I dont see any way to take it apart . I wouldn't be concerned about the tension as much as getting it apart and back together ...

like Tommy said it works great and is easy to control I use it a lot

don't throw it away. Just heat the tip with a torch and make it into a loop just like the 1/8" fish tapes.

I took a steel fish tape apart and.. BOING it said!

I would if the tape would come out. It is now wound up inside of the unit. No amount of pushing the handle will get it out. As the post above says, boing goes the tape. I went ahead and bought a regular steel leader tape instead. Works much better. Can easily bend the end to prevent it from going inside.

I forgot those Greenlee tapes shown above don't come apart easily. We had one that we were able to treat before someone wound it up all the way. And for the "boing", it's best to pay out a tape prior to taking any apart. If one doesn't do that, it becomes one of those "Oops - shouldn't have done that" events!
:scratch:

My impression is that the OP is going to drill into the wall horizontally. In that case the big concern isn't the insulation, it is the possibility of hitting a wire or pipe.

That's the way I took it as well. Once through the initial layer of gyrok, just push the drill "gently" though. With the bit or the coat hanger, you can "feel" around before doing any major damage.

as a cable guy they never taught us that but I never hit anything anyways.... thank you so much for the advise!

easy stuff! I LOVE phone work. The situation was that he wanted line two active for his office. Well, the phone company came in and activated line two but the inside wiring was screwed up. He wanted a whole new line put in for line two. He didn't even want me to try and fix it. We went into the office, drilled the hole to the outside and there was very little insulation. Heck, there was more insulation in warm Florida than in this mountain town. So I looked in the hole in the interior wall and could easily see the hole in the exterior wall. I then stuck the glow rod through the hole and went outside and tied the phone cable to it (I used cat3 as it was only for phone). Then I went inside and pulled it into the house. After installing the wall plate I went back outside and fed about a foot of cable back into the wall and then stapled the line straight down to the foundation. There was satellite cable that the customer told me to zip-tie the phone cable too which went around to the demarcation point. When I got around to the demarc I then fed the phone cable up and beanied it to the phone company line. I just realized why we shouldn't have zip tied the phone line to the satellite lines; because what happens after the satellite comes down. As for using the beanies.... inside the demarc was a mess. I forgot camera so no pictures. I can't handle criticism anyways. You'll just have to believe me that it looked good. After testing and cleanup I then went to the mall and bought new shoes with my earnings.
They're awesome shoes. They're 43 dollar shoes that I got for 20.

so you used a Gel filled outdoor cable right?

It didn't have to be gel filled unless it was buried (assuming it's rated RT4.) Bell's aerial drop isn't gel filled either.

I agree as long as the jacket is UV rated then its OK no need for gel is its not buried . no comment on the rest ....

cat got your tongue? lol

plus I learned what the phone company charges for a line repair! I am definitely under cutting them!

and giving the customer just what he pays for ....

I love phone jobs! I just put a phone outlet into my dad's home so his satellite box can talk to direct tv. Luckily the kitchen was on the otherside of the wall and there was an existing jack there. First we moved his entertainment table and then I drilled into his wall. Then I enlarged the hole so that a phone jack would fit into it. The next thing was to take the existing wall plate off and run the glowrod up from the new hole. Luckily there was a stud up against the existing hole so I could just run the glow rod up against that to find the hole
The existing jack is one that has a coax outlet and a phone outlet so it was wired in with a network connector. As such I, unfortunately, had to cut the wire and beanie into it.

What more could I have given him? I give excellent customer service and I explain what I'm doing as I do it. I guess could have tried to fix his outlet but he wanted a new one and I didn't think of that until after I had already made a hole in his wall. (I kinda have a one track mind. At my dad's today I was chewing something when he asked me to help move his TV. Obediently I grabbed one side of the TV forgetting what was in my mouth.)

Ohhhh, I get it! That was an insult. Cut-rate prices = cut-rate service.

I have to say I disagree! I don't think I give cut-rate service.

Sound pretty sure of yourself. If you are THAT sure, get a real PRO to check your work. If HE says it looks professional, fine & dandy. If not, time to improve one's ability and attitude.

well I do know that after I was finished line two sounded clearer than the primary line.

plus after I realized that I shouldn't have attached the phone cable to the satellite lines I emailed him why that shouldn't have been done and offered to come fix it. He told me that this was the way he wanted it and not to worry about it.

...which proves absolutely nothing. Whatever existing noise there is on the other line may not have anything to do with the inside wiring. Just because the owner/boss said it was OK or the way he wanted it, does NOT make it right.

Freaking out?... THAT is a sign of a GH (GreenHorn)
Someone tell me this is just a joke! :confused:

Read and understand the NEC:

• 800.133 (A)Seperation from Other Cables.
• 800.24 Mechanical Execution of Work.

Using an existing cable to support another cable is not allowed!

Possibly also 110.3, 110.12, 110.13 too. And possibly my favorite one: 800.25.

Depending on jurisdiction, you may be considered an electrical contractor with various licensing requirements. You may have broken the law, even if it was done 100% correctly (according to code).

You almost certainly are responsible financially for anything that goes wrong (probably unlikely that anything will in this case that would result in a lawsuit, but not impossible; let's say you drilled through a power cable and burnt down the building - you would likely be responsible, which is why professionals doing this have insurance).

It's things like licensing, insurance, tools, and proper training that add cost to the rates of people doing this professionally - and increase their rates above those of someone who lacks a license, insurance, tools, and proper training. Personally, I'd want someone with all those things before I'd let them work on my most expensive possession (my house).

Jeesh fellas, its obvious this guy or kid is new to all this and is here for some help and guidance. Most of us have probably forgotten more than he knows, so what??? Instead of going down the slippery slope where this is heading why not try to help him learn how to do things correctly without putting him down??? Michael, if someone who does this kind of work for a living is offering you some advice, then how about just taking it for what its worth and not trying to argue about it? There's a lot of knowledge and experience here for you to take advantage of.

As I said: read and understand the NEC.

What I didn't mention was that the NEC CODE is the minimum standard requirement for electrical installation.

The concern I had was not that he did a favor for a relative for low cost - I think that was good, he probably learned some stuff, and his next job will be better. I'm not proud of anything I did at the start of my career, but I did learn from it, as I'm sure if he is willing to take criticism.

My concern was stating that he basically did the same job as a professional would have done, which is not true. If he did a "good enough" job, I'd probably agree (for a job like he described, sure - it's not that big of a deal; if he wired a high-rise that way, I'd have concerns).

I've always thought that it's okay to have ego or to lack full competence in a job, but it's not okay to have both. Until you do everything perfect, it's probably best to be willing to learn (I'd encourage him to post pictures of the job later if possible, prefacing it with "I'm sure I could do better next time - I'm looking for advice, not just people telling me it's wrong").

There is a thread just for that: Constructive Criticism

See? That's just how great you are!

I was only kidding when I said I couldn't handle criticism. I am so grateful for any help you guys can give me. My next job will be to run ethernet cable under my dad's house. He needed a network jack for his direct tv box; not a phone jack. Any pointers on wiring the cable? What the deal is: he had a network cable running into his computer room from when he was doing internet from a high powered wifi unit off of a mountain https://www.commspeed.net/). Now he is using dsl and so is going to use the commspeed cable to run an extension under his house to the wall his direct tv is up against. What I am afraid of is that the people who ran the commspeed cable didn't use any standard (T-568A/B) but istead just wired it without crossing any cables. What that will result in is that the side they wired is does not have crossed wires while my side will have crossed wires because the jack looks like this: https://www.mavromatic.com/2005/06/...d-phone-jack-using-a-single-cat5e-cable/
How should I punch the lines down if this is the case?

THanks for teaching me exactly WHY I shouldn't tie phone cable to other cables.

re-terminate the cable to whichever scheme you are using (a or b )

I just went to my dad's (he is in hawaii right now and they crossed wires so everything is up to standard.

well.... i wasn't really freaking out.... just wanted to get opinions on ways to do it. it isn't as if i've never had to go through insulation when i was working as a cable-guy.

I see cable trucks and dish satellite trucks zipping all over my area doing installs, and I know each and every one of those installers is not a licensed electrician, did not pull a permit for each install, and their work will not be inspected by the local government. So here you have massive violations of the licensing and permitting laws by major corporations, yet the local authorities are doing nothing about it.

I have been contacted by numerous satellite companies, and they provide ZERO training and field support to installers. You even have to provide your own cable and terminations at your expense. For this they offer less than cento scudi, no matter what is involved.

I have seen some pretty ugly cable installations. They just string the cable around the outside of the house, barely supported, and then drill thru an outside wall into the room where you want the outlet. I have seen this on million dollar houses, and it looks like crap. But the homeowners don't seem to care. I have even seen cables affixed to trees.

I googled it, I ran it through a translator, both with no response. What does 'cento scudi' mean? Likely it means that they don't pay what the job is worth but what do you want it to mean?

I know what you mean by 'ugly cable installations' that 'look like crap'. Down in Phoenix if it is an older house there is cable attaced to one corner of the housegoing to the outlet at an agle and cables that are sagging. Pretty gross stuff.

I know what you mean by 'ugly cable installations' that 'look like crap'. Down in Phoenix if it is an older house there is cable attached to one corner of the house going to the outlet at an angle and cables that are sagging. Pretty gross stuff. I went to a phone job where the customer had a cut phone line with one end laying on the ground. I was there because whenever it rained the phone wouldn't work. One of the tasks of the technician there is to fix the existing cable.... and you don't make any extra money for fixing it!

Says who? :shrug: I don't work for free and I doubt most of us are the same.

Cox said that. I wasn't making a general statement but rather how that particular cable company works.

What he means is that the cable and satellite companies pay very little for an install and it shows. cento scudi = cento centavos per cento.

yeah. that's what I thought and it is VERY true! not so much for cable companies but certainly most satellite companies. for these you are totally on your own. you have to take care of your own taxes, insurance, tools, and materials! I worked for both kinds of satellite companies.

My dada's direcTV DVR is now connected to the internet! I wired the jacks nicely if you ask me... but this time you don't just have to take my word for it.... I took pictures. Well, my dad took pictures and I have to wait for him to email them to me. Then you all can bask in the glory that is my work! Really I don't know which thread to put it in; pictures of good work or pictures of bad work. I know! I'll start a new thread... pictures of questionable work! Or constructive criticism.

Here are the pictures! Wait.... How do you add pictures?

phone work is nice..unless your dealing with a headache heritage building where things are screwed up and the "missing cable" syndrome

I remember doing my first "troubleshoot the phone" problem at my rental place in Seattle before I even did any telecom work. I was pretty astonished how messed up it was, and how I was able to figure it out. You will figure it out. If you are a INTP personality like me, you should learn it in no time.

BTW Metelcom,
Does that fiberglass rod REALLY flex at a 90 degree angle into the wall port without breaking?

Thanks