We made a major investment (for our little business, anyway) in a phone system (ESI IVX S-Class). Just months after it was paid off, and after the warranty had expired, the hard drive failed.

I've been a system admin for years, and was surprised when our ESI reseller informed me of the exceptionally high cost of replacing this little drive.

The drive is a Fujitsu 10GB laptop drive. I'm aware that it probably has been formatted with a proprietary system.

Consider this: When I purchased the system, I paid not only for the hardware, but also for a license to use the ESI software. When a hard drive fails, they charge you not only for the failed hardware, but also for the software which you've already paid for once.

This, in my opinion, is an immoral and outrageous practice designed to rip off consumers.

It would be like if, when your computer's hard drive fails, you also would have to pay full price for a brand new copy of Microsoft Windows, and Office, and any other software you lost when the drive failed. Obviously, that would be ridiculous when it comes to a PC.

Really, that's all these ESI systems are. A PC. Except they are a PC specifically built to ensure customer's have to return to them for very expensive upgrades and repairs on a regular basis.

Needless to say, we'll never purchase any system like this again. I'd rather spend every waking hour learning to manage an open-source system than spend one more minute with a dishonest company, trying to get me to PAY AGAIN for software I already purchased.

You might want to revisit this whole hard drive cost / software cost with your reseller or maybe get another price from another reseller.

When you get a new drive make sure you get the 5 year advanced replacement warranty.

ESI does not do business as you described.

LaneComm,

I appreciate your reply, and I'm open to trying that again.

I have hit serious brick walls with my reseller (hundreds to replace the drive, but they'd rather sell me a new system). Calling ESI directly results in a firm insistence that I deal directly with my reseller. I spoke with a different reseller, who quoted essentially the same hundreds of dollars for a replacement hard drive.

I'm so frustrated, and feel like we aren't being treated fairly.

We are ESI resellers and I understand you pain.

I would suggest you contact John Grider on the ESI board here - he may have a pocket full of them.

Its worth a shot, he's a good man.

I will send him a private message through the board. Thanks for the tip.

Private message received and thanks for the compliment Lane.

Hard drive on an S-Class is somewhat rare. You don't want to replace the hard drive anyway, you would be much better of with a flashcard which I think I have one.

Now as far as ESI business practices go I must comment. You might be a bit frustrated but it isn't ESI. They make good stuff at a fair price and I can post many examples to verify that.

I won't comment on the relationship between you and your ESI dealer. Not yet anyway.

So, gimme info.

Is your system down or just struggling?
How many extensions?
How many lines?

John if you don't have the Flash drive I think I have one for a S-class with voicemail .

I have one for the 56s G2 (if I can find it) but my instincts are telling me this is a 42s and I don't want to waste Josh's time by sending him the wrong item.

Note: Just purchasing a replacement drive only solves an immediate problem.

Thanks to all for the replies.

It's obvious that I've been frustrated today, and I don't mean to take it out on hard working folks, including our ESI dealer. I know everyone needs to pay their people, and deserves to be paid for their work, education, and expertise. Re-reading my previous posts makes me think I probably spoke to soon (needed time to calm down, I guess).

To answer your questions, John, the system is down. Our dealer has gotten us a temporary, smaller system that doesn't really support our larger phones (we switched to the small version of our phones) -- just to get by while we decide how to proceed from here. None of our features (voicemail, extension numbers, etc) are working correctly, but we can receive and make calls and I am thankful for that.

We have 4 outside lines, and 8 phone extensions.

I'm very open to your advice and input.

Josh, while I feel your frustration, you have mentioned that you will never purchase another system like this again. I'm assuming that by your mention of open architecture for your next purchase that you are implying that you'll recommend or purchase an IP system. That seems to be today's trend among IT personnel. Many of today's IP-based phone systems require annual licensing purchases or renewals, especially the big names.

Computers are one thing, but be honest: Do you truly understand phone lines and the manner in which they operate? Do you understand ring trip, high-resistance faults, loop current, etc? Do you honestly believe that your local dial tone provider is going to troubleshoot these things for you? I can assure you that they won't.

Now let me ask you a basic (and hopefully one that is not insulting) question: Why is it that IT people have no problem purchasing hardware and software that involves annual licensing when it comes to computers and programs? When a part in a phone system fails and requires what will likely be a one-time replacement for a few hundred bucks, they react as if they are being ripped-off?

By your own admission, you are the IT guy for your company. With that being said, you probably expect to pay for annual licensing fees, seat license fees, upgrade/patch fees, etc. for the programs that you are using. Why is it not acceptable to pay for what equates to the failure of a proprietary part? I know it is "just a drive", but have you thought about the R&D behind the product? I'm sure that ESI doesn't make it a practice to screw people by planting defective hard drives in their systems. You just happened to get a bad one, and to be honest, your gripe lies with Fujitsu for the mechanical failure.

Look, I'm not trying to throw you under the bus and I know that you've had a rotten experience, but try to look at this from a more realistic perspective. Yes, a drive is cheap, but ESI and their supporting dealers spend a lot of money to make the behind-the-scenes things happen. True, if an ESI system was in nearly every office like Microsoft, they probably could afford to give their products away. That just isn't the case and it isn't with any telephone system manufacturer. Dealers also need to be paid for their services to stock parts and maintain a trained staff. It isn't all about the $75.00 drive.

Please take a deep breath, accept my input as constructive criticism and realize that you really do have a good product. What you will spend will probably cost you the equivalent of one year's worth of car maintenance to restore your system. I seriously doubt that you'll be faced with doing this again.

Oh, and by the way: My company is not an ESI dealer, but they have an impeccable reputation in the industry.

Ed,

Your point is well-taken, Ed. I've overreacted here. And I definitely don't understand the intricacies related to telephone service.

Something about seeing that little Fujitsu drive, and knowing the value of the hardware was probably about $50 - $75 at most, really got to me. I certainly do not think that ESI intended for me to get a defective drive. Actually, the drive probably lasted longer than many other hard drives I've replaced in PC's. I'm not frustrated that the drive failed, only that replacing it requires a price in the upper hundreds of dollars.

I do feel like I've paid for the proprietary software already, I'm not asking for "upgraded" software -- I just want the identical software I had before, put onto a working physical drive. I really think I should be able to accomplish this in the low hundreds of dollars, rather than in the high hundreds I've been quoted.

For me as an IT guy -- I'm frustrated about how telephone systems are so secretive and proprietary. When something is wrong with the computer network, I can research, learn, and figure things out.

When it's the phone network, everything seems to be a secret.

That could be for good reason. I know that the tech's have training & experience that I don't. And I know I could really mess things up badly. But if we're willing to take that risk...is it really such a bad thing?

Sorry to ramble here. Thanks, Ed, I've heard your constructive criticism and understand that you've made some good points on this.

Josh, you are not wrong in venting your level of frustration. I wish there was an easier answer, but there just isn't one. With ESI's gravitation toward flash-based (solid state) drives, I'll say again that if you buy a replacement, it will be your last time.

If it helps you go at least get a bit of a chuckle out of this experience, I'm a phone guy with 25+ years of experience but I'm dumb as a stump when it comes to computers.

As for the "secrecy" thing, I will say that many of these perceived issues date back to the days when the phone company owned the systems and shame on you if you got caught trying to circumvent their regulated system. While today's manufacturers really don't subscribe to that way of doing business, the perception by the customers remains. If you review other posts in the ESI category over the past day or two, you will see that other end-users in your position are equally-frustrated. This is not limited to ESI systems.

If I started in sharing my experience with electronic components in cars that I've owned and had to replace, we would be here all night. I hope that my insight helped to soften the blow. That is all that I intended.

Hi, Josh....

to the BB. Yep, phone people are a real bunch, alright. As you've stated, you are the company IT guy so your boss thinks you can fix anything. WRONG!

With a year or so of daily work in the field of telephony, you would be an expert. Why? Computers and their networks are giant "party lines" in the telephone world. Telephone systems are totally different. Each brand "talks" a different language between the set and the service unit. Each set is a dedicated (think static IP) circuit. So each system, while similar, are totally different. Think of a Ford mechnic working on Dodges.

As for ESI, one of the finer systems, they also do a strong networked telephone system. This allows for the best of both worlds. Most major brands give you that option. The size of your system makes an IP system overkill.

Anyway, good luck to you, hope your "server" is fixed quickly and you can get back to normal.

Oh, and I've been doing this for over four decades....and Cisco still doesn't make a decent voice system.

:scratch:

Thanks Ken!

That's a pretty good explanation. With your example of a Ford Mechanic working on a Dodge -- I'm starting to wonder if it's actually more like a Ford Mechanic trying to work on a Jet Plane Engine.

:rofl:

:thumb: to Josh's local dealer for installing what appears to be a C-Class under emergency circumstances. I know of many phone guys that would not have done that in order to keep your back to the wall.

I shall return later today with official soap box.

That's true, John, they were willing to install the C-Class on a quick emergency response service call (they were at our office within an hour of our call to them). I give them props for that, and was very happy to pay for them for the emergency call and the temporary installation of that C-Class.

We invested (for us) a lot of money in that system, and it was tough to hear our dealer say that we should just buy a whole new system now, since repairing this one would cost so much anyway.

I'm basically asking: Is our dealer right about this? For those of you who are ESI dealers, is this what you'd recommend if we were your customer?

You guys have mentioned solid state drives -- an idea which sounds good to me. Our dealer did as well, but implied (though didn't state this outright) that we would have to purchase a different system to get an SSD. He never mentioned installing an SSD in our existing S-Class.

Keep in mind your reseller was buying that hard drive from ESI and was probably just marking it up a fair amount so they can make enough money to stay in business and be there within an hour when your phones are down.......you can't really blame ESI for using their own proprietary drives as they are then able to have a standard piece of equipment for their techs to support versus wondering whether there are any hardware issues.

A 42S is fairly old but with a new drive will last years....i wouldn't upgrade if it does everything you need.

I've never dealt with replacing hard drives with flash drives so i can't add to that.

Just to add a bit to the conversation, I've replaced a number of older HD's with Flash drives and they work great (and they don't typically crash). There is an adapter cable that goes from the motherboard to the flash drive, and away you go, new life for an old system!

Josh

In the beginning I didn't take the time to greet you properly since I detected a bit of haste in your situation. I'm glad you joined and presented your circumstances. The information I have is not just for you but for others with a similar problem.

On the subject of the component (hard drive or flash drive). Even though you describe it as something common only worth $50 to $75 your not judging it fairly. The value is in what it will do for you, not in what it cost to make. It kinda reminds me of the movie "Stroke of Genius". An inventor back in the early 60's created the intermitant wiper blade for Ford. He did it with common cheap parts available at any Radio Shack but it was the correct assembly that made it valuable.

I happen to have a Flash Drive for the 56s G2 system and if your system is a 56s G2 then it will work for you. If I were to quote a price to you it would be comparable to the local quotes you have already received. Based on wholesale costs and the ball park price you have provided I got to say your current ESI dealer is doing an excellent job of servicing your needs.

We say around here that equipment is only a small part of the equation and the more important is the service from the dealer and from what I'm reading you have a good one. By the way, I'm pretty well known for bustin down hard on any dealer that isn't on the up and up.

My advice is this: Call your dealer and ask him for a Flash Drive to replace the Hard Drive and let him do his/her job. They were there for you with the loaner and deserve your loyalty.

Hang around here and throw us your questions and we will give you a unbiased opinion.

Thanks to everyone for the input and advice, know that I appreciate your expertise and have re-thought my initial reactions to the cost issue.

I've called my dealer and they are researching the replacement of our failed hard drive with a flash drive.

I'll update when we're on the road to a resolution.

Personally, I've resolved to get to know our dealer better, and to spend some quality time with our ESI Administrator's Manual so that I will not be totally in the dark every time we have to make a minor change to something.

Glad to see the about face Josh........i think you will find that most of us here are just hard working stiffs trying to feed our kids.....and to the best of my knowledge none of us here are filthy rich from being telecom dealers!!

An update:

We've ordered the Flash Drive upgrade, which is going to be installed by our dealer by the end of the week.

For other IT folks, who may find themselves similarly situated and stumble upon this thread, I'll humbly offer my "lessons learned":

- Explain to your boss (preferably before you have phone system problems) that you're not a phone tech and that if the system goes down the most you'll be able to do is call the dealer.

- Consider whether a service contract with your dealer is an option for your business.

- Yes, as per my initial reactions, you could convert to an IP system and possibly manage much more of the system without outside intervention. Consider that move carefully. After I did, I realized that I don't have time to maintain and support such a significant increase in networked machines, routers, and bandwidth. Fact is, it would cost more in my time, equipment, and bandwidth than it would to just pay the dealer to maintain the phone system.

- Don't try to apply the traditional software license model to your phone system. If you do, smoke will pour from your ears just moments before your head explodes.

Thank you very much for the feedback, Josh. I hope that we weren't too hard upon you. I think that the end result that you obtain will be much more to your advantage in the long run.

It is unfortunate that more people aren't willing to step back and think twice before reacting. Please check back anytime for assistance in the future, although it doesn't sound as if you'll need it.