Let's discuss any issues or questions you have with placing basic adds, moves, and change orders with the LEC (local exchange carrier which is just another term for the service provider) since we have so many choices these days CLEC, ILEC, RBOC, etc. Tell me your procedures for placing these orders.

We get a LOA (letter of authorizaton) from the customer then call the business office, fax them the LOA and place the order.

-Hal

We tell the customer to place the order themselves. The telco's seem to screw up to much for us to have any part of it.

Yep, I am with Larry on that one. Years we spent dealing with Verizon's screw-ups, and of course since we ordered the service, we were the ones that looked bad. Oh and I might add, they enjoyed it when we looked bad right along with them in the eyes of the customer. Kind of like having a partner in crime.

No more ordering for the customers; they must do it themselves. We will help with answers to technical issues, but only through a conference call.

The customers need to know what a pain it is to deal with the telcos. It helps to make them appreciate what we do a lot more.

I'm with NFC.
If they want me to do it they have to pay for my "time on hold" and "time to get them to do it right" could double their cost, especially if verizon is involved.

If there's a way to screw it up, Verizon has a patent on it.

Mark

I should add that along with the LOA they have to sign a waiver that basically says WHEN Verizon screws up they can't hold us responsible.

We charge $110 per hour to sit at my desk and wait on hold and our normal service rates if we have to go to the site. I've had customers tell me afterwards they would be willing to pay twice that just so they don't have to deal with it. We will only do this with Verizon, if they have Bananna Republic Telecom they can do it themselves.

-Hal

Hal, you are more of a man than I am. I don't care how much the customer is willing to pay, Verizon always screws something up and somehow, we end up on the receiving end of the complaining. There's not enough time in the day to deal with them. Their ineffiency eventually trickles into your business like a cancer and drags it down.

We used to have two full-time COG people on staff just for telco orders. Almost $60K annualy in salaries plus benefits to do the customer's (and Verizon's) jobs. I like being everything to everyone, but not to that extent.

Until the general public realizes how bad things are in telcotown, nothing will change. An office manager needs to spend four hours on the phone with them and experience it for themselves. Then, their boss needs to have contacts that can bring this issue to light. Until there's a mass complaint about this issue, nothing will ever change.

Think about it; if your power is out, the power company doesn't argue with you about responsibility or make you wait. They fix it.

If your water or gas is out, it's pretty much the same. Even cable TV in most cases!

It's all about the quality of the employees that a service provider hires. When a company kicks out the quality help and replaces it with disposable help, we as customers and support people end up rambling.....

"t348h;ajkadifpxzuil;aka;dfa;!!!!!"

Well said! Anyhow we end up calling the telco to make them fix the problem or we all look bad. How many times have you told the customer he needs hunting and the customer said they ordered hunting and the lines don't hunt. I often think verizon really dosen't want to be in the phone business any more. Rarely they get things 100% correct the first time. If the customer uses another carrier other than verizon then forget it.

I agree that Verizon and SWB are the worst to work with and I hate to be "Stuck" on the phone with them. But I do not agree that the smaller LEC's (or CLECS or whatever else you want to call them) are all that bad. Now I am sure some are, but a few of the companies I work with seem to do a great job. I have emergency cell numbers of key people that do care about customer service. I get call backs and other people making sure my AMC where done correctly and in a timely manner. And for any outages, I can get a call back whenever I want it.

I tell customer what is needed and then will give them option of me calling. If I call its from customer site on their time, once services are ordered I'll conference customer in to confirm dates , services and prices. Request copy of work order to be sent to my FAX.

DNR:

I am in full agreement with you there about working with CLECs. We only choose (as in refer business to) one, which is XO Communications. They are really good about direct or cell numbers. Honestly, we only have to work with one number; the Rep we work with. He's available 24/7 and gets problems resolved quickly.

In the few instances where necessary, we have returned the favor by having a technician on-site to test LEC circuit failures in an effort to restore service. Cutting out one step of the troubleshooting process speeds service restoral along for a mutual customer.

Out comes the soap box........Sorry, folks:

DNR, on another note, you have never had to deal with Bell Atlantic (the real Verizon) who purcased GTE in your area. If you ever worked with Bell Atlantic, you would be cleaning pools for a living now, and happy to do so.

They are so inept, it's beyond comprehension. They implicate us when they get sued as being jointly-responsible for incorrect orders. They never succeed, but we still have had to pay to defend ourselves out of their frivilous "joint" legal actions since we placed the initial orders on the customer's behalf.

We actually were excited when Bell Atlantic and GTE merged; we looked forward to GTE people teaching these Bell people how to communicate with their customers.

Our first PRI cutover in former GTE territory that was handled by a former Bell Atlantic rep:

40 days past the due date with our equipment on the wall waiting for the circuit to be completed. Rep "forgot" to actually place the installation order.

Second (although in Bell Atlantic territory): A health care facility that has lost their PRI (100% outage) twice in sixty days. Both due to errors in order entry and records resulting in disconnects.

Give me back the local Bell Atlantic and GTE business offices any day. Now, we place orders with someone in CA, someone in TX confirms it, someone in VA is supposed to provision it, someone in NY actually does it, and when something goes wrong, they all deny any involvement after someone in FL investigates and determines that someone in AL messed up.

I thought the divestiture of AT&T in 1984 was intended to protect us from this stuff. Wasn't that the intent of Judge Greene's decree? Seems like SBC and Verizon are neck-in-neck to see who ends up buying Qwest and BellSouth now. Once they finish that battle, they will shake hands, merge, and then own ALL Bell territories, ALL GTE territories, ALL AT&T long distance networks, ALL MCI business and Lord knows how many brand name contracts.

Thank goodness that Sprint had the wallet available to pick up United Telepone System and Centel. I hate to think of what would happen had the "VZ" or SBC beat them to the punch.

Wasn't the whole intention of the Judge Greene's action to eliminate a nationwide monopoly in telecommunications? AT&T managed our nation's telecommunications network for 100 +/- years and did it well, yet that was determined to be a bad thing for consumers?

Now, 20 years later, it's not only OK to ressurect this monopoly, but to throw a few other names and categories into the mix. Let us not forget that while SBC gobbled up AT&T, Verizon swallowed MCI.

How many millions of dollars can you even fathom that AT&T and our government spent in an effort to result in "1984". What a waste of money. Our nation's telecommunications infrastructure monopoly is now back to exactly, if not more, than it was prior to the decree. Maybe David Bowie saw someting coming with his song.

We have the easy way. We tell the customer what they need, and once they have the order taker on the line, call us up and conference us on. No waiting on hold for hours for free, the customer is placing the order and we are there to give advice while the order is being placed. Why do anything else?

Ed, my friend, I guess you have never had to use Sprint. Sprint is our Verizon. They are THAT bad...

Amen on Sprint. They came from United, HQed in KC. Sprint was to be the deregualated long distance carrier then took over for all. They built their worls HQ in KC also. what a farce. Worked for United and as a contractor for Sprint --- twice. What a laugh.

And on -- and --- on --- and ----

Ed, here's your box.

KLD

Thank you all for the great info. I will give you some recommendations here since I didn't notice any of you mention record keeping. Each and every LEC we have worked with in the past has made errors and that is where we come in. The errors can be invisible to you and to the customer unless you know what to look for and then take the time to look for it.

We offer our services of ads, moves and changes to clients (really cheap enough for you to resell) and then we follow up on the orders to ensure they were placed correctly for the installers. So many times lately there is a facility shortage and key personell don't tell us until we call the day before the install is due. Of course we call a week in advance, then each day prior... but they hold off giving us that vital info (of no facilities) until the day before (if we're lucky).

Getting back on track what I want each of you to look into is how you keep records and how you follow up on them. Does anyone out there ever look at the order found on the bill after the install?

We find that lately eight out of ten orders placed correctly aren't fulfilled correctly. It may only be a billing error but that isn't helping your customers, is it?

When you cut off a phone line or circuit... How many of you dial the number to see if service is disconnected? Next...Do you check the bill to determine the fee was removed? Many times they continue billing eventhough service is removed.

Let me know what you do after placing the order as far as your follow up and record keeping.

More later...


Barbara Clements

Thought I would chime in on this one. I used to place orders for many of my customers but stopped many years ago for all the same reasons so far expressed. Many of my bread and butter customers have been taught, by me, to look at and closely monitor all their telco bills and all of them know how to file a complaint with our states PUC. LEC/CLEC will get better if more people would file complaints. All of them get fined and when those fines reach critical mass something will happen. You can have the soapbox back Ed.

I offer once a year to verify my customers telephone bills for free. Of course I do not know enough about taxes and fees, but I do check them for correct number of lines and features on lines. Luckly for me only about 10% of my customers take me up on it, because it can be time consuming. But on 90% of the ones i did I find something incorrect.

Here is the first tip regarding record keeping for you to give your clients (if you haven't already). First of all ask them to keep detailed accurate records. Request the name of the person taking their order and log the date and the time of the call (including the office the Rep. is located in).

How many of you (or your customers) have been on the phone with the phone company and suddenly they were disconnected?

Happens to us all the time but with detailed records it won't be as easy for them to get away with it... with detailed record keeping it is easier to call back and point a finger at who disconnected you ... also these records are needed to check the order placed (in case the order comes back incorrectly you will know who made the mistakes).

I like the fact that many of you are having your customers place their own service orders but please recommend to them to keep a log and keep acccurate records when they do place orders and keep them in a file or in the computer for backup.

It is always sad when we audit a companies bills and find errors that don't qualify for full refunds. I have an article about this on my website. There are many free articles I have written and one in particular may interest you. Three Reasons Why Your Company Should Consider a Telecom Audit. Paste this in your browser and read some interesting articles.
https://www.auditelinc.com/TelecomNews.aspx

Keep the great info coming...

We make predictive dialers for recovery and financial companies which means more often than not I need trunks from the CO instead of relying on the PBX to do call control.

I guess the secret to having provisioning done correctly is to become a master agent of the carriers.

Since I did that I don't spend time on hold, I have no mistakes when ordering circuits for customers, customers get the lowest loop and CPM available (I don't mark up and I take no commission so I can often give <1 cent on dedicated PRIs from Tier 1 carriers)

Before doing that it was a pain, mostly because customers are being sold on "voip" service to the CO, which is just marketing spin for an integrated T1 getting muxed out at the DMARC. The dialer fires up and starts dialing 1.5 calls per minute per channel. Its comical to hear CO techs cry when we've overloaded their class 5 switches.

I still have headaches when customers insist on having their in-house telcom people or the office manager get the services. It becomes a finger pointing game for a couple of days - verizon is worst.

Also, and one of my staff members and I have done what Barbara does in the early 90s so we do keep records and audit our customer's bills when they let us provide the services; just to make sure someone didn't enter the wrong thing on the order.


Just my two cents.

I actually prefer to place orders for my customers. I spend time with the customer first then I make the call from their location. One example of why I prefer to do it is: I just finished installing a nice system with multiple user mailboxes, AA and all other bells and whistles. I let the customer place the order for lines. In her communication with the providor she purchased Voice Mail for each line and also purchased the "Inhouse" wiring protection plan and didn't discuss any rollover or hunt group combinations.

My tip for placing orders:
Get a cup of coffee
Use speaker phone until you speak with a person
Have a list of your needs and check them off 1 by 1

I also consider it an assett to place orders via email...My Bellsouth contact is super at this

I guess I'm old fashioned..Too many cooks spoil the broth.

I agree but I also agree with some others about it being a PITA.

My reasoning is basically the same as Grider. Customers don't know what to order and the customer service reps will talk then into anything.

We have had customers that were moving within the same CO area. They order their lines to be installed at the new location and think they have done a great job because they made the due date two weeks before they are to move in.

Imagine their surprise when they have no phone service at the old location two weeks before they are to move.

-Hal

No wonder so many of you are so successful. Customer support really helps and following up on these orders is critical, but even with follow ups there are delays. Many of you mentioned that you take notes and I think that is terrific. Keeping accurate records will be necessary to determine if billing is accurate and that your customer received only what you ordered (or what they ordered).

I recommend keeping records for each time you talk with the LEC (Local exchange carrier) regarding anything for the customer. One important column would be the name of the Rep you are speaking with and their ID or location. How many of you have been on hold for what seems hours ... only to be disconnected? Identifying who placed your telecom orders will help you in more ways than one.

How many of you check the phone bill after you place an order?

I am a customer and not a technician and I can vouch for record keeping. I've been in my job for 13 years. Two years prior to my coming on the previous Telecom person cancelled some old circuits connecting two plants in town and put in a SBC T-1. A few years ago I wanted to know what was under the "Monthly Fees" charge and found those old circuits to still be billing. I dug back into old records and even found the memo to the president suggesting the T-1 along with the SBC order number to cancel the circuits (which was the golden nuget). I gathered everything up and went after SBC. After a 10 month battle SBC would only pay me back two years of wrongful billing. I went to the PSC. To make a long story short, the PSC not only made SBC pay our company for incorrect billing back to the statute of limitations (6 years) but they made SBC pay us back to the time of the T-1 install and the circuit order disconnect. I did not step a foot in court room to do this. I had and found great documentation. We received a SBC refund check for approximately $54,000.00. I got a bit of a pat on the back but what I loved was winning. I knew SBC was wrong and I could proved it and the PSC knew it.

We pay enough to dialtone companies to be paying for cancelled service, unpurchased service and a host of other charges they try to put on us and everyone else. Keep records - It works!

We spend time with our customer's. Find out what their business objectives are, do an audit of their bills, provide cost comparisons to see what type of solutions we can provide and if we can save them money or not. We clean up a lot of Verizon messes down here in Southern California. What our customers like is how quickly we respond and when we become their reps, they can call us directly at any times and not have to wait on hold for a customer service representative.

You totally understand the joy of success when you find telecom billing errors and fight to get the refunds that the clients are due. Great job and thank you for the wonderful post! Keeping records doesn't just make cents... it produces thousands of dollars to those who understand tariff and billing mistakes and can put that extra effort into it.

At my company Auditel Inc. www.auditelinc.com, we specialize in billing errors, tariff disputes, telecom expense reduction and recovery and consider it a challenge to educate the public on telecom billing errors and overcharges.

Thanks again for sharing this great info!

web page

Can anyone else share any of their dispute resolutions or tell us how keeping records has profited their clients, or reduced their bills?

Our problem with SBC in Chicago (now called ATT)- we faxed them a contract with particular long distance and international rates. Our next bill had much higher rates, I called and got credit for hundreds of dollars. Next bill, much higher rates again. They had to unenroll us and reenroll us. When they did that, the rates we initially signed for were no longer available and their computer system couldn't override the current rates. After 2 levels of supervisors, the rerated the calls to the original deal. The next month, much higher rates again. Then they said they couldn't rebill us because we had exercised our "rights" to 2 rebillings and there were none left. Even with a fax report showing we faxed back their contract months prior, they said they could only give us the current special rate which was slightly higher than we signed up for. The following month our local call rates were sky high, because the "new" long distance program we were now on did not include discounts on local service! THEN I RECEIVED A PHONE SURVEY ASKING IF THEY PROVIDED "Excellent Customer Service"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do I dare ask how you responded to the survey? This is just more of a brewing monopoly again. Fasten your seatbelts.

Ahhh yes, yet another smooth transition. :read:

File a complaint with the PUC. You have a binding contract. It's amazing how a complaint will get the attention of a lot of folks.

I have to agree with you Kyle, the PUC definitely brings attention to issues within carriers, All it usually takes is for the complaint to pass across an executives desk and well we all know what rolls down hill.

It just takes some hard work and determination. So I recommend rolling up your sleeves and digging deeper into the telecom and telephone bills to see what you can uncover. Keep accurate, detailed records. They pay off EVERY time.

Hello Barbara,

Do you have any locations in the Northeast. I have years of telecom experience and reviewing bills. I am currently employed with a telephone equipment provider and am very interested in your vertical. I know of one company out this way who acts as a consultant between the companies and the providers.

I am an agent for a few providers and we track everything via an internal database. We place all orders for customers, we track all orders, we manage install of orders, we verify the billing of the orders and we follow up on the bills quarterly. We keep notes in the system for all activity done on a customer so that any of our order entry gals can know what is happening if anyone calls in for service on their lines. Yes we handle all the tech support for the carrier, we act as your representative so you don't have to deal with them. We also don't charge a fee to yoru business. Basically we get a call from a business or a telephone installer and we look at your business, what you need voice and data wise and place the orders. You only deal with us, never have to deal with the phone company. Been in business 12 years so I guess we are doing something right