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Posted By: JohnnyBeGood Telco Rules - 12/03/08 04:02 PM
Hi guys,

This is such an informative board. It nice to be around so many smart people. I work primarily in IT, but recently I have a responsibility that has to do with telephone service.

The reason for my post is that I'm looking for information that has to do with the "rules" a multi-tenant building and telecom providers have to follow. For example, the building must provide access to telecom techs and space for wiring so that the tenant can get service from the telecom provider. The building has over 100 abandoned but tagged T1 circuits that the telecom provider has no interest in removing, unless the building pays the telco to do so. I think it is impossible for the telco to have a right to leave abandoned wiring and equipment indefinately. If I know the "law" I can talk intelligently with the telco representatives.

My location probably makes a difference, I'm located in San Antonio, TX.

If someone can shed some light on this matter or point me in the right direction, your effort would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

John
Posted By: Mark K. Re: Telco Rules - 12/03/08 08:31 PM
From my 25 year experience the provider has no responsibilty to remove existing wiring. They are only responsible to the demarcation point and can just terminate service from there office and not be required to remove anything for free.
Posted By: jeffmoss26 Re: Telco Rules - 12/03/08 10:13 PM
Let me ask you guys this...a customer of mine manages an office building. There is a phone room in the basement and then closets on each floor. Could they have me come in and remove all the abandoned wiring/lines even if technically there is no demarc present? The cable comes from the protectors, to house cable on 66 blocks throughout.
Posted By: jimmyv Re: Telco Rules - 12/04/08 03:39 AM
Jeff,

Just be careful, going back to the thread on insurance, if you knock out any current tenant’s service you could be liable for damages and lost revenue.
Posted By: MooreTel Re: Telco Rules - 12/04/08 04:57 AM
As jimmyv says, Jeff, some circuits may appear to be "Dead" when if fact they are special circuits. Best leave this to someone with more experience.
Posted By: Lightning horse Re: Telco Rules - 12/04/08 05:41 AM
Check me on this, but I thought that all cable installed in commercial buildings became part of the structure and therefore the building owner's cable. Which he can do with as he pleases, including but, not limited to, maintaining, or NOT maintaining. However, he can not remove, disable, damage, or otherwise mess with it as long as it is in use.
All of the above subject to any agreement made otherwise.
All that said, I have done as customers have requested during a move to new digs, and made the abandoned cable useless, AFTER telling the customer the rules as I understand them, and making him sign something saying he accepted responsibility for any costs involved with his request. John C.
Posted By: WRichey Re: Telco Rules - 12/04/08 06:03 AM
FOR THE ORIGIONAL POSTER:

John is correct, here in SA any inside plant beyond the NID or DMARC is property of the building or user of the circuit. In other words if a feed goes from a first floor NID to a third floor NID it is still telco. After that it's all you.

You can not remove or disable any "live circuit" it belongs to telco.

FOR JEFF.
There is always a NID, DMARC, MPO or what ever. Leave it alone. Please ask your questions in your own thread. It distracts from the OP and their questions.
Posted By: CnGRacin Re: Telco Rules - 12/04/08 11:51 AM
For a CIRCUIT the Telco’s responsibility ends with the NID or demarc. (aka smart-jack for specials.)

A multi tenant building like this, the Telco’s CABLE/WIRE ends at the MPOE and that can create a catch-22 so to speak when a demarc for a circuit is requested beyond the MPOE at time of installation.

Responsibility for wiring or existing infrastructure cable used to extend a CIRCUIT belongs to the Telco. Once a circuit has been disconnected the responsibility reverts back to the building owner and/or tenants as they have paid the installation charges to have it placed there.
Posted By: Lightning horse Re: Telco Rules - 12/04/08 04:33 PM
WWWaaayyy back when the 'unbundling' started, SWB would either sell in place cable, or pull it taut and cut off everything outside the conduit. That way the customer couldn't re-use the cable. We had a customer that 2 phones on a 1A2 system in a separate building about 50 feet from the main building. We sold them a 4-wire system and they didn't want to pay SWB's price for the cable in the conduit. SWB said all cable or no cable. So customer said "Get your cable out of my conduit." SWB balked, lawyers talked, agreement was reached that the cable to the remote building would be pulled out by SWB, and all other cable would be abandoned and short-cut. They had to use some kind of monster to get that 50pr out! I asked the SWB boss what he was going to do if he couldn't get it out. He said "No problem, we'll pull on it 'til the conduit comes out of the ground, if we have to. The cable will will take the strain." He was sucessful, AND thoughtful enough to suggest we tie a pull string to his cable! That cable had been in there at least 5 years and he said it was put in with lube that had a tendency to turn to glue, over time. I was impressed! John C.
Posted By: JohnnyBeGood Re: Telco Rules - 12/04/08 05:07 PM
Thanks for answering my question about abandoned cable/wiring.

I should have opened with the complete list of concerns. Here is a bit more background information and my other conerns.

Some additional background info:
This building is receiving service from the telco in a MDF room in the basement. This is where 6000 pairs come in from the outside and are terminated on the bottom part of wall. Above this, there are feeder cables/pairs that go up the riser to the riser closet on each floor. The MDF room is where cross connects are made between the pairs that come in from the outside to the feeder that travels up the riser. This was installed at the time the building was built. I assume this room is the MPOE. (I would NEVER remove the feeder cables from the MDF to each floor, just in case someone was wondering). Also in this room there are tall (4-7 feet) enclosed cabinets that have racks of T1 cards, DS3 cards and other equipment that were added in the past few years.

When the telco provides service to a tenant, I expect the telco to do their magic which comes from the outside, then cross connect in the MDF which runs up the riser, then run wiring from the feeder to a 66block or T1 equipment or phone jack which ends up being the demarc. Then run wiring from the demarc into the tenants space. The reality is sometime the demarc is in the MDF, sometime its in the riser closet, sometimes its in the tenant space.

So, as long as a telco customer is receiving service there is a demarc, but when service has been discontinued the demarc ceases to be a demark and the cabling can be removed up to the MPOE. I understand this to mean I could remove the wiring from the tenant space to the riser closet, remove the equipment/demarc from the riser closet, remove the wire from the equipment to the feeder and remove the cross connect from the MDF, leaving the feeder cable in place.

Concern regarding abandoned equipment:
In addition to the cable/wiring, there are many abandoned T1 cards in enclosures mounted on backboards in riser closets. I would guess about at least 25 enclosures with at least 50 T1 cards. Almost all of this is powered on and I estimate at least 50% is not in use. Would these become property of the building? No one really wants the equipment, I'll probably pile it up and give it to the next telco tech that comes.

Concern regarding AC/electricity/excessive space:
Lastly, the telco has more than a few cabintes in the building. It seems as if these cabinets have enough equipment to service other buildings. Combined, these consume a notable amount space, electricity and cooling that the building should get reimbursed for.
Should the telco pay rent for the amount of space and air conditioning the cabinets take?

I didnt mean to write a novel.

Thanks again,

John

[edited for typos and clarity]
Posted By: 5Etek-mike Re: Telco Rules - 12/04/08 06:19 PM
It sounds like this building used to be quite a busy place, and now it's only requiring a small fraction of the original service that was initially installed by the provider.

Quote
Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:
No one really wants the equipment, I'll probably pile it up and give it to the next telco tech that comes.
Regardless if this equipment (cards, etc) is currently in use or not, it's still the property of the LEC. I wouldn't touch any of it.

With live circuits already being provided thru at least some of this equipment, my suggestion would be to request that the LEC schedule and conduct an onsite survey of all their equipment and circuits, and provide a copy of it to you. Be onsite when they arrive, and discuss your important concerns with them. They should at least be able to turn off/disconnect local power to any of their unused, non service-impacting equipment.

It's a start.

BTW John, welcome
Posted By: Lightning horse Re: Telco Rules - 12/05/08 09:12 AM
Altho Mike is correct, in that in use or not, the equipment still belongs to the LEC, good luck getting it removed, circuits consolidated, etc. I think the deal here is that it costs the LEC more to recover, test, repair, and warehouse the equipment than it is worth. Especially since a lot of it is obsolete.
All that said, you will be trying to pull hen's teeth even getting them to formally abandon the equipment. It's one of those, "I cannot/willnot take resposibility for giving you that decision, and I don't know who can/will." Short version, CMA. It will probably be a lawyer/engineer team thing and a lloonngg drawn out proccess, that you will not live to see come to completion! Good Luck! frown John C.
Posted By: CnGRacin Re: Telco Rules - 12/05/08 11:06 AM
What Mike and John both have said about the abandon equipment is the truth… I belongs to the LEC and “should” not be messed with. (That’s my “official” answer) … That being said, here’s what I can tell you as a Telco guy about the various NID’s or smart jacks scattered about in the IDF’s and tenant spaces that are no longer in use… there ain’t NO ONE coming back for ‘em, EVER! … And they won’t be missed! If you choose to have a qualified wiring technician remove them no one would notice. Keep in mind though piling ‘em up at the MPOE isn’t hiding the evidence very well. :shhh:

Also keep in mind any equipment in the cabinets and or shelf’s within the MPOE, even if not in use may very well be used again on future circuit orders and may be inventoried by the Telco.
Posted By: jacktel Re: Telco Rules - 12/06/08 11:09 AM
I have pulled the plug on many many old systems,card banks and so on for various reasons including needing the wall space or just slowly cleaning out a closet for building owner. If I could not determine the use of a certain piece of eq. and building owner wanted it gone I would tag it and pull plug show owner and tell them to plug back in if needed. When you think about all the old eq. that was abandoned over the life of a building and never at least unplugged its amazing. I'm working on a project in NJ. where there were 6 Ksu's still plugged in and numerous alarm systems, old 1a2 transformers,channel banks etc. In the same building we have cleared over 500 pounds copper wire, mostly 50 pair that was just cut and left on ceiling tiles. We only removed the wire that was laying on tiles where we were working. This building is only 38 years old. John
Posted By: JohnnyBeGood Re: Telco Rules - 12/06/08 02:52 PM
This is a picture of one of many rooms that need help. This has a lot of network/voice stuff but only a few pieces of telco equipment. Other rooms have lots more telco pieces and less newtorking/voice stuff.

[Linked Image from alamosolutionsresource.com]

At some point in time, all this will be demolished. As far as the telco is concerned, I just need to know what to do with the equipment in the upper right hand corner or just not ask any questions after the demo people do what they do.

The rooms like this were once occupied by call centers.

I appreciate all the reponses that have to do with abandoned cable and equipment, but is there anything written in black and white?

What is the rule that determines the best location for a the demarc? As mentioned ealier sometimes its in the MPOE, sometimes the riser closet and sometimes in the tenants office.

5Etek-mike:
Thanks, I am in the process of trying to get an onsite visit/survey. Lets see if I can get them to actually show up, or if they will expect me to pay for the survey.

Lightninghorse:
I've so far contacted three people from the telco. The reponse I received from the Network Engineer is "I'm only responsible for service being available at the building; talk to Installation about what is there."

Now there are two supervisors responsible for installation, one for special ciruits and one for POTS. I do not have an issue with POTS. I'm trying to get the special circuits guy in.

I think you are right about needing a lawyer/engineer team. I just need to see if the client is willing to pay for a lawyer. If all this turns out favorably and I do not need a lawyer, I'll buy everyone a beer!

CnGRacin:
I'm working with a non telco tech that has 20+ years experience. I would not do this work myself.

While cleaning the riser, a cable fell from an upper floor. This cable terminates in one of the blue cabinets. I'll tell you how the telco tech reponds when they see 200 feet of cable piled on top of the cabinet. When they ask how it got there, I'll have to say "I don't know." Really, I wasn't messing with it, it fell to the floor I was on. It would suck if it fell on someone in the basement.

Jacktel:
I'm at over 500 pounds of abandoned cable in the lower third of the building. Most has been a voice cable and ethernet and a little coax. I suspect there will be much less abandoned cable in the upper floors.

Thanks again,

John
Posted By: Lightning horse Re: Telco Rules - 12/06/08 05:02 PM
From the picture, it would appear that somebody cared about their work. Of course I'll bet you've other examples that appear to be multiple spider webs trying to occupy the same space. smile John C.
Posted By: hbiss Re: Telco Rules - 12/06/08 05:41 PM
At some point in time, all this will be demolished.

I don't think you mentioned that before. Tell the telco that you will be renovating the space and you need them to remove/relocate anything that belongs to them in the space. Give them a reasonable deadline before demo starts.

Expect to be charged for this.

-Hal
Posted By: 5Etek-mike Re: Telco Rules - 12/07/08 05:47 AM
Quote
Originally posted by JohnnyBeGood:
I appreciate all the reponses that have to do with abandoned cable and equipment, but is there anything written in black and white?
Before researching various regulations, one important word of advice: Proceed with caution (leave the legal stuff to the attorneys and clients). If you're researching the various regulations for your own familiarization, it's best to start with your local and state regulations for utility services, etc.

Regarding the federal regulations for ILEC owned equipment/property, research FCC Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Title 47 (Telecommunications), Part 51 (Interconnection). Scroll down and click on section 51.323, and see if what you're looking for is somewhere between pages 40 thru 44.

Do what Hal recommended.
Posted By: JohnnyBeGood Re: Telco Rules - 12/08/08 03:32 PM
Mike,

Thanks for the direction. It seems as if the FCC rules govern ILEC and CLECs, and the rules of sharing space/equipment between the two. I've not found the specific part that has to do with a building owner/tenant and the ILEC, but I'll continue to search the FCC info.

I did, however; find the rules that govern the service provider, building and tenant relationship for Texas:

Below is a link (for Texas):
https://www.puc.state.tx.us/telecomm/index.cfm

I saw something for California, while searching for PUC. Basically I think someone can just search for the Public Utility Commission for thier state to find pertinent rules.

The part that has to do with the telco, building and tenant can be found in:
CHAPTER 26. SUBSTANTIVE RULES APPLICABLE TO TELECOMMUNICATIONS
SERVICE PROVIDERS
Subchapter F. REGULATION OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS SERVICE
§26.129. Standards for Access to Provide Telecommunications Services at Tenant Request.

I thought this part was interesting:

Quote
(3) Notice of intent to install telecommunications equipment.
(A) Upon receiving a request for telecommunications services from a tenant, the requesting carrier
shall notify the property owner not fewer than 30 calendar days before the proposed date on
which installation of telecommunications equipment needed to provide the telecommunications
services requested by a tenant is to commence.
(B) Such notice shall be sent by certified mail, return receipt requested, to the property's on-site
manager, or designee, and to the person identified in the tenant's lease to receive notices.
(C) The requesting carrier shall include, but is not limited to, the following in its notice of intent:
(i) the identity of the requesting tenant;
(ii) the property address and building number (if applicable);
(iii) the proposed timeline for the installation of telecommunications equipment;
(iv) the type of telecommunications equipment to be installed;
(v) the proposed location, space requirements, proposed engineering drawings, and other
specifications of the telecommunications equipment;
(vi) the conduit requirements, if any; and
(vii) a copy of PURA §§54.259, 54.260, and 54.261 and this section (Substantive Rule
§26.129).
(D) The requesting carrier and the property owner may agree, in writing, to extend the timelines
prescribed by this subsection.
I bet telco techs are totally unaware of this. Enforcing it will only slow down an install and make a tenant unhappy. But there is much more in there that is relevant to my situation.

It is understood that someone has to pay to have thier service setup, but many dont think about what should happen when service is no longer required. The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) is reponsible for the National Electical Code which also governs the responsibility of buildings which has a clause that states the building MUST remove abandoned cable.

It is up to the building to have an agreement with the tenant to pay for the removal of the wiring and equipment when the tenant leaves.

The building has to have an agreement with the telco to pay for space if substantial equipment is necessary to provide service to the tenant.

Now untangling the existing mess is going to take some work. (I'm looking for those hen's teeth I need to pull).

Thanks everyone for all your feedback.
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