Hey all -

Recently I bought a lot of mixed K4XX cards https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150265249811&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=005 - one of which is a K410A paging card. In the 601A docs I have, it instructs me to strap the card according to the instructions that came with it.

I probably don't need to tell 'ya there aren't any. Can anyone PM me with a link to the spec sheet for a K410?

One other question: After this, I'll have an interupter, 3 line cards (one of which is unused), a SAN/BAR MOH card, and an external melco intercom, and possibly will be moving away from the melco back to the intercom card that goes in the last slot of the KSU (And that should be .... fun. Actually if I recall, it was what got me introduced to y'all in the first place). Basically every slot will be filled, and the lot also included an add on card cage if I need it (not planning on using it).

Am I in any danger of overloading the power supply?

Thanks
Matt

I don't know, I had very little experience with the 601s. If it looks like you are starting to have a problem, the next-next project could be to replace the internal power supply with a larger external one (2012B sound right? Someone correct me please)

Sam

No, the power supply is designed to support a fully-equipped system.

As for the 401A card, there really isn't any strapping to speak of except to connect AG and AB to pins 3 and 18 of the appropriate slot. Then, you just cross-connect T/R/A/LG and L to the appropriate line button from that slot's output.

Matt,

NO , but, well, depends on a few things. The internal ICM ringing may be the culprit IF you have a lot of sets.

There is no outside, larger power card for the ITT 601 that I am aware of. The original is a plug in card. Now, all that being said, if you had a 2012 power source, and the 601 docs, it ain't clean but you can strap more power in the back of the set. You can also strap another card slot in the back...but that is another day.

....and the additional card slots (external) were a 239?, if I remember correctly (or was it 259?).

Have a good week.

Thanks Guys!

Ed - the 601A Manual says - (pp. 34, sec 11.09) -

Refer to the instruction sheet packed with the 410A KTU and strap the KTU for Option W. If 18VAC is used for intercom signalling (I use 10v) strap the KTU for Option V. If 105 VAC is used for intercom signalling, strap the ktu for option U.

Looking at the card, there are 2 sets of jumpers, each with 2 possible positions.... I suppose that since I'm using the lowest voltage for signalling, and there are only 4 combinations of the 2 jumpers, I could "experiment". But that kinda scares me.

Also I noticed you said "401A" - did you mean 410A?

Anyway, it looks like I'll definately be going back to to trying to get the 401B KTU intercom card working, It seems to be integral to paging since I access paging by an intercom key. Either that or I guess a lot more strapping between the 66 blocks and the KSU, which I don't want to do. I like the Melco, but I like the thought of everything being in one box a bit more.

Funny this - I've got a phone every 10 feet, intercom, and paging.... and I live alone.

lol. I think I could find a lot worse ways to spend my time and money though.

Thanks for the power supply info Ken/Sam... I think if worst came to worst, I could probably beef up the existing one if I had to, it's a pretty straigtforward circuit... and I'm guessing the xformer could probably deal with the extra load... if only I could get a clear schematic for it. But I'm not overly worried, I think as Ed said, the PS was built to handle all this stuff. But I'm having serious second thoughts about shipping my spare off to Levi. Oh - one more thing, I get to build my own preamp circuit that goes between the KSU and the audio amp.... woo hoo!

First step in all this is to get the 401B working.

You all have a good week as well, I know I'm going to!!!

Guys -

A couple of comments:

1) I believe the 410 (FOUR TEN) card was a Public Address Access card. You would assign an Intercom station to it and when you dialed that number the signalling burst (either 10v/18v or 105V) tripped the relay and gave you access to a PA system. There were contacts to mute music etc.

I don't think I have prints for it, but I'll look.

2) As I said in an earlier post you could beef up or replace the existing power supply with an external unit. They're for sale on ebay pretty regularly, but they're heavy - high shipping costs. Maybe someone on the board has one they want to get rid of. Personally I wouldn't change it unless I started having trouble. They built a lot of excess capacity into that old 1A2 stuff.

3) Ken, I don't think there was a 239, but there were 359 & 259 card cages. As I recall, the 359 was a single card unit and the 259 was a 2 card unit. They were designed to handle 20 pin cards (like the 414 manual ringdown etc..)that wouldn't fit in a standard 18 pin slot. They were also cheaper then adding a new 584 panel if you ran out of slots.

Someone please correct any errors. It's amazing how much I used to remember and how little I remember now.


Sam

Thanks Sam!

You're exactly correct about the 410.

Step 1 is done, the C19 intercom is pulled. The backboard sure is getting sparse, what with pulling the valcom tuner in favor of a SAN/BAR card, and now the removal of the C19.... just the KSU and the 66 blocks are left.

Looks cleaner, but not as complex. But it does shift the focal point the 66 block cross connects, and of course the work Ken did to route the 25 pair cables in a perfect arc.

Ed, one way or another, we're going to get the intercom card you shipped me, or the one I had working..... so ... everyone ... hold on for the ride (pretty please)?

Sorry, Matt. I did mean the 401. Dyslexia must be kicking in on me. Sam, you are correct about the expansion panels (359 and 259). Matt, don't forget that these require a mounting frame. They can't just be mounted to the wall; they were designed for rack mounting only.

Oh, and the 2012B is just a wall wart transformer for dial lights or other misc. 6-8 volt AC needs. Regardless, due to the modular design of the 601 KSU, it would be very difficult to connect an external power supply to it.

Looks like the dyslexia is hanging around for a spell, Ed.

Here's where we are at:

I took an old amp. connector and made all connections straight to the KSU.

The good news:

1. The talk path is completely clean, which I seem to remember was a problem in the last iteration of this excercise.

2. The IC (line 5) light lights!

The somewhat good news:

1. I can hear the relays click with each button press.

The bad news: I was only able to get a buzzer to work on signal pin 0, and then only about every 8 pushes of "0".

The bizzare news: I tried random signal out pins (0 (worked occasionally), 3, 4 and 9). No buzz. But, hooking a voltmeter between AG and the signal pin consistently displayed around 11vac. The bizzare thing: It stayed at that voltage till I pressed another key. Maybe the card needs the buzzer to drain down a capacitor or something, just guessing.

So, I've got my voltage, but it apparently doesn't have enough amperage to buzz the buzzer. Is there even a remote chance that ITT required a special, low current buzzer with this card?

Open to any and all ideas...

Thx
Matt

No, the buzzers are all the same. The intercom card is nothing but a matrix of relay contacts and it sounds as if one of them is pitted. All it takes is one to mess up the matrix. Unfortunately, those relays are nearly inaccessible, so cleaning the contacts probably won't be an option.

Hmm here's a bit more info:

Pg 5, section 2.08, (e): The intercom is accessed by dialing a 2 digit intercom number.

I don't know if the first number would be 0 or 1. So I figured I'd try both. Some signal pins don't buzz at all, no matter what I do. Others (so far 0, 5, 7 and 9 will buzz). But here's the deal.

I press 0, then the station number 4 times. Works every time on the 4th push, on the pins I listed. I know this thing doesn't support 9,999 stations, but perhaps the KSU is configured for 20?

Off to do some more reading.

Sorry Ed, didn't see your post.... that could be it as well.. I hope not, but I've looked these relays up before and they are still made. I wonder if maybe popping the cover off and giving them a good spraydown with some contact cleaner would do the trick.....

Ed -

You're right. The 2012B was a little wall wart. I was thinking of the Big rack/wall mount power supply that supplied A & B Battery, 10V, 18V, & Ring Generator. There were a bunch of iterations of it depending on how much amperage, which voltages etc. But Old-Timers syndrome is creeping in and I can't remember anything anymore.

Sam

I was going to suggest that, since actually getting to the contacts themselves might be a bit tough. Those relays are packed pretty tightly on the card for sure.

Sam, my preference for an external power supply would be the Elgin EAK-6 or a Western Electric 79B5. The WECO unit included an interrupter, so it provided all of the needed voltages, plus lamp flash, lamp wink and interrupted ringing. Regardless, is still would be a major undertaking to backfeed a 601 KSU with one of these. I think that if I reached that point, I'd just put in a 620A panel for line cards and a 641A for intercom and be done with it.

Matt, if you are starting to add stuff to the 601, it's probably time to go to a 501 cabinet. And the EAK-6 power supply that Ed mentioned. The 601 power supply doesn't have any 'spare' power for running more stuff. And mounting an expansion rack is going to be problematic, at best. This thing is going to look like Johnny Cash's Cadillac, but won't run near as well! John C. (Not Garand)

"I'd just put in a 620A panel for line cards and a 641A for intercom and be done with it."

How about an old fashioned ITT/SC/WE 501? The floor mount unit was pretty big, but the wall mount unit wasn't bad.

Six card slots, a full sized power supply, a real interruptor and room for an intercom (unless you wanted a 207).

Sam

..... now come on guys!!!!

Ya got some extras to send me?

Actually, if I were to change the KSU out, I'd go with whatver the WE equivelant is. I just like thier stuff better, I don't know why.

Anyway, latest on the intercom.

Use with a rotary - buzzer goes every time.

Use with a touch tone - you have several options:

1. Press one, then the number you are trying to bzzzzz twice.

2. Press any other number, then the number you are trying to bzzzzzzzzz 3 times.

3. Press the number you are trying to bzzzzzzz 4 times.

Pretty consistent.

Rotaries work great... DTMF... not so much. I'm about to try a different deskset, not sure I trust the keypad on the one I was using.

But I think it's a case of the daughterboard not being very clever.

Or, as I like to call it:

Dual
Tone
Misunderstanding
Fill in your favorite adjective here

Sounds like a bad touch-tone adapter card on the intercom card to me. Make sure that all of the pins are properly-aligned between the main card and the piggyback card.

I'm pretty sure that I have the full compliment of WECO panels and power supply if you are serious.

Problem is, you won't have the luxury of the MOH slot, which would require yet another panel (641A). Sorry, I mentioned that 641 was for intercom; it is the 642A). While these panels might look more "impressive", they take up a lot more room than you have to spare. Let's stick with the 601.

Ed -

Yep, I agree. Plus unless one of you guys can get me on somewhere as a 1A2 repairman.... well.. man, I'm just starting to become competent with the 601, and it's been over a year.

Also, the pins are in alignment - one other thing, I don't know if you remember, but I originally had this card with my KSU. We couldn't get it to work so I got one off you.

The adapter card from mine does the same as yours, on your main card.

I must have touched my old "main" intercom card too many times, cause it's just plain old dead.

So I don't know if it's the adapter card, or the main card..... but I suspect I have 2 bad adapter cards, since it works peachy keen with rotary.

Dunno where to go from here, but it sorta looks like back to C19 land....

OK, so the C-19 is in the process of being reinstalled (which it needed anyway, don't know what I was thinking when I put it in.... like Ken told me when he was here, there is a system for wiring up these 25 pair cables/devices. Apparently I hadn't yet "go it" when I put in the intercom.

Anyway, a question. I'm guessing the paging card looks to the signal pins on the KSU for it's cue to activate. If I backfed 1 sig terminal from the C-19, is it possile this would work, or would I be inviting disaster? I'm guessing without the intercom card in the KSU, the sig terminals aren't hooked to anything... but I thought I'd throw the question out anyway.

Thanks
Matt

Matt -

If I understand you correctly, that is exactly what you want to do. The 410PA card doesn't care whether it gets a burst of signal from the 601s Icm or the C19 or from......anything else. As I recall (and it's been a real long time [30+ years]) It recognizes the signal and throws the ICM T&R onto the PA system input (muting the bgm too).

Recognize that the glory & perfection of 1A2 was its interoperability. I often installed complete systems that had 6 different manufacturers (KSU from ITT, Intercom from Teltone, Cards from AE, Phones from SC, etc....) There were some notable exceptions but for the most part it all Just Worked.

Sam

Very cool Sam - just to be clear so I'm sure you understand what I want to do - run a lead from one of the C-19's signal outputs over to one of the SIG 0-9 on the KSU. The ground will/should already be common between the C-19 and the KSU.

Thanks!
Matt

Matt -

NO!

You would run a signal lead from the C-19 to the control lead on the 410 PA. You want to control the card with the DICM. Now where is that lead?

This is where we need the schematic for a 410 PA. We could guess. I would try the A Lead first & if that doesn't work, then the RC lead.

Anyone have a schematic for a 410 PA?

Sam

Thanks Sam!

I think we're in luck. I still need the schematic cause the jumpers on the 410 scare me, but, here is some text from the 601 manual:

11.03 Determine the line card posiiton to be used and connect COT and COR of that line posiiton to the amplifier inputs.

11.04 Determine the intercom number to be used for voice paging and connect the corresponding SIG terminal on row 40 or 41 to the RC terminal of the line position used.

11.05 Connect any T Terminal of the line position used to any intercom T Terminal on row 42 or 44.

11.06 Connect any R terminal of the line position used to row 30, terminal 6, and connect row 31, terminal 6 to any intercom R terminal on row 43 or 45.

11.07 Connect any A terminal of the line position used to any terminal 6 of rows 1 through 10.

11.08 Connect the AG terminal to the RG terminal of the line position used.



So, it looks like I'll run the signal from the C-19 to the RC terminal for line 3 (That's the slot I think I'll be using), just as you guessed!

It's 11.05 and 11.06 that concern me, since I won't be using the built in T&R for intercom use - They'll be supplied by the C-19. Would I simply connect the T&R from the line card position to the T&R of the C-19?

Thanks
Matt