It doesn't take a Telecom Genius to figure out why many employers are hesitant to lend a hand in this matter. Nor is it proper to, "push the subject". I've been asking for 8 years now. Now I'll pose the question to you.
What are the pre-requisites for the TDA? Cost? I've been watching this and other forums for a while now, and I gather many of you are business owners. How many of you send your techs to be certified? Do you pay for it? Are you distributing the software to your employees? Is it unusual to send an employee out for certification? PM or EM answers are very welcome. TIA

Tapping fingers....
Found this helpful source, https://www.boettchersupply.com/_Files/TDAClassDescription504.pdf
Have met a few of the REPS here in my region, and have the Orange County number, was hoping to get a quick answer on price and pre-reqs. Thanks.

Most larger manufacturers require certification to sell the bigger higher profit systems. We certify techs on all systems and as an owner I get certified myself. Keeps you from being held hostage by employees. Have the employee sign a noncompete (if enforcable) and an agreement to stay in your employ at least one year. Anyone leaving sooner than that could be liable for training reimbursement. Software is put on company laptops so that is not an issue. The certification is what distinguishes your company from trunkers.

If your company is big enough in certain product lines the training is free or very low cost. In the past when I wanted to get certified and my employer was dragging his heels I would find a way to research and learn on my own and show initiative. Many times employers won't have you certified because they expect you will want more money and why should they pay to have you certified and possibly pay you more when you can do the work well, you just don't have a piece of paper for it. It is flawed logic but it happens. Plus many employers don't want to work with a non-compete because they can be hard and costly to enforce, and don't want to train an employee for a competitors' benefit.

As to the no compete, having an employee sign on and the enforcement are two seperate issues. While you may not pursue enforement, it still may prevent an employee from direct competition. As to certification, without it you may no get manufacturer's technical support. This in and of itself could result in longer resolution of problems, that you may have to eat the cost of.

Panasonic is looking to have all TDA main units,
systems, CPUs or whatever you want to call them
initially protected by the serial #.
Only certified dealers will have access to enter
the serial # and receive a password that will allow initial entry into the programming.
I believe this is partly in place now but I am not certain.
My TDA classes are scheduled for the end of April.
As a prerequisite you will need a TD certification and there is a short test.
You must have an active business with a dedicated fax line and some sort of high speed internet access.
All training classes should be set up through your local Rep.
Cost is $500.00 per individual.

[This message has been edited by MrGemini (edited February 16, 2005).]

and in the middle of the class they will tell you " Oh by the way, the Account Codes don't work and there is still no call coverage keys on this super high end system." And we just paid $500 for this???? And no soft key intergration with the V Mail, all stuff that cheap low end systems have??

[This message has been edited by brokeda (edited February 16, 2005).]

"As a prerequisite you will need a TD certification and there is a short test."

That isnt entirely true. I went to TDA School in January and I was under the assumption I could go because I was TD Certified but I was one of maybe 4 in a class of 14 that had the TD Certification. There were alot of computer techs that had never even seen a TD.

Louie, I can only tell you what my Rep. told me.
I did know that they will have classes for those who have no TD Certs. but I was told they do not mix the classes and that the cost was increased to $800.00.
But, apparently as you say, they did mix yours.
So I guess they can do what ever they want.

They dropped the TD requirement a number of months ago. There is no TD training anymore anyway.

Charles

Only problem I have had with this (and correct me if I'm wrong)is that you have to be a dealer or be employed by one to become certified.

Looks like some installers might want to take it upon themselves to become certified either because their employer won't cooperate or they chose not to become a dealer usually because of product sales commitments.

-Hal

There is no TD training anymore anyway.

Does that mean that distributors can now sell the TD systems to anybody??

-Hal

They have been selleing TD systems to GOD and his brother since 95.

The TD systems are still available for a while longer.
The TD training did stop a while ago.
I don't know of anywhere execpt on the intrnet that you can buy a TD unit without certification.

This is the problem I have with Panasonic. Many years ago we sold a lot of 61610's and then the 624's. We would have liked to have moved up to the TD but I'll be damned if I was going to pay all that money to have our guys certified then have it taken away because we didn't meet their product commitment.

I will never understand why a company would operate this way. I can understand that their reason would be to maintain standards but apparently they don't need to make any money. Maybe that's what happens when you are a small part of a giant corporation, and maybe that's why there are so few Panasonic dealers.

They need to cut the elitest crap, their equipment isn't any better than any other in it class.

-Hal

I am a contractor in Ireland, When the tda came out here I had to pay for this myself 400 euro quite cheep I thought for the cert
Most of the other people on the course were employers they went for training themselves & then they train there staff & use their cert to commission that way no problem with staff leavening course price now gone up to 1000 euro ............

Right, I can remember when it was $75 here. What's it now, 10 times that?

-Hal

The lowest I've ever seen the TD class was $300.00 and that was back in 94 when they came out.
You don't have to send all of your Techs. and I have never heard of anyone loosing their Cert. for not selling enough systems.
It's actually quite reasonable. all of the major players charge for training. Your nortell and some of the Avaya systems are up into the thousands.
If you like the systems then you get certified.
If you don't like them, don't sell them.
It's that simple.
If you serious about your business then you should realize that part of your overhead is for training and certification.

If you serious about your business then you should realize that part of your overhead is for training and certification.

Absolutely, I'm not complaining. As I remember the $75 cost was from way back even before the TD.

It's not that I don't like the systems, just that Panasonic makes you jump through hoops to do business with them and that's what turns me off.

Around here at least you can find someone selling 624's to anyone who walks through the door on almost every street corner. When I see a 624 install I can be certain it was done by a hack. On the other hand installers like myself who have been in the business for years can't buy a TD or TDA for the occasional customer who prefers it.

-Hal

If it was before the TD then the fee was to an independent dealer or vender who was simply conducting a "training class" There were no Panasonic ran certification classes before the TD systems wih the exception of the actual
KXT 336 PBX.
The very reason that most of the KXTA 624 systems you see that look like crap is because anyone can buy them as well as the fact that these are very often sold as "plug & play" over the internet.
If you feel you know the TD systems well enough to sell and service them but don't want to get certified, (as you can't now anyway)
you could have always bought them from an internet dealer and resold them.
Granted, the prices are not as low as you would get from a vendor but if your only concerned with one or two a year that would have been the way to go.
I and many other certified dealers never felt that the TD systems should have been sold over the internet but Panasonic opted to go for the sales and as long as these internet companies offered Tech. support they let it go.
It's all a mute point now as the TD isn't for long and may be gone by the end of the year.
Hal, you have to remember, as long as there are customers who shop solely by price there will always be hacks and trunk slammers to accomodate them.
When I 1st started I would cringe at having to clean up wiring or straighten out programming after a hack or a slammer but now I look at as another way to pay the bills.
The customer is amazed to see what the install should have looked like in the 1st place whether it's a small 3X8 on a backboard or a 200 or 300 port system in a rack.
Some customers just learn the hard way.

MrGemini is only too right. Am I a hack or slammer ---- I installed 43 624s last year and I have a picture of every one of them with the owner standing beside the backboard --- SMILING!!!!!! And, yes, I have always made more money off of installs I had to straighten up than what I made off my own sales. Internet sales for Northern Telcom is a real money maker for me. I see more of them than anyone elses. The other is the KC gangs of "Certified Dealers" selling whatever the latest thing (meaning cheapest) is this week then can't be found to stand behind it. I've been here in the trade almost forty years (less 4 in CA) and have run my own company for twenty two. So this market doesn't bear 1000 set systems, but it sure makes a nice place to live and still pay the bills. Give me More 624s.

KLD that's great. Sounds like you are doing good installs and keeping your customers happy.

My point about the 624's is that they are at one end of the spectrun compared to the other Panasonic products, I fully expect to see them sold at Home Depot if they are not already.

The very reason that most of the KXTA 624 systems you see that look like crap is because anyone can buy them as well as the fact that these are very often sold as "plug & play" over the internet.

You are so correct. It may be like throwing a deck chair off the Queen Mary but I will never do business with any of those internet companies that will sell to my customers at the same price I pay. They are the competition, they cut into all of our profits and I will not support them.

-Hal

Thanx, Hal. I bid a system for a company and they bought a NT over the internet, then they called me for the install!!!! Time and material. They weren't sold the right things so there was a lot of time and material. Another bid (to a lawyer) went to an internet NT. They still did't have the VM working. I wouldn't service it until the seller's warranty was up. Time and material to straighten it up. Birch has dumped a lot of NT around here. Guess what?---- I'm still straightening them up. Mostly lawyer offices.
And you're right about commitments and sales quotas ---- If I were in your area I could produce those numbers --- not here.

And Panasonic is not the only one playing that game. I know the frustration. I have been in the industry long enough I can call dealers I know to get what I need IF and WHEN I get a big one. They get theirs and I get mine.

Once again, thanks for understanding that we little guys have a niche also --- but I can't slam the trunk lid on my Pickup (Har Har).

KLD sounds like your doing some clean installs. Brother. Working here in LA we see about 1/2 & 1/2, either it's some one-man trunker, or some quasi-telecom install (alarm/electrician/computer-tech, replete with crimp on connectors and a lil' buttie pro). Or you get to see an artist’s work, someone with all the materials, never sparing cost and time for quality and perfection. Either it's perfect or a complete shambles, rarely see much in-between. Hey man those 624's isn’t nothing compared to a KX-TD(A). Everything is super-simple with the old 816's and 1232's, way easier on a computer then via DTMF. Allot more reliable, am seeing some failures but rarely, seen lots of fried Analog cards, toasted sets and the like. Got to keep 'em cool for sure. Sure those Kansas winters don't hurt.

Yes you are right you need to call Panasonic to register the tda system to enter programming. Not a dealer no register and no access to the system. This is the best thing Panasonic has done in a while. This protects us dealers from the Internet sellers selling these systems and under cutting us. This protects our investment and time to get certified. What could be wrong with that? I for one am sick and tired of being under cut by the internet and hackers. This is not a hobby for me this is what I do for a living and have been for 27 years now. It is about time.

I realize this is a little off-topic, but this thread has already gone a bit astray, have you noticed you can't share a dsl and tda signal on the same cable, unless it is new cat-3 or cat-5? The DSL won't work, seen it twice now. Of course I'm not taking any chances, easier to run two feeds if it's gonna have DSL. Have you ever used the new 2.4 (7680) near a car with an alarm? Try it!

This protects us dealers from the Internet sellers selling these systems and under cutting us. This protects our investment and time to get certified. What could be wrong with that? I for one am sick and tired of being under cut by the internet and hackers. This is not a hobby for me this is what I do for a living and have been for 27 years now.

If you put it that way about all I can say is Amen. I'm all for it.

-Hal

I wholeheartedly agree with you on that. There are so many companies that absolutely prostitute themselves into selling at such rediculously low prices that they couldn't possibly make any profit, short of a few hundred dollars. I guess they can afford to do this because they don't provide any real support, installation or service. Who is left stuck, the end user the customer.

We used to be Comdial dealers from 1990 to 1998. There was a company in Virginia, Chesapeake Communications that sold us Comdial Inntouch systems for less than I could buy them from Graybar or North Supply. They were brand new. I believe what causes them to sell so low is that there are different levels of dealerships and different discounts offered by the manufactures based on the volumes they sell. They can't maintain their "elite" dealership status by just selling what they install. They couldn't install and service all those systems unless they hire 20 telemarketers,10 salespeople and 10 installers and hit the market around the clock. Therefore, they sell the largest volume to other companies in order to get the low prices for their installs. They don't even care if they make a profit.

We used to sell about 7 Inntouch Comdials per month for over 8 years straight here in South Florida. Then Comdial discontinued the system and came out with the new Inntouch Concierge, which was a great system but required certification. When you have installed that many systems what could they possibly teach you. We even solved their gliches that their own tech support couln't solve. We stopped selling it and Comdial practically went out of business a few years later.

The problem that is created is that ignorant end users and unknowledgeable installers give Panasonic a bad name. The features don't work properly and who does the end user blame: themselves or their installer or Panasonic. Panasonic. (That system is a piece of shit is commonly uttered). They tend to run a much tighter ship on the TDA products which allows you to benefit if you are certified. You have to register the serial number with Panasonic. We have installed a few and it is an incredible little system.

The problem they have is that they have no local training (at least for us). They should have some on line training courses or have it available in more cities. Every Panasonic we have installed we have not touched or serviced in years (they are rock-solid systems if installed properly).

After getting certified on the DBS only to have them discontinue it. I don't see the need to get certified. Especially with other systems out there which don't but you thru the hoops just to sell their systems.

Can you share what the requirements are to become a dealer? Is there a requirement for:

A storefront operation?
quotas?
protected territory?

Also, Is the KX-TDA basically the replacement for the KX-TD? I guess they are dropping the KX-TA as well?

Cat5, I just noticed your profile isn't complete.
e mail me, I'll send you what I have.
The TDs are going away and the TA 624 is being replaced by a new TA 824.
MrG

Thanks MrG. I will email you shortly.

I haven't really pushed the 624 in the past. (I'm a TD fan) but just from the description it sounds like a move in the right direction. The biggest roadblock I have encountered seems to be hitting the CO limits of these systems. 2 more CO's just might do the trick for an affordable buy-in with good capacity.



[This message has been edited by cat5installer (edited July 12, 2005).]

TDA's are great. Panasonic finally has it together for certification to stop the Internet bootleggers and Joe Blow working out of his house with no overhead, no insurance and no support back-up and no trainer (i.e. trunkers). I hate going out to bid a system with my time and fuel and lose to someone selling the product at almost my cost. The trunkers in our area are just happy to sell systems at cost and make their money on the install. I won't even price a system over the phone anymore. Panasonic finally heard us on this issue. And, the wireless cells are great.

Cat 5, you've got mail

Thanks for that MrG!

Hello all, I have a different senario. I worked for 40 years at a local CLEC and the last 20 on A Lucent 5ESS and I am certified on it. This is way bigger than a panasonic PBX, but it and the PBX does the same thing basically. The thing is, not everyone is a dummy on entry to the PBX world. How about a pre test to see what you know and if you score well, you are certified. Those that don't have to go to training. The biggest problem in the PBX world is the IT guys who butcher things big time or make a point to stop duplicate labor. Most IT guys are too lazy to run wires. They want to be the programmer. The biggest threat to the traditional PBX is VOIP. Small systems that use the internet to a customers computer on one cable using a router. This is our threat. Even the CLEC's are providing VOIP dialtone and IT people are just pushing it out to employees via a small router switch. As long as there is a cross in the fields, we will lose. The other is the electricians running telco and data wires. We lose the revenue of cable running, but we can't do the work of an electric ian. They do the wiring for the quick buck. Brad

"How about a pre test to see what you know and if you score well, you are certified."
You'll need a pre-test glossary of terms! I'm here to tell you that different manufacturers have different names for the same function. AND, sometimes the word(s) are in both glossaries and mean totally unrelated things! John C.