atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums General General Telephone & Systems Information antique phones don"t ring

I have 7 phones in the house. all but one of the phones are antique phones (pre 1970's). The newer phone and only one antique ring on incoming calls. What can be done to get all the phones ringing?

Where do you get your phone service? Verizon? FiOS? Cable company?

-Hal

Just a hunch, but the total load that all of the phones creates is probably exceeding what your service provider can support (the maximum R.E.N. limit is being exceeded).

A simple test is to unplug all of the phones, connect one make a test call in, add another phone and repeat until the phones no longer ring properly.

But, yes, are you getting service from a cable provider, Verizon FiOS or Verizon copper?

I ask only because I can get an idea what the REN supplied is. You antique phones would normally have mechanical ringers which consume the most ring current. I believe a copper POTS line will ring 5 (REN=5) such ringers assuming 1 REN each.

-Hal

If pre 70's are antique then I'm a fossil

Jim, To think of pre '70s as "antique" is hilarious. At best, lets go with "Vintage" even we don't know here what actual era we are dealing with. Even coffin phones, candlestick phones, etc. are all more correctly identified as "Vintage". Of course if he does truly have antique phones (100+ years), then he has to leave them as curiosity pieces. You don't want to ruin them by retrofitting them to work. In all likelihood, my guess is that we are dealing with rotary dial 500 sets and the like.

Greenie, bottom line is your Tel Co will only be sending at best, enough current to ring 5 phones. Just check the REN number on the bottom of your phone. It should list 1.0A. If the sum total of all your phones is over 5, you are doing well to have any phones ring.

Without seeing them I would guess the phones if they are that old dont have a REN on them. Maybe the ringers have to be wired for bridged ringing instead of party. If the REN is too high the ringing will trip on the first cycle. Jim says only two of them ring. What model of phone are they?

It could also be that the ringer isn't hooked up. Older phones with out modular cords needed the yellow wire moved over to green to turn the ringer on.

But we could go on all day. We need to know the make and models of all the phones and then we can start troubleshooting.

Sam

Well, OK. What happens if you plug them in one at a time? Does each phone ring that way?

-Hal

Am getting the model #'s together and will get back to everyone with the info. My service is with Verizon and is on a copper line. I had an electricia come in and was told by him that there wasn't enough ringing voltage (?). When one of the older phones is plugged in along with the much newer phone both ring. When another older phone is added, that phone doesn't ring.

The sparky is wrong (I just wanted to say it before Hal does). It isn't the voltage, there just ain't 'nough current to push it.

everything you never wanted to know about loop current can be found here

Verizon is required by tariff (law) to provide enough current and voltage to ring an equivalent of 5.0A.

Count your RE and if it's less than 5.0 you have case.

A typical 500-type set (or 2500) is 1.0A. newer electronic ringers are listed at less than 1.0A.

If that number of ringer equivalence exceeds the capability of your landline, you can complain, and they are obligated to fix the problem.

well here they are: I have 1 Western Electric model 302 desk phone from the early 40's, 1 Western Electric model 202 desk phone from the early 20's (no bell inside), 1 Western Electric model 354 wall phone from the 40's, 2 Automatic Electric Type 40 Momophone desk phones from the late 30's, 1 Kelloge 925 desk phone, 1 Automatic Electric Type 50 wall phone from the 40's and finally one modern cordless push button phone with a builtin recorder which does not ring or pick up until the other phone has rung 8 times.

Try on the WE 302 putting the yellow line cord onto the green line cord, the WE 202 requires a bell box, the WE 354 also see WE 302.

You have more than 5.0A. You need to reduce the number of ringers, one at a time, until the rest ring. Or get a ring extender.

Where in NY?

I was in a house recently on Long Island that had almost the same combination of phones.

If you have a modern "network interface device" ("NID") the gray thing that interfaces between your wires and Verizon's, you can eliminate a half ringer equivalent by bypassing the circuit in the NID. It's in there for testing, but it's not technically needed.

You can use a viking ring booster on the line and jump it up to 12 REN

1) location is on the Lynhurst property in Westchester County NY
2) I will try switching the wiring (yellow added to green)
3) can you explain the Viking ring extender. Will it damage the other phones, change volume, and where to get one if needed?

You are right by us in Tarrytown, we are in Hawthorne. I've been to Lindhurst a few times several years ago. Are those phones part of the decor? Let me know if I can be of any help.

-Hal

Glaven. Where to begin...

1.) In reference to the circuit in your network interface, Arthur was talking about a half-ringer; it is bridged on the pair at the NIU to provide the equivalent AC impedance of ringer (and capacitor) equal to 0.5 ren. They are used for automated testng systems to provide a known impedance signature at a known point on the line, even if you disconnect everything on the customer side. I don't know about NY, but in these parts they are virtually unknown - I have never seen one on a Verizon or Frontier (nee Commonwealth) POTS line. The caution made against removing it was probably wise; if you don't know exactly what you are looking at inside the NIU you could wind up compromising the protectors.

2.) Sparky was both right and wrong: A standard mechanical ringer requires both sufficient voltage and sufficent current to ring. The nominal ringing voltage is 90VAC at 20 hertz; however later ringers will usually ring on as little as 60-70 volts. About 20-35 mA is a typical current draw.

3.) You are defenitely WAY over five ren with that nice collection of yours (Wow). Some of the ringers used in 300 and earlier sets were well over 1 ren each - remember that a mechanical ringer ren of 1.0 is for an F-type (or later) ringer with both coils in series.

4.) As was said, with older phones, standard bridged ringing was the exception, not the norm. Grounded ringing was standard for two-party lines and common on single lines, and then there were gas-tube polarized ringing and (in non-Bell areas) harmonic and decimonic ringing. Furthermore, just because a phone is WE doesn't mean it wasn't set up for the latter: I have here a standard WE 554, except it isn't a 554 but rather some odd numbered phone shipped by WE with no ringer installed for use in a non-Bell CO with frequency-dependent ringing (the ringer was installed by the purchaser, in this case Commonwealth Tel). Bottom line: get the BSP's (or KSP's, etc.) for all your phones and go over all the wiring and also verify the ringer type by looking at old catalogs, etc. An oddball frequency-dependent ringer might still ring if it is the only phone on the line, however when bridged with other phones none of them may ring because of the severe impedance mis-match. This is why real-world data comes in handy (see below).

5.) After you check all you connections and verify you ringer types, test each phone seperately on the bench to see how much current the ringer actually draws. Is use a late-madel Tellabs key system power supply that has a 90V 20 hertz ringing output, but any key system supply with a ringing output will do as long as it is 20 hz. (don't use a 30 hz. unit). Connect a good quality digital VOM (setup to measure current) in series with phone and see how much it really draws - once you've identified the phone(s) that are drawing too much, you can go on from there.

CAUTION : If you are not 100% clear on how to connect your VOM to measure current, you may want to skip this part. I don't want to blamed if you blow up your meter.

6.) If you want to ring all these phones, the ring booster is probably the way to go, but only after you verify the connections and ringer types. Another alternative is to swap out the ringers for later model units, there are some mechanical ringers which were quite small (such as the ones used in Princess phones).

Jim, Solid info but since our new member's tag indicates that he is green, I don't think he has any Tellabs ring generators laying around like many of us do. He should just try a combination of different phones to see just how many he can get going. I suggest starting with the newest phones first to see how many of those he can get to ring. Then, disconnect those and try it again starting with the older phones. Working forward and then backwards can give him a clue as to which phones he can have ring and which phones he should silence. A ring booster may be overkill. Besides, I think Hal wants to go over to help and play with these old phones. It certainly sounds like fun to me!

Well I have to tell you that the 202 will never ring and talk without a "bell box".

Never say never. Lots of them are out there, jury-rigged without a subset. The voice quality is awful, the clicks will kill your ear...but they are out there.

Wired many 201 and 202 sets with an Automatic Electric mini-network (from a Trendline phone) inside the base of the phone. No room for a ringer, but good quality speach.

so did I , wasn't there room in there for a 90v buzzer also ?

I seem to recall squeezing them in

Could it also be that the wiring in the home isnt consistant ? Dont the older 2500 (princess) phones need to be polarity sensitive? Just a question to put out there ? is he plugging the phones into the same jacks or moving them around ?

your correct AL , he early WE touch tone pads where polarity sensitive

I don't believe the ringing circuits where though

(BTW princess phones and 2500 sets are two totally different critters )

princess


2500

No, polarity has nothing to do with ringing, regardless of the age of the set. Ringing voltage is and has always been AC (alternating current), as in changing polarity anywhere from 20 to 30 times per second (frequency).

Reversed polarity only applied to touch-tone dials in early (approx. pre-1980) phones where this condition would result in the dial's inability to generate tones.

Princess phones were the 700/2700 series and they are long-gone. 500/2500 was (is) the standard desktop phone that is still quite readily-available today. You may be referring to the "Trimline/Trendline" series of phones, often referred to with the misnomer of "Princess" with the dial in the handset. These were often addressed with the 200/2200 nomenclature.

Thanks for the added input though. Every little bit helps in situations like this one.

Indeed the Princess is long gone, and while it was never my cup of tea, I know some ladies my age who would kill to have one now - they remember it, of course, as the phone they had when they were a girl.

As I remember, after divestiture, customers who rented/leased their home phones from Ma Bell were given the oppurtunity to buy them outright at a quite reasonable price - all except for the Princess. Those were held on to tightly by the Company, and were made available (refurbed) at the AT&T "Phone Centers." That simple little phone turned out to be quite a money maker!

Jim
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Still clutching my 2500 set and refusing to let go.

Reversed polarity on a rotary phone will also cause the ringer to jingle when another phone dials.

Dave, Now that IS interesting! One of those 'file it away' kinda facts!