atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums VOIP Phones & IP PBX Networking Network Test Equipment

I've finally gotten to the "crotchety" stage in life.

Yesterday, a "snot nosed" kid who was recently hired, by one of our big network clients, as an assistant to the IT manager challenged my techs who were running cat 6 plenum cable. He stated "all the cable you ran needs to be removed and new cable put in it's place because there are white marks on the cable (the cable is blue plenum) and that means the integrity of the cable has been lost."

So I visited the site. I went over every inch of the cable we pulled. There were several "white" marks on the cable where the cable had been bent or got wrapped around a structure, but was pulled back, straightened, and placed in proper hangers and fed through grommeted holes and encircled with Velcro wire wraps. There were no double twists which indicate a twist pulled too tight. So, I told the IT manager I would test, free of charge, every cable we pulled and verify it to pass BERT at 1 Gbs.

The IT manager was satisfied as all 105 cables passed. The little "snot nosed" assistant was not. He said we needed to provide a more comprehensive test and that our JDSU verifier was not adequate. Since the manager was satisfied, his little protege was silenced and told to take a nap.

My questions is, what network test equipment are you using? Also, when trying to locate network problems, has anyone used the new Fluke OptiView XG? I have been looking at this instrument for some time now and I think it would do the job.

Rcaman

The best network cable certifier out there right now is the Fluke DTX-1800. Down side is it costs a pretty penny, but in my opinion it is worth every cent.

I won't say the snot nosed kid is right, but a BERT won't tell you much when you're working with Cat6 cable. There is a good chance they will never have a problem with the cable you ran, but if they ever start pushing 1G Ethernet over it in the future, problems might show up where the cable required straighting.

Today I borrowed some cable testing equipment which was comprised of a lab scope and sweep test equipment and armed with the TIA 568-C.2 specifications, went to the site and tested every cable to NEXT and PSNEXT at 400 MHz (the limit of the test equipment) and all 105 cables passed the TIA 568 C.2 sweep test which currently only requires Cat 6 cable to pass 250 MHz sweep test. I was able to also do ACR, PSACR and insertion loss testing with all cables passing all tests according to the spec.

I looked at the Fluke DTX-1800 and, for $10K, I can purchase a lot of more versatile test equipment for that price.

So, using over $75K of lab equipment, I basically verified what my $2K JDSU told me on Thursday. Checking with my friends at IEEE, and sending my results to a former colleague of mine who sat on several of the 802 committees, He verified that the cable we pulled surpasses the 1 Gb requirement with plenty of room.

I still like the Fluke Optiview for other network tests beyond what a simple JDSU can do, but, what I always thought to be true was confirmed for me today. That BERT test that the JDSU runs is more than it looks like and is a pretty good indicator of cable integrity and quality.

Rcaman

That's what I thought. Just as a test, take a section of cat3 wire (50' or so will do) and crimp on some 8P8C mod plugs and run the BERT test at cat5, cat 5e, and cat6. Both of the JDSU Verifiers I have passed the cat3 cable on all 3 tests.

IMO, An expensive tool for a slow continuity tester.

Neither the Optiview or JDSU are cable certifiers and should only be used for qualifying. The Fluke DTX-1800 is probably the industry favorite as far as certifiers go. I'm curious but is it not standard practice to test or certify all cable installations your company does? In your post it sounds like you only tested because the "kid" insisted on it. It also sounds like you tried to reinvent the wheel with your "testing". A cable certifier should be part of any cabling contractors toolset. Whether you own one or rent one it should be readily accessible. In the end it doesn't matter what fancy testing scheme you come up with because if the cabling specs require printed certification results from an industry standard tester then none of your tests that came up with and none of you're experts that you consult will be able to make it fly. Ultimately the "kid" was technically correct and the JDSU is not a cable certification tool.

OK let me show me my ignorance.
What is the difference between a certifier and a qualifier?
Is it the stored memory of the tests?
Thanks.

Cable qualifiers perform tests for opens, shorts, and whether a cable can support 10, 100, 1000 ethernet speeds. It does basic cabling tests and for a lot of installations it will suffice. Here's some info from a cable qualifier.

https://www.flukenetworks.com/datacom-cabling/copper-testing/CableIQ-Residential-Qualifier

A cable certifier does the same tests as cable qualifiers and more in depth testing and makes sure the cable plant meets TIA/EIA standards. It does checks for Insertion Loss, Crosstalk, and attenuation among many others. It also has features to fully document all tests performed and to provide printed results. Here's some info from one of the better certifiers in my opinion.

https://www.flukenetworks.com/datacom-cabling/copper-testing/dtx-cableanalyzer-series

A lot of times you'll read a cabling spec and the spec will specifically call for all cables to be certified and that printed results must be supplied. Ive even seen specs mention the DTX-1800 as one of the acceptable testing tools. In those type of situations a cable qualifier will never suffice.

Also, Don't get caught up in some manufactures hype of their product. Ther are a couple manufacture claiming they are selling certifiers, when they are only selling glorified testers. These fake certifiers will even provide you with a print out of your test results, but instead of dB readings ans such you get pass/fail.

Real certifiers have to be calibrated on a regular basis or the become expensive qualifiers/validators.

I have a Fluke DSP-4000, which I sent iin to be recalibrated. I sent it in with the cables. When I got it back they didn't replace the cables, which I knew were "iffy". So I tried to buy new ones for them and they're not available from them. Needless to say I am not eager to do business with them again. So we bought an Ideal Networks SignalTek II. Quite a but of difference in price. Actually a little less user friendly that the Fluke, but I may get on to it with a little more practice. Not sure now if it is a qualifier or a certifier, but since everything is in house and I'm not selling my services, it should do just fine.
In the end if Fluke would have been more helpful, I would probably have gotten a new one of those. I don't do fiber...yet, but there are add-ons for the signalTek for that as well as the Fluke.

I am using an (very) old Wavetek ProXL and looking at going with the Ideal Lantek 2 due to the price point compared with the Fluke. They have a very good reputation (equal to the Fluke as far as I can find). I also like the fact you can use off the shelf patch cords when the get worn. Can anyone give insight to the cost of getting them re-calibrated?
But I agree that you can not replace a certifier with a qualifier. You get what you pay for.

Using off the shield patch cords with a certifier is a hit and miss thing. There is a reason that all of the established Manufactures of Certifiers use custom adapters with built in cables.

The Idea LanTack 2 Certifier is okay, but from the prices I have found I would still go with a Used Fluke DTX-1800

The Ideal Networks SignalTek II is a Qualifier

I did not catch that this was an old thread. From what I'm seeing I can get a new 1000MHZ certifier with an LED MM fiber tester for a few thousand less than a new DTX1800. Going to keep looking around on the used/ refurbish market, but feel new would be the better value. They also show that you field calibrate it using the patch cords you plan on using.I like the idea as the clips on my old ProXL are broke off so they can slip out of the jacks.

A used DTX-1800 is a good buy on eBay. You will be limiting yourself with a LED MM fiber tester.

With Flukes new DSP-5000 series certifier being out and all of the large cabling companies trading in their DTX-1800 for them. I would guess that a price drop will be in order during this year on used DTX-1800s

Can I ask how much does it cost to get the Fluke re calibrated?
Just curious, have you used the Ideal? I know the Fluke is the cat's meow, just hate to get a used one to only fine out that it needs lots of money to make it current.
Thanks for helping me on this. I wish my boss was the one spending this kind of money but he feels a $500 tester is all he needs.

No I have never used an Ideal Tester.

How much it cost to calibrate a Fluke will depend on the piece of equipment needing calibration. I couldn't find the reference I was looking for, but if I remember correctly it starts at about $150.00 and goes up. The best deal is to find one that still has the Gold Service plan active and just renew that.

Thanks, You've got me thinking again. I wish money was less of an issue. If I go back out on my own I can make some money from it, but as is, just something to help me do the best job possible.
Thanks again for the insight.

Take a look at this unit. I have one of T3s qualifiers, a really good tester. This is a Certifier.
Speed Certification to IEEE standards 802.3
Cable testing to TIA568A/B

Net Chaser

Thanks for the help. Came up with a screaming deal on the Lantek 2 so it's on it's way.

That is another company misusing the term Certifier as it is not a certifier. It fits in with the ByteBrothers Real World Certifier.

There is a new class of testers that fits in between a Qualifier and a Certifier and is meant for verifying that the cable and network can in fact handle the speeds needed. This new class of test equipment is being referred to as a Transmission Tester and is less expensive than a certifier and more or equally expensive as a qualifier. It also uses a main unit and a remote unit like a certifier.

Here is an example of what this new class of testers are like;

https://www.signaltekct.com/

The Standards
The performance tests and their procedures have been defined in the ANSI/TIA/EIA-568-B.1 standard and the ISO/IEC 11801 standard. The TIA standard defines performance in categories (Cat 3, Cat 5e, Cat 6, Cat 6A) and the ISO defines classes (Class C, D, E, EA, F and FA). These standards define the procedure to certify that an installation meets performance criteria in a given category or class.

The significance of each category or class is the limit values of which the Pass/Fail and frequency ranges are measured: Cat 3 and Class C (no longer used) test and define communication with 16 MHz bandwidth, Cat 5e and Class D with 100 MHz bandwidth, Cat 6 and Class E up to 250 MHz, Cat6A and Class EA up to 500 MHz, Cat7 and Class F up to 600 MHZ and Cat 7A and Class FA with a frequency range through 1000 MHz.

The standards also define that data from each test result must be collected and stored in either print or electronic format for future inspection.

The Tests
Test Parameter TIA-568-B ISO 11801:2002
Wiremap Pass/Fail Pass/Fail
Propagation Delay Pass/Fail Pass/Fail
Delay Skew Pass/Fail Pass/Fail
Cable Length Pass/Fail Information only
Insertion Loss (IL) Pass/Fail Pass/Fail
Return Loss (RL) Pass/Fail (except Cat3) Pass/Fail
Near-End Crosstalk (NEXT) Pass/Fail Pass/Fail
Power Sum NEXT (PSNEXT) Pass/Fail Pass/Fail
Equal-Level Far-End Crosstalk (ELFEXT) Pass/Fail Pass/Fail
Power Sum ELFEXT (PSELFEXT) Pass/Fail Pass/Fail
Attenuation-to-Crosstalk Ratio (ACR) Information only Pass/Fail (except Class C)
Power sum ACR (PSACR) Information only Pass/Fail (except Class C)
DC Loop Resistance Pass/Fail

So if any device (including the Net Chaser) performs all the above tests and records them isn't it a certifier? Granted, some testers perform many of the above tests digitally as opposed to using analog frequencies, but isn't that what a network is supposed to do...transport data?

Maybe not my smartest move, but I went with the Ideal Lantek 2 1000Mhz with laser fiber kit. New but was priced close to the refurbished/used Flukes without the fiber kit.

Well, the choices are limited, and costly, when you need to have a fiber tester. Looks like you made a good one.