atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums Wiring - Telecom Carriers - Trunks & Services Cabling Telephones Systems Wiring Extending Cat5e cables

Hi, My customer wants to move IT closet about 40 feet. about 20 drops, running voip phones as well, I'm thinking of pulling the existing patch panel above ceiling height, adding a second patch panel next to the existing one, extending cable to new location. Any thoughts? Thanks!

Your kidding, right .

Are you a electrician or IT guy?

My thoughts?? Do it the right way, don't be a hack. Unless of course, you'd like to have your pictures featured in a different part of this site....pictures of ugly work.

Explain to the customer that it is not the accepted / standard way of doing it. Then explain that it will most likely work just fine and they could save thousands of dollars and let them decide.

I've seen data cables extended over 2 pairs of a 25 pair Category 3 cable and it worked just fine (it was existing - we didn't do it!).

With a small business sometimes money is tight and something like this goes a long way and if someone comes along later and says you are a hack the customer will know that it was their choice and not blame you.

If I had to do it I would use these

Cat 6 splice box

I agree with Skip. I carry a few of those splice boxes for those times that I need a quick fix. Of course, the operative word is "if I had to do it".

Another possibility and one that I almost never do unless there is no money for recabling is one that will get a few folks mad at me. If $ is the deciding factor, have you ever noticed that R66M1-50 blocks have Cat 5 stamped on their sides? A little known fact is that if you terminate the pairs just a little differently, you can get an acceptable result using them to splice Cat 5 cables. Maintain the twist by bringing the 1st pair and lace it between clips 1-2. Then terminate it by looping the wh/bl upwards through clip 1 and the Bl/Wh downwards through clip 2. Repeat the procedure between clips 3-4 for the 2nd pair and so on. Perform a data test after the 1st cable if you don't believe me. I know that I will get flack over this but before you think I have lost it, please contact those companies who rate their 66 blocks for Cat 5 and ask them about it.

Just tell the customer that there is no acceptable way to splice or extend data cables. So moving an IT closet shouldn't be taken lightly. Some damn customers think like women rearranging furniture. The only real way is to rerun the drops that can't be pulled back to reach the new location.

I also get this from time to time from customers who move into a new space and want to re-use the old crap that was left there from the previous tenants. I just tell them that I have to run new runs as well as charge them to pull out the old stuff that the landlord should have made the old tenants do.

-Hal

Id do a site survey. Then tell the client that you can move X amount of existing at my normal labour rate to reterminate. The rest will have to be new pulls.

Been there, done that (about 20 feet as well). Client understood my points.

That being said, today I found that the contractors on a McDo refurb, had cut 1 telephone & 1 data cable going to one office. They could not be re-pulled due to the layout, so I terminated the cables on a BIX1a Block in the ceiling. Again the client understood.

Extending data cables is something that should only be done as a last resort, but let's be honest, the Earth isn't going to stop spinning on its axis if you do it right.

The one time that we had to extend some cables across a hallway, we used BIX to do the job. See Dave, your southern neighbors do pay attention occasionally.

If you do any kind of splicing note it at the MDF something like "Cables spliced rm ## n side 3 ceiling tile from the door."

that way if there are issues and somebody is troubleshooting they know where to start

If you shop around, you can find both 5e and 6 junction boxes for sub $4.00 each. I get mine from East Ohio somewhere, but I don't remember where. I have about 5 in stock. It's ugly when some clown extends cables in the ceiling with a 5e jack and crimps a 5e plug on the extended cable. I found it, because the cable leaving the source was white and the cable at the drop was blue :-)

When it happened, my tester said "Volts!" on the blue leg. I just used the whole mess as a pull cord and replaced the 135' run.

Here's a link to the inexpensive junction box https://www.electriduct.com/Junction-Box-Punch-Down-Type.html

Carl

I know Carl those are nice, but 20 of them up in the ceiling? Besides, I'd rather get paid to rerun the drops.

-Hal

I used a bunch of them a while back in a house where the omnipotent and omniscient "MASTER ELECTRICIAN" had not only run the data wires along with the Romex, but had actually tie-wrapped them all together. The customer's computers and whole-house audio system wouldn't work (shock!) I couldn't re-run them, because it was a finished house, so I used those splice boxes on a dozen or so re-routed Cat5e cables. Everything works, and I haven't heard any complaints since then.

Thanks all for the input. I agree but the customer wants to cheap it out. My last resort is when I go to pull the permit I will explain to the inspector how we will do this (So it doesn't come back to bite me)and maybe he will say no. Problem solved. Thanks again.

Every customer wants to go cheap

I can't imagine that the inspector cares how or why you spliced the cables.

Hmmm, good point. He would have something to say about patch panels or a bunch of those splice boxes in a plenum ceiling.

-Hal

What kind of inspection, and by whom? I have never once encountered an inspector who was in the least interested (or knowledgeable) in what kind of work I did. In this business, it's the honor system. And there some very dishonorable hacks out there.

Not all space above a drop ceiling is a plenum.

Yes, you can treat it all as a plenum to be safe if you want but there is no requirement to.

Arthur,
Here in N.J. on new jobs low voltage permits have to be pulled. You either have to have an electrical license or low voltage exemption issued by the state. A job I did two years ago the inspector checked to make sure the cable was plenum and that I had grommets in the aluminum top plate. I was told I hade to move my wall phones down from 52 inches to 42 inches.

Must have been a short person area.

Some local areas around western PA require low voltage inspection. Every job I have been on that required the inspection was a joke. The town or borough was ONLY interested in the money. The people that show up (if they even do show up) are clueless. On one particular job, the female inspector was looking at the main electrical panel and inquired if the phone and data wiring were located in the main panel. I said "No. That would be a violation of the NEC." "What is NEC?" She asked. The towns and boroughs view this as a new source of revenue and they don't have to do anything to get it.

Rcaman

As a LV contractor you are supposes to KNOW how to tell or where to find out when the space above a hung ceiling is used as an air handling space. Depending on the size of the job this can save you a lot of money if you don't have to use a plenum listed cable.


In NY it all depends on the jurisdiction since we have neither statewide licensing or, in many cases inspectors that work for the jurisdiction. Here in this town you don't need a license but you do need to have your LV inspected (rough and finish) by an electrical inspector. We have a choice of inspection companies that we can go to to provide an inspection and if you ask them to come out and look at LV work they are going to look at it.

One common way hacks get around this is to come in after the final inspection when everything is closed up.

In this business, it's the honor system. Yes it can be. Even when your work is inspected, after awhile inspectors get to know you and your work and don't scrutinize because they trust you. That's not to say that as a professional you should take advantage of it. Whatever work you do, whether or not it's going to be inspected, should be done in compliance with the Code and customary workmanship standards. So if you have a ceiling that requires plenum listed materials it's on you to do it that way. It's what separates us from the hacks.

-Hal

Yes, you are correct and as an LV contractor, this is a constant discussion I seem to have with people who should know better and think all space above a drop ceiling is plenum yet they don't think space below a false floor can be a plenum.

The trick is whether the inspector knows the difference or not. Most commercial buildings here require the electricion to use BX so to avoid conflict I use only plenum. As they say you might be right but you can't fight city hall.

"BX", as in type AC cable, is a thing of the past. The new industry standard is type MC cable since the 80s. True, people still use the misnomer "BX". National codes require metallic wiring systems in structures over three stories, with some residential applications being exempt from this requirement.

By the way, I hear that Southwire and several other manufacturers are bringing back "BX" cable, but it now includes a #10 aluminum bonding conductor instead of the original flimsy aluminum strip.

As others have mentioned, never, ever, assume that an installation requires plenum rated cable. This can make or break a deal by thousands of dollars in material cost. Plenum cable isn't better, and non-plenum cable isn't inferior. It's all about what is required for the application.

NM (Romex) is prohibited above ceilings (except in some residential) even if they are not air handling spaces. Interesting what you said Ed about the "new" AC, probably going to cost about the same as MC but there is a slight labor savings by not having grounds to terminate. As far as I'm concerned everything should be MC, you treat your green grounds just like Romex grounds. If we did away with Romex it would put yet another nail in the fake science of arc-fault breakers, the biggest fraud on homeowners of all time.

-Hal

Ed,
You are right I just say BX because that's what it was called when I started out. You are also right electrically there is no difference between pvc and plenum. The difference is the burn rate and toxic fume output, so I'm told. Yet alarm companies mount panels with lead acid batteries above drop ceilings?

So I spoke with the electrical inspector. He said he was fine with this approach and it didn't matter if patch panels and a backboard were above or below ceiling height as long as there are no devices above the ceiling.