atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums General General Telephone & Systems Information Pet Peeve

We have both 66 and 110 block connections at our sites. I really hate it when the wiring installer doesn't mark or verify the connection from the room to the 66/110 block. Makes it kind of hard to finish the install when it isn't marked correctly or tested. Unfortunatly I no longer have the ability to "pick" the wiring contactor. Our administration does that.
So guys be nice and make sure the connection is a good one.
Thanks for the chance to vent this.......

I would agree that the wiring contractor should be responsible for his work. However it should be no problem for you to find the pairs on the block, mark them as necessary and test them. Matter of fact I don't even know why you allow or expect a "wiring contractor" to do more than run the wire. Most have enough of a problem with that.

-Hal

i dunno why you guys dont use bix man its so nice and takes no room i cringe when i see 66 blocks or that 110 crap

I don't care what kind of term block you use, Bix, 110, 66, Krone or whatever! What corks my bottle is going into a job where some so called installer/s decided to use one of each! You know what I'm talking about...you have to play musical punch down bits to get the job done!

I feel your pain Telecomgod! Remember when a job wasn't done until staking/termination sheets or "as builts" were provided by the installer let alone certification reports and continuity tests. :shrug:

Ah, yes, Mr. Canuk, BIX is a four letter word in the real world.

We've had this discussion before, used them all, went with the tried and true. No bit changing and duribility. 66 #1, 110 #2, Bix #10 !!!!

Label and furnish sheets --- even for myself. One set in the job file, one set at the project in a jacket on the backboard, one for the customer.

Telecomgod, back charge for your time (or deduct from payment). Then administration may have to wonder why? There is NO EXCUSE for the contractor to not stand behind his work.


My 2 pence. (Limey money)

KLD

When I was in phone school, one of my very fine instructors, Sid Welvang, had a motto that he would often repeat upon looking at individual projects.

"If you don't label each wire, you don't wipe your ass."

It was true then it is true today.

Last night I spent an hour and a half on a ROOF MPOE. I would like to say that SBC didn't do that but they did, 1930 Hillcrest, LA.

We went around and around with the installer and his supervisor and the end result of the installer not labeling things was that he spent several hours putting in two new demarks, one for each building and he would like me not to file a PUC report.

Had he labeled two pair of wires last night everything would be fine. And, he had 28 years with Pac Bell now SBC. Can you imagine just how many hours he cost people just by not labeling wires?

There is always someone after you, don't leave them a mess.

I have seen many messes completely unlabeled...go figure. I actually met my boss at the hardware store when I went there to buy a phone jack for the drugstore I worked at. We have another building, a big industrial warehouse, and he had me take a look at their phone wiring situation. It was unbelievable. Probably miles of cabling going nowhere, way too big of a job for me to handle.
The phone wiring at my school is pretty bad too, it's labeled but still a mess.
Jeff

The real sad part is, it doesn't take any longer to do it right.

I hear that!!
Sometimes it's faster...especially in the long run

Folks, I have to take both sides on this issue. Yes, blocks and jacks should be neatly and properly labeled. If 110 or BIX blocks, there should be color-coded printed labels on them. That's hands-down with me, no argument at all.

Blocks and jacks should never be labeled with telephone or extensions numbers. Those can change easily and somehow, the labeling never gets updated. Cable numbers only, please! Don't forget about remote programming or extension number portability on most newer systems.

A technician who knows what they are doing doesn't need this labeling. A toner and probe are all that is necessary. Those who don't have this equipment should have required that their wiring be terminated on patch panels.

Quite honestly, I almost prefer that blocks not be labeled. We recently received a call from a customer demanding that we tell them what pair the music on hold input was on. She was furious that we didn't mark this on the block, but my response was that a trained technician would know what each pair did.

Had another situation with a Verizon technician who bad-mouthed us to the customer because we didn't have everything marked to his liking. It was one of those riser closets on the 10th floor full of abandoned 25 pair cables. We ran a couple of cables for phones on our system. We could have easily identified them using standard test equipment, but since he was illiterate and worked for God (Verizon), he had the ultimate say about proper workmanship.

How would you even label something in a closet like that, numbers one and two? There were hundreds of one's and two's in that closet!

He was there to install a fax line and must have been P.O.'d becase he actually had to work for some of the three hours that he charged the customer. The customer was mad at us because we "cost" them money by not marking the cable pairs.

Lazy "technician" in my opinion......

ED:

You are 100 per cent on.
Within 5 seconds i can tell if anybody has breathed on a system ive installed,because
If possible they should all look the same.

If they have a problem with install etc. They have no business in the biz. They are not trained
end of story!!

i think marking the cables is a big waste of time
the real test is livening up the jacks!

I don't see why it would benifit anyone to not label their work, except to create job security.
If you are not worried about job security, then it can only save time if everything is labeled. Wouldn't it be great to take over a new account that someone else has serviced for years and find that everything had been labeled, it would make for an easy transition. Thats my theory

Who cares who you are, there will be someone after you. Do you really want some tech to come in while you've got a broken leg from trying to mate with a goat and look at your work and say, "Who the hell did this? They didn't label anything. Did you pay them or throw them off the job before they were finished?

You got one wire in a closet? Tie a business card to it, someone might just find it and call you and then what would you do, have to put in more hours for grubby, soiled, almost worthless dollars. Gee whiz.

I really like Sid Welvangs idea. "If you don't label every wire, you don't wipe your ass." And for gosh sakes, stop fooling around with the goats, they like a little peace and quiet too.

So everything is labelled all nice and neat, till someone comes along and splits a cable and screws it all up. How many of you have ever walked into a job and actually trusted the labelling? When livening a nicely labelled jack, bet you all took out your toners and traced it anyway... just to be sure.

Kinda makes the point of labelling redundant (but it looks nice)???
(Not that I don't put jack numbers and labels on everything myself)

I label all new work. Yes you're right I have tone out others who have labeled jacks, but only when it didn't work or the labeling was hosed. I have done some large jobs, years ago, and we always had a labeling system that made sense to all, of course that was the Bell days and the techs worked together. I will say that most jobs I work on that have been wired by others are not labeled when I get there, if I replace a system it's labeled when I leave.

The problem expands when we have used different wiring contractors (again NOT my idea) and they seem to use their own wiring plan. Yes I have a toner, and Yes I know how to use it. But I shouldn't have to if it is labeled correctly. We are constantly moving people and remodelling so there is a lot of change in the phone system ( Job Security for me). Our company is a product of a merge with 2 other companies, each with their own systems. We also have 8 site here each built at a different time. At least I became familiar with all of the different types. Our newest site all has nice patch panels which looked really pretty when we first brought it on line. THEN the moves started. And guess which wires had to be moved...... right the first ones in. Well it looked nice for about 1 day..... Again Job security. Now I just have to get the furniture installers to quit covering up the comm ports with the desks.

Thanks for letting me vent....I feel better.....
:banana: :banana:

This clearly points out the problems when companies try to do things in-house instead of having a relationship with a vendor who is knowledgeable and responsible for everything. In a word they are cheap.

Put the blame where it belongs- on your employer. They think all they have to do is hire an IT person and never have to worry about guys like us in the white trucks.

-Hal

And just like the cowboys wearing white hats,
guys like us in white trucks are GOOD guys!

I am a little surprised here! If we are all professionals here job security or not we provide product as well as service. One of those products is the cable and if you are going to provide the product you should do it correctly. Installing it correctly includes clearly and consistantly labeling the cable as well as the faceplates. This has nothing to do with the ability of a technician to use a toner. There is enough work out there that we do not have to provide our customers with an inferior product to insure that they have to call us back for the MACs. in retrospect the customer is obliged to use a common sense approach when hiring a contractor and choose them for quality, knowlege and reliability instead of who is the cheapest.
There isn't a tech here that walks into a new building with newly installed cable to install a new system hoping that he/she gets to tone out every cable because some idiot didn't bother to label.
Now maybe I am getting the wrong idea from some of these posts but the fact that I am quite adept at using my toner and other test equipment does not negate the need for a cabling job to be done correctly IMHO.

Tex:

I agree with you to a certain extent. A cable run should be labeled properly and consistently. In a perfect world, this issue wouldn't even be on this forum today.

I am still interested in how one would label a cable run in a joint-use riser closet. In high-rise buildings, there are frequently many systems in a single closet. Many of these systems' installers end up reusing abandoned 25 pair+ cables.

For example: "ABC Realty" hires my company to run a cable and install a jack for a new DSL circuit in suite 510. "DEF Management Partners" hires their vendor to do the same a week later in suite 550, "GHI Company" does the same down the hall in suite 570 the next day. All installers share the same closet, so who, if anyone, determines the cable numbering scheme?

Surely, competing equipment vendors won't be happy about someone punching a cable down on the next position of their blocks. That's common sense.

Maybe I deal in too much big-city stuff, but this is a daily issue where I am. I am sure many of us here in this forum from New York, Los Angeles, Dallas or Chicago (insert major city here) share the same issue.

Back to the original subject: What number will be assigned to the new cable for a second fax machine in suite 528 (Company JKL)?

Here's my thing: I can start my own set of blocks, numbered "1-48" when I install a new system, then the neighbor's vendor does the same, and so on for all other tenants on that floor. Lots of systems in one room, lots of cables.

Then, a stranger comes in to the closet. Who's cable #6 is really #6 on a service visit when they are called to extend a new fax line? There are lots of #6 cables marked on blocks! A Telco flunkie says #6 doesn't tone back to the block (the only one of many he sees), charges the customer for T&M and leaves.

"There's something wrong with your equipment vendor's wiring. Please sign here and press hard, you are making three copies".

Unless one single vendor (and wiring installer) is on-site handling everything on the property, it has become a bit unrealistic to expect any level of uniform cable numbering. It's a tough bit of reality. Unless a complete high-rise property uses one single vendor for everything ( not likely), a uniform cable installation and labeling system just can't exist.

That's one of the reasons why toners, probes and butt-sets are being sold at home improvement centers.

See your problem Ed, we didn't have that trouble as much in the Bell days, cause it was a Bell guy that did it. Even then though some of them were just as lazy and inept as what you find today. I haven't done any large jobs since going on my own, but here is how I see it. If all cables go to a common room your cable could be number and the floors could be actual floor numbers jack 2 floor 6, 2-6 or what we would do is the floors would be letters 2-f and if the floors, buildings whatever went beyond that just start over 2-ff. In the case of a terminal on every floor than you'd just label your riser cable than label each floor, multiple terminals on each floor give the cable the terminal designation. You can't control others, but you can sure set an example as to how if should look. I do agree it makes it hard when there are many hands in it.

What gets my goat is the guy who doesn't terminate all the pairs,saves on jumper wire I suppose.

Back in 1999 the school district that I work for had a company come in to wire the 4 high schools for network and phone and that was done awesome the labeling sceam is great ive started using it. for example on the jack it says "109A.130.B" then the jacks are diffent colors "blue,green.yellow,red" so what the jack tells me is that the patch down blocks are in rm 109A and that the jack is in room 130 and its jack b. BUT as for the Nortel option 11 phone system now that’s a mess its all 110’s and there are like 200 phones and lots of analog lines as well as the simplex intercom system If you want pics of it let me know because I have a lot of the CER(wiring room)

Sure, post some pics.
Jeff

Harris and Bill have it correct in My Eye

You need to label the wiring thats just prof work as far as I am concerned. The label at the station like Harris says and the Label in the closet like Bill says or suite number and iw number eg 570-3.

That said Ed is correct about the blocks for the systems. If you are not using patch panels there is no need to label the block except for port numbers and even that is a given for a good tech.

My example is an Mics loaded, I dont want to have to trace 25 pair cables from the 0x16 or main cabs to the blocks just to find my port number. It would be faster to have the number on the block, again a good tech knows what ports are what but it does help speed things along if they are tagged.

I do use my toner when needed but preffer a good labeling job just in the respect that it saves me time and money, example: 3 tickets to fill today all at one hour labor I hit the first and its marked correct on the blocks and plates so I finish is 20 and I am off to the next job (I just made a few bucks more than expected) job two goes the same (good for me) in My mind I win some and move on. I get to job three and it takes me 2.5 hours because someone cant be prof enough to tag the gear and I have to hunt for every move, did I make a buck ? sure I did but I could have done a few more jobs in that time and lightned the schedule for the next day.

Just my thoughts.

now another good thing we do here is we just use one of the ports on the network drops insted of having separate phine runs ive seen this used all over tho when i get into the office and post the pic of our set up its not really organized but anyone that knows about this stuff would have no problem with knowing whats what

Harris:

I am not quite sure what you just said here. I think I understood some of the stuff in your previous post, but the most recent one is more difficult to understand. Will you please clarify what you were saying? Thanks.

Please excuse Harris, he was emailing from the Aligator Bar and Grill and one of the gators had a grip on , well, he ah, got distracted lets say.

In a perfect world everything would be labled and each designation would be unique, however since in most cases the space provided by the property owner for the d-mark and the system never has any light, is usually secondary to what the cleaning crew needs for storing the vacum cleaner and a wet mop upside down leaning on the 66 block and miss betty shoves all the chrismas decorations in there 11 months of the year. When the phone system or as ilike to refer to it as the "life line" has issues it is a major crisis. Many of these issues could be avoided if we could be part of original building design. Not asking for a suite, just some space to be proffessional. But since the phone was invented before Custer died at Little Big Horn it is not considered pertinant technology. So we come full circle, I have the toner and all the other tools. I never trust the work of those I don't know anyway. I consider it my job to overcome any obstacles along the way to accomplish the goal. I have an hourly rate and I NEVER quote the time to do a project in a llocation that I am unfamiliar with. I'll quote the rate and the start time, if it takes 3 hours to do a 1 hour job--SO BE IT!!
Maybe the customer spent $135 to activate a fax line somwhere that should have only cost $45. % 5 years later that fax line has outlasted 3 fax machines. Well worth the $90 cost difference if it didn't cast a nickel in labor since it was originally installed.
Have I got off the sbject again?

I agree with grider. I'll continue slighlty off subject with you.
It never fails to amaze me the places phone rooms and IDFs are located. Dark, damp, and cluttered. No one would ever dream of putting their precious network servers in there. Common sense would dictate that phone systems are made of the same components as computers and should be afforded a nice dry, well lit and ventilated home.

As for labeling, I get my shorts in a bunch over that as well. I think it inexcusable not to put something on the block. Yes, we can all use a toner. But if a professional has been been there I shouldn't have to. I always do my work with the thought that someone will come behind me, and if I do my job right, it will be easier for him/her. It sets a good standard and is something we can all be proud of. I once did 6 months at St Paul hospital in Dallas and remarked about 10.000 pairs of wire. It really was frustrating trying to do MACs with the cables all labeled wrong or not at all. I recall it was the time of the Clinton impeachment so I just had my Walkman, a toner, and a Sharpie and went to it. Anyone can go there and find where a cable is terminated now.

I can't stand BIX, don't care for 110. I like 66. Bigger, easier to work on, more room to mark on.

If I find a block with a couple of CA1's on it just find the next largest unused number.

As someone else mentioned, punch down all the pairs. Not doing so is just lazy.

Oh, and another thing, don't be pulling your cross-connect wire so tight you can play a song on it.

Richard

Sorry, I typed that post late at night. What I was trying to say is that in our setup, we have 2 total boxes in each classroom, and on each box is 4 rj-45 jacks and these punch down to the 110's in the CER(wiring room) and for the phone we just use one of those jacks and instead of patching down to a hub or switch we just patch down to another 110 block ill post some pictures of the whole setup when it was first done it looked great and over time of patching this down and moving this and adding this some wires are in disarray but when i get to the office on Tuesday ill post some pictures you could get a better idea of it if you see the pictures

Harris, is the school system you work for short on periods? If so, here are a few . . . . . . .

:banana:

Just joking. Couldn't help it...

i know its all run on sentences. When I type in forums and im's i don’t use correct structure and punctuation. I promise i'll do it proper lol

Man.I seem to have a habit of picking just the right topic to get people going. Thanks for all the input guys.
Grider...evidentually you have been peeking into some of our closets. apparently the comm closet is like the last thing designed in a new building...if they even give it a second thought at all. we have one that shares its space with a large transformer(that was supposed to go outside the building)

All I can say is I am glad you guys are the ones doing the wire pulling. I know what it like in some of our buildings. And I hate it when we change things cause I know what you guys have to do to get it where the "powers that be" want it.

Thanks for all you do.....

This is a no brainer. Cable locations should be marked ALWAYS with simple numbers starting at 1 ect. Phone systems should be labeled with port number not ext numbers. The idea of labeling cables simply by number is that later when you add cables you are not confused by some elaborate cabling number scheme that gets screwed when all contigencies are not covered. If you wire in 66 then STAY on 66. If 110 STAY on 110 ect. If using IDF feeds then once again start with 1 and work your way up so that feeds on the MDF and all in a row and that it's easy to determine on the idf side what you are looking at.

Amen to Brother Coral Tech. Stay the straight and narrow. Label, label, then label again. Common sense and a logical progression will overcome superior intellect and the boss's stupidity.

KLD.

Most of our customers already had systems before ours and most aren't labeled. I usually sketch a floor plan with jack locations, assign cable numbers starting at 1 in a logical order around the building, then tone & label the blocks. Label system blocks with port # or slot & circuit # depending on what type system it is.

As you jumper an extension, write the ext. # on the floor plan. Make copies, give one to customer, one in the file, and one rolled up and stuck behind a block or in the cabinet.

I prefer 66 blocks, but a properly done 110 installation can also be easy to work on. So far, I've only seen one.

Wow, I'd do that in reverse - If there are no cable numbers, label the blocks 1 through whatever starting in the upper left hand corner, then label the jacks to match as they tone out. That way, you go to the location to install a phone, look at the number, and back at the backboard it's easy to find cable.

I too like the blocks labeled in order. Example, went to a job just recently where the writing on the blocks was faded pretty bad. Had this job been labeled in order, I could of just counted down the blocks until I got to the right one. When someone shotguns the numbering on a backboard, it takes some time to track down those numbers on large installs.

Also when you start the other way (labeling rooms in order and backboard isnt straight) all it takes is one cable add in an office right in the middle of the numbering scheme and your numbering plan is shot.

Since we are on the subject of backoards and pet peeves, I really hate it when someone wires the jack backwards and punches the cross connects down straight. Please wire your jacks straight and make all your funny crosses and twists at the punch block so we can see what is going on. I dont get to work on old InterTel GLX's or old Iwatsu Omegaphones that much anymore but when I go into one of these places and see the backboard jumpers punched down straight on both sides it just makes me cringe.

Okay, Im done for know.

I usually label my own work, and sometimes add labels to blocks installed by others, if I have time. But there is one label I ALWAYS use when appropriate, no matter what the time crunch is, or how difficult it is to label (BIX, grimey block, no light, etc.), so that the next guy doesn't have to spin his wheels with a toner:

BAD PAIR!

God bless you, man. God bless you.

Agreed. It's also nice to tag if the cable is spliced somewhere.
Mark

Aman to that brother!

I learned from a friend of mine years ago that an easy way to tag a bad pair was to simply punch down a short piece of wire (3" or so) across T/R at the main frame (Just enough to short the pair and wrap it around your finger). We really only worry about this on large campus environments that involve long walks or a drive in the truck.

This strategy gives us enough time (and visual indication) to go out on an start cracking open splice cases on poles or in manholes at our own pace. No automated system required!

Well heres two cents worth, if you dont lable your work your not a real professional,the way reality works is you KNOW someone will have to come behind you,why make there job harder?and you Are doing a dis service to your customer because you know it will cost him more ...kind of like that paper about feeding the irish their own children..grow some balls and do it right

one more thing,.....the National Electric code requires it...so read up

one more thing,.....the National Electric code requires it...so read up

Ummm, no it doesn't except for abandoned cables that you don't want to have to remove.

-Hal