Hi,
I have the task of finding, buying, and installing a phone system in a newly renovated lawyers' office building. I have mostly been looking at Nortel systems because one of the lawyers coming in has an old 6x16 Meridian system. There is no big reason for them to stick with Nortel, except for maybe being able to use the old phones, but they want a completely new system.

I have gotten somewhat familiar with the Nortel brand from online research, and It looks like what they would want is an MICS so future expansion won't be limited, and a Callpilot 100 for voicemail. They would probably start with about six incoming lines, and up to 10 extensions.

I have been searching google to try to find reviews that compare the different brands, but such reviews are hard to find.

What other brands and systems should I be considering, and where can I find some information comparing them?

I have done phone and computer network installations, but never a phones system, which is why I am unfamiliar with it all. I am not at all worried about the installation, just about buying the best hardware for their needs.

Thanks,
Nate

Norstar is a good product, If you never installed one I reccomend you hire a professional to do so. A seasoned telephone technican that never installed one would have a problem installing one of these systems.


Walter

Honestly, any brand of phone system will do just fine for a law firm. Just about all systems have an equal compliment of features and reliability.

What's most important would be the credentials of the installing company. Many systems can be purchased from a supply house or over the Internet with little or no training requirements by the manufacturer. That's a big problem because if the system is installed by someone who's not qualified, they can make the system appear to be "bad". You should seriously check out the installing company, thier track record, their references, and MOST importantly, their licensing. Just having a business license is not always the only thing required.

Best of luck.

------------------
Ed
---------
How come there's always enough time to go back and fix it a second time?

I'm going to be honest here, and I hope you don't dismiss me for it. I plan to do the installation myself. I am no "seasoned telephone tech", but a third year computer engineering student. As long as I have a manual to work from, I should be able to figure it out just fine. I think I will also have some fun installing it, and make some money for college.

Thanks,
Nate

Not to be rude but you are going to find out that you are in a different world when you approach the telephone switch, not to mention the call pilot.
I wish you luck on your install.

<climbs onto the soap box>
I just feel the need to tell you that you are making a mistake in thinking that computer experience will allow you to install and program a phone system.
I am going to guess that, no matter what system you try to install yourself, in about 6 months the lawyers will hate whatever system you install and bad-mouth it to everyone. This will be because you do not have the knowledge or experience to set it up and program it properly.
The equivalent of what you are saying about being a computer student is "I have been installing and programming phones for three years so I should have no problem setting up a Linux network as long as I have a manual."
Every phone system has its own terminology and its own set of quirks. With no knowledge of the language, let alone the hardware, you are getting in way over your head.
I hope that the people that you are doing this for know that they have hired a completely unqualified rank amature to handle the set-up of one of their most important business tools.
<climbs down off of the soap box>

Squeek
Let me be honest. I dont know if a Law office would be my choice for a first install. You know Law suits for lost business and what ever else they can come up with. What ever money you could make wouldnt be worth the risk you take.

------------------
ssimpson@oneringtelecom.com Need a Telrad Programmer Kit? Telrad Programmer Kits

I was afraid this would happen. I did not mean that I think my knowledge of computers will help me, I mean that I am able to understand complex problems, and learn quickly. I doubt these systems are more complicated than calculus, differential equations, or physics, all of which I have aced.

You are probably thinking if I do this, that I will be posting on the forums with all kinds of noob questions and be a constant nag, but I don't think that will be the case. I was just hoping I could ask a few questions now and then and not be dismissed. Especially like the one I just asked, that will not appear in any manuals.

The lawyers know exactly who I am and what my (lack of) qualifications are, and are not worried a bit.

Thanks,
Nate

SSphone:

They are friends of the family. There is no need for me to worry about that, but thanks for the concern.

paul144:

The CPA programmed his Nortel Meridian system by himself. It came with a nice chart, which he filled out and it guided him through the programming. He showed me the chart and it looked very installer friendly. He used it for about 10 years.

DO THE INSTALL YOURSELF AND KEEP US POSTED????

In the last post I refered to a CPA. Just to avoid confusion, I was about to mention him in an earlier post but didn't, and I forgot I didn't. There is a lawyer, and a CPA who is about to become a lawyer. They are forming a partnership, and moving into a different building.

they can do interconnect work on the side

Concerning what system to use--you can search for other threads in this forum where a similar question has been asked such as this one https://www.sundance-communications.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000936.html

I'm agreed that the install would best be done by someone trained on the system you chose. While I'm sure you can learn everything we techs know about a given system, you don't have access to the info as a non dealer.

Aweaver:

Do the systems no longer come with manuals? Or are the manuals incomplete?

Thanks

Many manufacturers do not provide manuals with their systems.
Some systems are programmed via proprietary software only available to authorized dealers.
I do not know of any manufacturer that will provide telephone or on-line tech support to non-dealers.

Hello having worked in this industry for 12 years. I have been factory trained on various telephone systems, not Nortel though. Last winter I sold and installed a little Nortel CICS. I was able to call some freinds that have Nortel and Call Pilot training or any profit that was in the job would have been lost. Returning to fix the little problems can be a killer. The little things and user functions are the worst.If it is a T&M install that is great but they are few and far between.That's my two cents worth, good luck.

[This message has been edited by phoneguywayne (edited August 03, 2005).]

Doctors and lawyers are by far the most penny pinching people to do business with.

Hire a professional to do the install, learn from him and you can do the add moves and changes

Squeak:

Seriously, you need to consider rethinking your approach. In general, yes phone systems are pretty straight-forward with regard to connecting phones and lines to the KSU. It is the other stuff that has been mentioned by others that might come back to haunt you. Family or not, if something isn't right, the fan will be blowing in your direction when the S&%t hits it.

I am not implying that you shouldn't do this or are not qualified, and I admire your willingness to take on a challenge. I wish we had more people around her willing to do the same.

If you are willing to consider purchasing a Vodavi STS, I will aid you with any glitches you may encounter. The system comes with a full manual on CD and other than terminology, you should be able to muddle through.

I know some of my friends on this board will disagree with me here, but sometimes people are thrown to the wolves. Anyone would try to rescue them.

I am by no means encouraging you to jump into this with both feet, but if you are beyond that, then I will assist you at no charge. That's what we are here for.

------------------
Ed
---------
How come there's always enough time to go back and fix it a second time?

Something I did not see mentioned yet.
The Callpilot 100 needs several key codes entered. Only dealers can get those codes. You will receive several sheets of paper with the numbers, but you need to go to the Northern PROTECTED website to get the true keycodes.
I'm sure you can handle the install if you can have the system on a bench to play with for awhile. We all have seen so many people try to do it themselves and end up calling us to clean up the mess. (what a pain)
Good luck to you.

Stephanie

Ed:
Thanks for the willingness to help! I will do a bit of research on the system you mentioned.

Stephanie:
Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I will look into this.

I also had someone reccomend the Samsung iDCS 500 to me in an email, and he offered to help me if I went the Samsung route.

Thats the main thing, That you have someone that will help you if you do this yourself. I think there are many things that we can do if we have to, but installing a telephone system is not one of them, unless you are on Giligans Island, and there is not a phone tech with you. There are many here that will help you out, but you must remember that most of us has done this for years and are trained at it, and some, for some harder stuff, may want to be paid to assist you.
We all do wish you well, and hope to hear how it goes for you.

------------------
Voice and Data Cabling in DFW, [email protected]
DnR Communications

I have done some research, and it seems like the Nortel system is the most widely available and easiest to get my hands on. I also found a dealer who uses ebay who seems to have the best prices. Tomorrow I will probably call him to negotiate a package and to feel him out to see if he will offer good support. Yes, it is all new equipment, and comes with the manuals. Another plus for Nortel is one of the owners has used a Meridian 616 system for about 10 years and is familiar with it, and has 5 or 10 phones that would be compatible with the new system.

This is going to be fun

Will installing this system get me installer status on this forum?

Thanks again to several people who have emailed me offering advice and help

Here's a whole different idea...

Since you're in computer engineering, think about an Asterix system, a softswitch that runs on a Linux box. Open source software, fairly inexpensive hardware, and scalability.

Just google it up...

As far as lack of experience goes, I've trained and certified literally hundreds of phone men, and I can recall only one or two that "wanted to be a phone man when he grew up". A lot of us just fell into this biz, myself included--as in: "you were hired to do this... But you also have to do this... Here's the color codes and a buttset, now go and get this Fujitsu Starlog (the ugliest system I ever had to deal with)up on your back"

jsaxe

I did run across asterix, and it looks interesting to me, but I know that the owners won't like the idea.

The deal I am looking at includes a Norstar MICS configured for 8x32 with caller ID, callpilot 100, and 10 T7316E phones for about $x,000 shipped. The one and only installer in the area estimates $x,000 installed, and Verizon $x,000

It looks like I will only be getting 4 phones, so it will be under $x,000 for the equipment.

edit:
Ah, sorry about that, I did not know there was a rule against posting prices.

[This message has been edited by squeakygeek (edited August 04, 2005).]

PLEASE DONT PUT PRICES IN AN OPEN FORUM......

PLEASE MOVE TO INSTALLERS FORUM.......

This guy's not an installer!

-Hal

We will soon find out!

Good luck squeakygeek installing is fun until the sH#T hits the fan in the middle of a cut over. May the breeze blow your way.

Breed, it sounds like you actually want me to screw up...

I beleive we have discussed many times NOT to post prices on an open forum...

No one wants to see you screw up but we see on a daily basis computer guys saying I can do telecom. The recently posted picture says it all..

https://img282.imageshack.us/my.php?image=realization1zq.jpg

Another Crisco defective experiment..

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Business Phone Systems

[This message has been edited by RATHER BE FISHING (edited August 04, 2005).]

That pic from rather go fishing just about sums it up. I'am sure the IT guy said it was a hardware problem!

Ev your allowed to get up on the soap box on this one.

squeakygeek,

Considering your computer knowledge, I think you would be well served to look in to a server based IP-PBX. There are several to consider, even for such a small site.

I was/am a data guy, Microsoft and Cisco type, and my experience with server based IP-PBXs has been quite enjoyable. About three years ago I dived into the VoIP technology on such systems and found that the learning curve in connecting the system to the carrier (as many previous posts have suggested) is the trickiest part. That being said, for such a small site it shouldn't be too difficult.

The system I have been installing is the AltiGen IP-PBX (I admit I am biased!). The VoIP phones are simple to connect and configure. The system can connect to analog lines or a T1/PRI from your carrier very easily (I would be happy to help you in this process as well). What's more is that the administrative interface is very simple for 'data oriented' people like ourselves, which makes installation and maintenance no more difficult than any other Windows server.

Enjoy!!

I am the official NORTEL tech for my company (I think I'm the only one that can get into programming) Does that mean I know what I'm doing? Kinda, but it was a steap learning curve, I did a lot of scrolling through the menus and fortunately I started with adds and moves, I now can do a simple install. Since your green to phone systems, I think any system you do will be a challenge. I know that what makes perfect sense to a Nortel tech is asanine to me and what makes sense to a NEC tech would drive an Nortel tech to drink. If it is going to be a simple install, then you should be OK but if there is anything eleaborate ( tennant services, hunt groups, ect, then it will be a real challenge). The hardest part is catering the capabilities of the system to the needs and wants of the clients. My two cents: expect a lot of dead ends, expect a helping hand from this board but DON"T expect anyone from this board to walk you through step by step the complete system install for FREE. There is an unwritten rule that when 1 installer ask for help on an issue, we help them, but you can't expect hours of free time even on the installer level.

Keep us posted and remeber we're here to give a helping hand. But like any business if you need a hand out you need to hire a professional.

(I'm good at solitaire on the computer, think I'll build a Linux based network!)

Good Luck

I ordered the system today:

Norstar MICS
6.1 software
callpilot 100 4x10
(2) 4x0 caller ID modules
(4) T7316E phones

We also have 5 M7 series phones from the old Meridian system.

I will install the equipment myself and attempt the programming. I have contacted an installer who will take over if I fail at the programming, but I still think I can do it, although it's nice to have the fun without the pressure Everything is new with a 2 year warranty, and comes with manuals. I ordered UPS ground shipping, and I was told to expect it late next week.

For those of you who think it's going to be a messy hack install, just wait for the pictures

7.0 is current software level. You bought a 10 mailbox voicemail for 9 phones? Cutting it kinda close. I'd fire any salesman that sold a customer a voice mail with potentially one box left over without upgrading. Oh well.

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Business Phone Systems

Sit back...Ladies & Gents cause the fun is just beginning.......

Anybody want to get in a betting pool????

I say he gets in a major VM jam...and suffocates...

For those of you who think it's going to be a messy hack install, just wait for the pictures

How would you even know what it's supposed to look like and how it's supposed to be done?

I see it all the time, installs of gray market equipment by alarm guys, electricians, computer geeks and the owners themselves. It may make sense to them, be neat and even work but at some point someone else may have to service it.

I've walked away from servicing some of these systems because for what I would have to charge the customer time wise to figure out what was done and where the problem is I could rip it out and re-install it properly. I tell the customer to call whoever installed the mess and the answer always is something like "he won't come, we can't find him, or (my favorite) he's dead, that's why we called you".

-Hal

From the sounds of it he will be fine. Sounds like he is determined enough to make it work. He was up front with the folks about his inexperience, so it looks like a low pressure environment to learn. My only suggestion would be to do a dry run on the bench before going onsite. Sqeeky sounds alot like me, don't tell me you have a headache if I've been reading up on brain surgery. Never learn if you don't try. Good luck to ya.

Rather be fishing:

I know 7.0 is the most recent software level, but I heard there are some known problems with it. Yes, we have 9 phones, but we are a long way from 9 users. If you paid attention to my post, you would know that 5 of the phones are pretty old. The customer wanted 4 new phones. It's nice to know that if I was working for you I would be fired, but I'm not, so I guess it doesn't matter. And besides, what difference would it make to upgrade mailboxes now instead of if and when they are needed? Sounds like a waste.

hbiss:

I guess I wouldn't know, because wiring is such a strange and mystifying art... No, seriously, if you have one end of a wire, and it is ran neatly and labeled properly such that you know exactly where the other end is, I don't see the problem.

"You da Man"

Johnyreb:

Thanks for the support. Although, I would like to make one minor correction. You say I was upfront with my inexperience. That is not entirely true. *They* came to *me* already knowing I've never done this before!

You posted.
"I know 7.0 is the most recent software level, but I heard there are some known problems with it. Yes, we have 9 phones, but we are a long way from 9 users. If you paid attention to my post, you would know that 5 of the phones are pretty old. The customer wanted 4 new phones. It's nice to know that if I was working for you I would be fired, but I'm not, so I guess it doesn't matter. And besides, what difference would it make to upgrade mailboxes now instead of if and when they are needed? Sounds like a waste."

Thank you for your vast experience in the field telling us of known problems. Great to know all those hours you have put in are doing us all good. If you reread your post you say you bought 4 new phones and have 5 old phones left over from previous install. Where did you say you only using 4 sets? My reference was to the sales person that sold you the equipment not you. I hope your technical experience exceeds your ability to read what you post. Try to install someone a system and then tell them a week later that they have to upgrade to add 2 mailboxes. By the way as a Nortel dealer I can say I have encountered more troubles with 6.1 than 7.0. I do this for a living. And yes with your limited experience and attitude you probably would be fired. Good luck.

------------------


Business Phone Systems

Rather be fishing:

I apologise if I mis-interpreted the intent of your post. There seems to be a fair bit of hostility in this thread, and it can sometimes be misleading when someone is actually not being hostile.

other people:

Having said that, none of it bothers me. Also, I'm not being overly sensitive. If all you have done is tell me I'd be better off getting a pro to do it, I probably don't think you're being hostile.

Once again, thanks to the people who have offered their support.

No, seriously, if you have one end of a wire, and it is ran neatly and labeled properly such that you know exactly where the other end is, I don't see the problem.

LOL! Don't you think alarm guys and electricians know how to do that? You have a lot to learn son. It's not what you do it's all in how you do it. You are trying to reinvent the wheel because you have never seen one before.

Make no mistake, the only reason you have been encouraged to do this "project" is because your "customer" is looking for a bargain. To you it may be fun but they are the ones laughing all the way to the bank.

There seems to be a fair bit of hostility in this thread...

Oh yeah, about that. Can you understand why?

You come into a room full of people who are experienced, trained and make their living at this craft. Do you have any idea how much money and business we lose because of people who buy gray market unauthorized equipment off the internet? Then they find some poor shlock to install it for them for next to nothing.

So, while you are having fun and your "customer" is thinking he's slick, think about the fact that there may be an installer near you that needs to support his family or make a mortgage payment.

Now maybe you can see why not all of us are exactly happy to hear from you.

-Hal




[This message has been edited by hbiss (edited August 05, 2005).]

Make no mistake, the only reason you have been encouraged to do this "project" is because your "customer" is looking for a bargain. To you it may be fun but they are the ones laughing all the way to the bank.

Thanks for that revelation. Wow. I didn't realize he was intending to save money. That changes everything.

I get to do some fun and interesting work, learn how to do something I haven't done before, and get paid more than most of my friends. He saves a substantial amount of money, and may have to deal with inconvenience of me being inexperienced, and it's possible he may have to call in the pro's.

Sounds fair to me, but I bet you would prefer it to be yourself laughing all the way to the bank, which is why you are being hostile. Not a big fan of capitalism, are you?

Read what I added.

And before you start with the capitalism stuff again, I would have no problem if the equipment sold on the net was legitimate. It's not. While whoever sold it to you may have been operating legally, it was obtained illegally in breach of whoever sold it to them's contract with the manufacturer.

That isn't capitalism, its illegitimate trade.

-Hal

[This message has been edited by hbiss (edited August 05, 2005).]

As you should be able to tell from what I have said, I already knew this was the reason. The lawyer also has a family, and he is spending a crapload on the buildout of this new building, but that is beside the point. I think that between capitalism and communism, we all know that while sometimes capitalism can be a bitch, it is the model that works.

Heck, I need money for college!

And you don't exactly gain sympathy by treating people the way you do.

Fine. Then pay your dues, learn the trade by working for someone who has experience, start you own business, buy your equipment through legitimate channels, sell it for a fair price.

THEN come back here and we will welcome you.

-Hal

And before you start with the capitalism stuff again, I would have no problem if the equipment sold on the net was legitimate. It's not. While whoever sold it to you may have been operating legally, it was obtained illegally in breach of whoever sold it to them's contract with the manufacturer.

That isn't capitalism, its illegitimate trade.

Your statement may or may not be true, but you seem to be confused about the concept of capitalism. The manufacturers try to limit distribution of their equipment to keep prices artificially high. This is not capitalism (I'm sure you've heard the term "free-market" capitalism, and that isn't exactly a free market, is it). Anything that moves prices closer to their true value to the consumer [edit] and fosters competition [/edit] brings the system closer to true capitalism, legal or not. (in this context)

[This message has been edited by squeakygeek (edited August 05, 2005).]

sell it for a fair price.

I think we each have a different concept of a fair price. I think a business should try to be fair to the customer, not to other business. That's anti-competition, which is what I've been trying to explain.

edit:

Do you think that it should be illegal for me to buy a system and install it in my own building? Is that fair? I don't think so. It is a scam typical of the trades and a corrupt government. (this varies by state)

And about "paying your dues"... That is a very long rant. You don't want to go there.

another edit:

And I don't see it as you being cheated by the gray market. My opinion is that you are being cheated by the manufacturers.

[This message has been edited by squeakygeek (edited August 05, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by squeakygeek (edited August 05, 2005).]

I'm not going to go back and forth with you on this.

Suffice it to say that the primary reason manufacturers limit distribution to qualified dealers is because they want the equipment installed properly and the customer supported.

You are right though in that the perceived value of a product will decrease with every complaint it gets. That's exactly what happens when it gets sold to trunk slammers and the general public.

When a customer buys from a dealer they complain to the dealer who should take care of the problem. Buy gray market and the outfit you bought it from isn't going to help you. So now the product is crap because they can't figure it out.

Have a good evening.

-Hal

We all know where this is going.
Homeboy installs system. Maybe he does a fair job, maybe not. Homeboy is off to college.
Lawyers use system a while and then stumble on to the fact that its not working as planned and they have lost large amounts of business due to not getting messages properly or not getting info to callers after hours properly, maybe hackers in voice mail and $10,000 phone bill etc etc etc. They call Homeboy, oops Homeboy at college. They call regular phone dudes.
Smart phone dude says who are you and why are you calling me for emergency??? Lawyer tells huge ass lie (Paging Hughe Jass). Phone dude says OK and goes or sends tech on service call. Tech looks at gobble d gook install and lack of documentation and informs Lawyer of time involved to figure out the mess and also how they want the system to work. Lawyer gets red in face, the nerve of some prople, wanting to get paid for thier knowledge and experience,,,, YADDA,YADDA,YADDA.....

My best friend is a lawyer but I stay away from them businesswise.

Brokeda........BINGO......right on the money...

brokeda...we have a winner here.

This has to be one of the most humorous threads I have read in a while.Really guys,think about it for a second.I have had alot of jobs in my life as I am sure most of you have.Would we really be doing this for a living if it was such a difficult job?I for one dont consider this to be brain surgery.The guy(sqeaky)obviously has some intelligence.The nortel docs are fairly easy to interpret.He will make mistakes and he will get stuck.I'm sure this board might have been a help to him.Although I doubt he will get any now.In my opinion we should have let it ride and awaited the results.Some of us might have been standing there with our foot in our mouth when he only had to ask a question or two.Some of you that let the topics of this board stress you out,take it easy,its just a thread.Its not like he said something bad about your mother.

------------------
Richard

brokeda: Glad to see someone has a sense of humor around here.

Richard: Some of them are frustrated because they tried sincerely to scare me away, but they failed. I kept quiet in the beginning for the reason you state, so that later I could get help if needed. Now that I know who will help me and who would like to see me fail, I can speak my mind without burning bridges. (But I will always speak it respectuflly, of course).

Will he succeed in programming the system? Or will he put his foot in his mouth and call in the pro's? Or will he install it wrong and burn down the whole block causing millions in damage?!?!?!?!?! Or, will he just run out of time and have to go back to school?

STAY TUNED!

[edited for a typo]

[This message has been edited by squeakygeek (edited August 06, 2005).]

It's not rocket science. Good luck, good since you are starting with about the most basic key system on the market.

My God Jim!!!! We fly all over the known galaxy, get all kinds of nooky, why, were almost like GODS!!!! Why in the Vulcan Hell does EVERYONE still want to be a Phone Man?????? I don't know Bones but the ships computer is Collating now, Spock belives that it can complete the task in about 3 light years.

LOL..it's good to be captain.

Well Squeeky......if this rash of posts didnt shake your shorts.......WELCOME to the world of deranged phone installers/techs......

YOU PASSED Part 1.......NOW go out and install that system and we shall eat crow......

And the beat goes on .

[This message has been edited by KENB (edited August 06, 2005).]

Good luck - once it's in the next thing to be concerned with is buying some spare parts in the event of a down system - you should have an extra KSU and line / station card in case you get whacked by lightning or a power surge or the equipment just fails. 2 year warranty is great but waiting 1-2 days for a replacement part to arrive while your system is completely down is not a good situation. If anyone is making a mistake or doing the wrong thing it is the lawyers not squeakygeek.

I agree with upstateny, the lawyers are the ones making the mistake. We all had to start some where, and I'm sure some of us here started just like he is.

If the equipment fails, they would rather run analog for a few days than have alot of money in extra parts.

Hello? Hello/ is this Condom and Condom. What I can't hear you, your phone system is broken and you talking on your daughters princess phone? I need to talk to a lawyer quick, an Fed EX jet just crashed into our warehouse and we need help now. Whats that? Call back on another number thats connected to Mr. Condoms office?/?!!!!(*()$&*(&*()&$*^(
What a joke, I'll just call the next yellow page add. Maybe I'll find someone who knows that your phone systems existance or not can snag million dollar fees!!!

Thats really funny. They would rather be out of business than getting buisness just to keep from having a relationship with a company that could have them up and running
in three hours.

Hey I know how they could save even more.
I bet they spend a bundle on Westlaw online.
Who needs that crap. I have a service called JerryLaw. Its really cheap and just as good, really! Sign up now and receive a free 1975
Sony Answering machine w/ pushbutton remote transponder.
Holy breifcase Batman! we could start a whole new buisness here!!! YEEEEE HAAAAAAA!!!

Brokeda, you're incoherant.

yeh but he's alot of fun to read in the morning....

Squeakygeek INSTALLER???

next thing ya know he will want permission to the installers forum.

Look again He allready Does, What happened to the 20 post and proven experience or Installer referral.

Squeaky don't let them frazzel you. A norstar is really not too difficult to install with a basic setup. I did it and didn't know anything about it. It's the terminology that throws ya-coming from the IT side. Some people just get sensitive about others in the business taking money out of their pockets-and rightfully so, but I don't think thats the case here. Just post your questions and someone will help ya and ignore the garbage replies.

Thanks

I got the system today. It has version 7.0 of the software. I am just awaiting the arrival of the 25pr cables, and the surge protection, which should arrive by monday, when I return from a weekend trip.

just to give you the heads up on ANY new software release, sometimes little bugs crop up out in the field that are not found when they are in beta testing.....Drink alot over the weekend....

Are you guys done beating this guy up yet? He already admitted that he didn't know what he was doing, that's why he came to us. I gave him a gentle warning, but seriously....

He has been given a task that he is willing to try. He has also advised the "powers-that-be" that he isn't a professional. Apparently, they have accepted that, though isn't that always the case until something goes wrong?

At least he was smart enough to research the situation and contact us, <the support people> for advice.

I wish he worked for me. I need people with his initiative.

Like it or not, IT guys think that they can do our jobs, and there's a good chance that they may succeed in many areas.

Can they fish walls? NO
Can they troubleshoot T/R? NO
Do they understand telcos? NO
Do they know the color of pair 5? NO

Still, we have to figure out an amicable way to work with them since it's apparent that IP is here to stay.

You get more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. A bit of extra help in the VoIP and Computers/Hardware, etc. categories might come in useful for our forum. I have only been around for a few months and certainly have to earn my clout here, but I see this forum as being pretty valuable to all.

Remember, these people aren't here to intentionally steal from us. Most of them have a gun to their head. I don't like it either, but it's clearly becoming the way of the times.

------------------
Ed
---------
How come there's always enough time to go back and fix it a second time?

[This message has been edited by ev607797 (edited August 11, 2005).]

Ed, I agree with you but I also see the other side, also, but it's like breaking in any new helper ---- see what he's made of and see if he barks AND bites !

I'm sure we went through the same, just a long time ago and it was a lot simpler then (maybe).

I wish him luck, and hopefully, someday he'll realize his errors and change his ways and become what every boy child wants to be --- a telephone man.

Yes, but at the same time we need people who can help us figure out our computers and more importanly, VoIP!

I don't know about you, but VoIP is here and I have no clue about getting around a customer's router. Many wasted hours!

I am smart, but then, I am kind of dumb! Hey, when I got into this business, it was just phones and they were 1A2.

I think being a plumber would have been a better career choice. Not much you can do to change things in that industry.

Here I go, changing the theme of the orignal subject. How easily we telephone people are distracted

Ed, you are right --- that's why I work in association with a computer guy. If it will require that interaction, I either have the customer's guy or bid it with my guy.

Same for the sparkies, call yours or I'll use mine, either way the customer pays. Same for LEC work. Customer's responsibility.

Low volt interfaces with F O for HVAC is a real money maker , the sparky gets the work, runs the wire, computer guy sets the protocols, I drink coffee and design the dial network for reporting and maintenance. Eeverybody makes a buck and the customer is happy.

Hire a computer guy if work requires, or, since I don't do that many, work with a computer guy, bond with one, work out a work agreement so he's available and you know the price up front, then you have both worlds. I refer this guy to a lot of my customers and he does the same for me.

Have a good day, it's raining cats and dogs here. We needed it real bad.

what happend with this anyone know? I saw a couple of other posts I am just curious if he was able to do it.

He successfully completed the install and became Nortel certified. Nortel saw pictures and read the post on this BB and offered him a job. He is now CEO of Nortel but I heard Cisco is looking hard at stealing him away.

LOL

Barring a few issues he has completed the job

https://www.sundance-communications.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/001105.html

see the link about for "the rest of the story"

Don't you think this simple install has been covered enough?

Mannin wanted to know what happened as he is going to attempt the same

Yes, but at the same time we need people who can help us figure out our computers and more importanly, VoIP!
I don't know about you, but VoIP is here and I have no clue about getting around a customer's router. Many wasted hours!

I am smart, but then, I am kind of dumb! Hey, when I got into this business, it was just phones and they were 1A2.

I think being a plumber would have been a better career choice. Not much you can do to change things in that industry.

Here I go, changing the theme of the orignal subject. How easily we telephone people are distracted
____________________________________________


I wouldn't put too much stock into the "Myth of Network Guy" Most of them do
their networks about as well as squikey did the phone install.

WHY/How exactly do you think you get
50 spam mails every flipping day about making your D*ck bigger from return e-mails like MSN.com and Adidas.com and CBS.com or anything with a user that's xyszaxa? It's because all those "Network" guys wouldn't know how to secure a network if you gave them a lock and a key.
The one MAJOR thing that VOIP has actually done is exposed just how LITTLE skill and knowledge most IT guys have!

Computers are extremely forgiving. As long as you're close they'll work. Most IT guys solve "lack of performance" with throwing money at it. More upgrades more memory, sound familiar - instead of fixing the network.

Half the battle with VOIP, if you're putting it into an existing network is figuring out the clusterf*ck that's been done to it.

Uh, spam has nothing to do with whether or not the network is secure. Why don't you write a spam filter if you know so much about it?

As for performance... If a server is running slow because it is short on memory, there is not much you can do other than add more memory, and memory is pretty cheap these days anyway. I'm not sure what you mean when you say "instead of fixing the network".

about 80% of all problems we run into with networks are either wiring related: cables, tacky mod plug ends and other trash that wont pas a Penta or Fluke test. Or cheap hubs, switches and Routers.
Most places we go into the computer room or space is just like the phone room, No room at all. Look up and sprinkler heads over the servers. "Do you guys back up?" Sure!!!
Where are the backup tapes or disks??? Right by the server under the sprinkler head!!!
Hello!! Wiring that looks bad usually has bad perfomance.

Well at least the backup tapes might not burn completely

REEEEALY, so what's an open-relay????

I an IT guy sets up a e-mail server but dosn't know what he's, there is an open relay (default setting for just about all unix/linux machines) This is a a mail server that was not configured properly to prevent anyone on the Internet from using it to send e-mail messages or SPAM. That's a performance issue, not a security/IT guy who doesn't understand networking issue.
Gotcha

This is true. I misunderstood the context. I thought you meant people on your network getting spam, not spam in general.

Hey squeeky Is...."I missunderstood the context" your way of saying you were wrong?

He's never wrong, just mistaken.

-Hal

Settle down, guys. I have admitted to being wrong before on this forumn. You think I don't know what an open relay is? I could show you how to hack into one to make it look like you're sending email from any address you choose. It's an old trick.

Leave the guy alone. He installed a system without formal training or experience and that bugs the sh!$ out of you guys. If he didn't do it, some other kid would have. Instead of building bridges with IT folks your tearing them down. One day, sooner then you think it will be all IT.

The fact that he did the install does not bother the sh!$ out of us. His arrogance is what bugs me. And as far as someday being all IT....I doubt it very much...BUT, I have been wrong before...Just ask my wife, Shes like squeeky... she knows everything


[This message has been edited by Frankiephones (edited August 31, 2005).]

Frankie:

Should I have pretended I didn't know what an open relay was and shove my foot in my mouth just to please you? What should I have said?

"I'm going to be honest here, and I hope you don't dismiss me for it."

My biggest mistake on this forumn.

Squeeky.......a friendly word of advice.....them there Long Island boys are scary......I dont even dare do service calls out on the island....

The sight of the BQE and LIE scare me aware.....

I have no idea what an open relay is... please don't hurt me!

This thread has wondered off the subject...well a few subjects.
Moving to the booth.