We are in a rural area where people will pay for quality but keeping costs down are #1 priority. Since it is small there has been little need to offer VOip or spend the resources to come on line with it. One of my salespeople thinks now is the time to spend money on getting trained, parts in stock, etc even though very few people need or want it. He asked today why shouldn't we do this? Why carry one product over the other feature and price wise? What are their downfalls?

Any help would be appreciated. Brian

The biggest downfall to VoIP is poor implementation and your learning curve. VoIP can do amazing things but it's more involved with it's setup.

I think it would be wise and prudent to research it and at least get a framework for how to do VoIP with whatever product you sell. Just dont believe the marketting and make your own sane judgements.

As i'm sure others on here will disagree, I believe that VoIP is where the teleco industry is heading. I dont think it will be a flash in the pan but more a long-running transition. In 10-15 years who knows what will be in place.

VoIP has a 4.1% market penetration right now as compared to traditional Teleco. It has doubled from last year. It is expected to double again over this coming year. And while that penetration is largely residential, dont think for a minute that AT&T and the others are going to invest in VoIP services and not roll it out to the commercial crowd.

The internet is an ever changing beast and seems to have a knack for devouring older technologies and making them new. I dont believe this is that much different. E-Mail has replaced standard letters. HTML has replaced mail-order and bill-payment. This board has replaced the meeting around a beer at the local pub. I view VoIP as the next evolution of telephone communications.

Cisco is going to require a few certifications. you need to both Sales Certs and Technical Certs. You need to also purchase a demo kit which is around $7500.

My sister-in-law is the Senior VP of a Bank in CA. They are using Shoretel and she loves it.

Not sure on 3comm.

Shoretel's major issue currently is the patent violation lawsuit by Mitel Networks recently. Their own pubs say the litigation will be expensive and the pending suit could stop their ability to ship equipment and parts thus impacting their business in a very bad way. This lawsuit even stalled their pending IPO for investor cash. Shoretel has an excellent reputation from endusers and I hate to see them encounter this.

Cisco very expensive to implement from the dealer channel to the enduser perspective. I know of one shop making the lowest single digit profit that you can have moving the equipment. Not impressed with the sites I have seen put in by others or the sites I've had to interface other manufacturers systems to.

3Coms a joke in this area.

How about the Avaya IP office? What's your take on that product?

How about the oldest name in Voip - AltiGen.
Just tootin my horn again.

We are installing 3Com NBX and it is a very good system and we also do Tadiran VoIP and Samsung VoIP. It seems that the traditional PBX companies have a very big jump on the Pure VoIP companies. They have been doing phones for a long time and are not trying to reinvent the wheel just to do something as simple as a message lamp or a conference call. Each have there own place in the market and as Kumba stated the implementation is very important. If the installing company knows nothing about putting in a network then how are they suppose to understand the VoIP setup and where the problems are at. It makes for a very trying time if you have to have your Network Engineers out to assist the Telephone guy with setting up his telephones. The other situation is if you have a Network engineer trying to put in a pure VoIP system and they do not understand the basics of how a phone should work they leave the customer with a big mess. I have had to go into so many places to fix the problems that are left behind by someone else that did not understand what they are working with. Just my 2cents.

The problem with VOIP is very simple: Pure voice requires very low bandwidth but requires immediacy - When I talk to you I don't want any delays in the conversation. Data requires large bandwidth, but immediacy is not an issue - If some packets don't get through, just resend them.

I've gotten my CCNA and i will tell you straight out - I don't think VOIP is ready for prime time.

It's fine for phone cards and for situations where the phone is not "mission critical". But ask yourself - Who owns the Internet? Who manages the Internet? Who or what controls what path your packets take through the Internet? Who governs what protocols that are used in every section of the Internet your calls will pass through?

The answers: No One, No One, No One and No One.

Therefore how can you guarantee QOS?

You can't.

If you run all VOIP calls on a private network, then sure. But what's the point?

There are several advantages to VOIP, but many disadvantages.

The Internet was DESIGNED with randomness built in. The Telephone Network was designed with dedicated paths and the ultimate in reliability.

IMHO there are only two reasons that VOIP has gotten as far as it has:

1- The Data wienies have taken over management and operation of the voice systems. They don't understand voice and are terrified of PBXs.

2- People have gotten so used to poor service on cell phones that they think this is the norm. They are now willing to accept rotten service on their wireline as well as on their wireless equipment.

I'd be willing to discuss this rationally and calmly with anyone that would like to. I've got 40 years in the business and have certifications on Key Systems, PBXs and COs on the Voice side and have had an RCDD and a CCNA as well as much experience in LANs & WANs.

My personal feeling is that Voice is Voice and Data is Data. Separate but Equal may not be a good concept for education, but I think it's ideal for communications.

Sam

You wont find much resistance on this board. There's only like 3-4 members who do any VoIP work that will admit to it having positives.

Most everyone else dislikes it with extreme prejudice

I'm one of the few who do VoIP work and like it.

VoIP right now is more like the wild wild west with everyone trying to jump on the gravy train with biscuit wheels and ride it to the station. The way things seem to be moving towards is that in a few years (2-3) all the hype will settle down and the real viable utilization of VoIP will start to come into it's own. VoIP as it exists today is merely a marketing blitz.

I dont think anyone here will deny the inevitable convergence of all communications into one pipe. Currently the internet (or more precisely IP Networks) is the only medium with the latent ability to deliver it. Verizon FiOS and Time Warner are good working examples of this.

You seem to forget that FiOS and "cable telephone" only deliver service over their plant as IP (and I'm not even sure it is IP). Once it gets to their head end or CO it goes out over regular TELCO facilities as normal. Hardly a convergence, just another way for the cable companies to empty your wallet and a necessity for Verizon in order to compete.

-Hal

Verizon is pushing FiOS because they are not required to give access to clec's. It will also be cheaper in the long run because they will not have to provide power. You get 4-hours from a back-up battery in a black out, then you lose phone. They are also not maintaining the copper plant anymore here. They patch it as needed. Most new developments are only getting FiOS pulled to them. And wherever they install FiOS they pull the copper out and refuse to re-run it if you decide you are not satisfied.

It seems like half of it is to be competitive and the other half is to not.

Time Warner/Brighthouse is definitely using a privatized IP network over their CaTV. You can actually see the IP on the diagnostics screen. The serial numbers are the MAC Address' of the boxes that they program into their provisioning servers.

While I don't want to get into the endless debate of why VoIP is better than real phones systems, I would like to correct this statement you made. It is simply not true.

You'll probably find that most of us HAVE deployed VoIP with positive results. We use it to network systems via an existing (hopefully managed) IP pipe. Or, we use it for a few remote phones. That is where VoIP works well.

What we, who have been doing this for years and are accustomed to systems that run problem free for years, don't believe is that VoIP is the best method for everything. TDM systems, POTS lines, T1's and PRI's are still much more reliable than pure VoIP systems.

I agree. I should have worded my post better. VoIP is not the end-all answer.

To get back on topic. Not into another endless debate.

I have been in the industry on the carrier and interconnect side for many years. VOIP is good in the proper enviroment.

In my opinion. I repeat my opinion.

If I were to advise an IP system I would probaby go with several that I have seen customers like.

Shoretel is probably the most liked from the many I have talked to. Although as brought up earlier is currently in a law suite with Mitel.

Mitel I have not seen but have been told it works well.

Allworx is an up and coming player in the complete IP system industry. Works well on SIP Protocol.

Alitgen. I haven't seen much of, but the ones I have seen it is about 50/50 on like/Dislike. Not good enough for me personally.

Cisco don't advise. I have not had one customer that has been installed with a cisco system that has liked it completely or even mostly. This is a over priced boat anchor. Not very feature rich or very flexible. Stay clear.

3com. This has not been really changed a whole lot since it's introduction in the 90's. Don't advise.

As for systems that are traditional with VOIP options. There are many that work well. NEC, ESI, Panasonic, and Vodovi are the ones that come to mind. I have seen all these in place and customers very happy with them.

Hope this helps.
Brian.