sundance-communications.com/forum Forums General General Telephone & Systems Information Data/Telecom permits in Michigan

Here we gone again..... We felt left out so we are joining the club too.



Re: State of Michigan's addition of the Data/Telecommunications outlet installation work to its electrical permit process.

The state of Michigan has added Data/Telecommunications outlets to its electrical permit process. A copy of the permit and the applicable laws can be found at the following Web address: https://www.michigan.gov/cis/0,1607,%207-154-10401-42952--,00.html

During the past few months, I have been dealing with this issue with some of the other Michigan-based associations. The following is a sampling of the information that you should know before you bid any future jobs in the state, or before you enter into any installation contracts. The fees listed could have a major impact on the bottomline price of a project.

If you have any questions regarding this change, or the fee structure, please contact the following person:

Mr. Virgil Monroe
Chief Electrical Inspector for the state of Michigan
Department of Labor & Economic Growth
Department of Construction Codes & Fire Safety
2501 Woodlake Circle
Okemos, Michigan 48909
Phone: 517.241.9320
Fax: 517.241.9308
E-mail: [email protected]
Web site: www.michigan.gov/dleg

The first item is that a permit could only be issued to a "person, firm, or corporation primarily engaged in the telecommunications and related information systems industry."

Proof of this statement is being addressed at the local AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) level.

"Workman-like manner" requirements/installations will be at the discretion of the local electrical inspectors judgement.

The revised fee structure went into effect April 1, 2006. The fee structure is as follows:
Up to 10 devices $50.00
11 to 20 devices $100.00
More than 20 devices $5.00 each

Currently, a device is considered to be an outlet or jack that will have something plugged into it. Some direct wired installation products will be considered a device.

The following is a part of the actual electrical code for Michigan:
80.19. Permits and certificates. A person shall not equip a building with
electrical conductors or equipment or make an alteration of, change in, or
addition to, electrical conductors or equipment without receiving a written
permit to do the work described. If the electrical installation or
alterations of, changes in, or addition to, electrical conductors or
equipment are found to be in compliance with the provision of the code and if
the work has passed the inspection of the enforcing agency, then the
enforcing agency shall, upon the request of the permit holder to whom the
permit was issued, issue a certificate of final electrical inspection. The
certificate certifies that the provisions of the code have been complied
with. This section does not apply to installations that are referred to in
section 7(3)(a), (b), (c), (d), (e), (f), (h), (k), (l), or (n) of 1956 PA
217, MCL 338.887(3)(a), (b), (c), (d), (e), (f), (h), (k), (l), or (n).


The following is the exemption statute that we have been using as our reference since this issue came to our attention:
Section O in Public Act 217 says:
(o) The construction, installation, maintenance, repair, and renovation of telecommunications equipment and related systems by a person, firm, or corporation primarily engaged in the telecommunications and related information systems industry. This exemption does not include the construction, installation, maintenance, repair, and renovation of a fire alarm system.

A State Permit is required in areas where other jurisdictions do not apply.


Now that Data/Communications appears on the State form, it can be expected to appear in other local jurisdictions. The fees may vary at the various municipal levels. Also, you may run into a situation where the local AHJ isn't up to speed on the permit requirements.

The State Electrical Administration Board meets 9:30 a.m., April 21, at the Okemos address.


If you would like to take exception to this new fee structure or to the permits required, I would suggest that you show up for this meeting. If you still don't get satisfaction, then I would suggest contacting your state representative or state senator. As a taxpayer and small business owner, this fee structure and its associated permit requirements could have a major effect on your future business.

If you have any questions, or if you would like to talk to me, please don't hesitate to contact me.

I would say that $5.00 per device is abusive. Does that include inspections or is that something separate? How does this compare with the electrical fee structure? The permitting process is not supposed to be a revenue generator.

-Hal

Hal, you're right its not suppose to be a revenue generator, but if they don't spend any money to monitor or manage the telecom / data that are being installed, then you and I know they are making money on this. It cost the Elec contractors $6 per 25 for lighting fixtures and $7 for each power outlet. Go figure

"Workman-like manner" requirements/installations will be at the discretion of the local electrical inspectors judgement."

.......Which means take all the rules and throw them out the window. It also means you will have to high ball each estimate because you have no idea what the inspector will pull out of his a@@ at inspection time. This is the main reason we quite messing with fire alarms, we would bid it the correct way, other companies would not and cut our feet out from under us. They would get the job and would pass inspection. If we were to do the same, we would get nailed to the wall. One inspector would let them slide, another not. You never knew how to bid a job. Had a desk full of NFPA and life safety books on my desk that in the end meant nothing. At the end of every paragraph was the disclaimer, that says "Depends on the AHJ". Of course you could always protest what he was going to make you do over his head, and if he was found to be wrong the cost would come out of his next years budget, but what do you think the likelihood of passing any future jobs was going to be?

If they are going to do it, they need to have some clear standards set in place and stick to them across the board for everybody.

I hate to see this crap happen anywhere. This is nothing but a source of $$ for cities and is something inspectors can use to justify their jobs exactly like they do with building codes. For example: I’ve seen inspectors “ding” builders because the center of the toilet was either too close to the wall or too far away from the wall. The builders know how to play the game though. They will either add another sheet of sheet rock or trim the wall studs if they have to. But the owner winds up paying for the time and materials to fix a “problem” that wasn’t a problem to begin with.

Another: One of my in-laws was remodeling the bathroom and wanted to be “legal” and paid for the permits. The electrical inspector told him he had to have a GFI outlet near the sink. There was no outlet at all and he did not want an outlet there. The inspector told him to put one in and then take it out after the inspection.

How this is legal I will never know.

:bang:

The electrical inspector told him he had to have a GFI outlet near the sink. There was no outlet at all and he did not want an outlet there.

Doesn't matter what the customer wants, it's what the code says, and it has to be on a 20A circuit. He said he wanted it to be legal right?

What the inspector said was wrong.

-Hal

I have encountered similar situations with inspectors on electrical work. Once, we were attempting to get a final inspection on a new house and one light fixture had not arrived yet for one of the closet areas in the master bedroom. We figured if whe showed the inspector that the box was wired, in-place and ready to go as soon as the fixture arrived, he would let it slide.

He wouldn't allow it and told us that we would have to install a simple porcelain lamp holder with a bulb to be considered "complete". Bare open bulb holders haven't been allowed in "closets intended for the storage of clothing" for years!

So, we break one rule to get around breaking another one. It's all about the permit fees I tell you!

Frederick County:

$103 for the first 15 devices
$5 for each additional

rip off-although we have convinced them that a device is a "box" so if we take 4 runs to a box it equals 1 device.

Ed, you should have just blanked them up. There is nothing that says that you have to have a light in a closet and a bare bulb, as you know is usually illegal (depending on how BIG the closet is).

-Hal

Hal, I agree with you on that one. Fortunately, we gave him what he wanted while he watched so he would sign off. As luck would have it, the delivery truck from the supply house showed up as the inspector was leaving, so at least he knew for the next time we were telling the truth.

This was one of those township "rent-an-inspectors" anyway in NJ, so we were more satisfied in knowing that in his mind, he did the right thing!

I have posted this before but folks need to know that your beef should not be with the electrical board but with your state legislators. In Idaho, an electricians union submited a "simple bill" to update the state regulations. It was 3 sentences or so and it passed with one dissenting vote.
The Electrical Board then wrote the fine print rules for the legislature to approve. Thankfully, we were tipped off about it and got a copy of the rules, fees, regs, etc.

We sent info to every legislator in the state and asked them if they knew they were passing more fees and bigger goverment type rules. Everyone that responded said Heck NO.. and they had been duped.

Several legislators called the Electrical Board for an explaniation (and a gave them a good butt chewing) and the Electrical Board pulled back their rules from the scheduled hearing to ratify them!!!! They were caught and embarasssed!

If you have rules and regulations that you dissagree with, call or write or meet with your legislator from your area. Do some research into this thing. Get copies of the committee hearings. See who voted for it and call them.

See if someone will offer a bill to repeal the new wording which will strike the regulations.

Charge your customers for the fee and insert a letter explaining what it is for, how it passed, and what to do it get it repealed for the future (contact their legislator).

A few people got most of these laws passed.. they have lobbyiest that go from state to state in some cases.

Instead of complaining, trying to butt heads with the electrical board (they are just doing their job)... go right to the folks who pass the laws and get it repealed.

When our legislators found the majority of us affected were opposed to it they quickly changed their minds and agreed to repeal the law they previously and ignorantly passed.

I would venture most elected folks in these states who have these rules and regulations have no idea the implications or support more fees and taxes. They just did not hear any opposing voices from those in our industry.

My 2 cents.

BTW, the City of Frederick has no low-voltage permit requirement.

Well, in the long run the in-law just left the outlet in place since he had to pay for it anyway.