It's official. I just got an email from Vertical stating it will be no longer available after March 31st. Guess I'll be looking for a new product to sell. Look out Avaya or NEC, here I come!
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What really bothers me the most is that I know it's only a matter of time before the XTS goes away as well. I have a huge job next month that I have already proposed an XTS for and I'm now scared to death to sell it. What if they discontinue that 3 months later? How will I tell this company that I just sold them a brand new system that I can only get refurbished parts for a few months after the sale?....I'm truly disgusted right now, and maybe this isn't the place to vent it, but it's the only place I know to go where other dealers feel my same pain.
Don't expect the XTS to die until the MBX networks with them. Once that happens it becomes a matter of dealer sales. Once enough of them switch over to the MBX, the XTS may fade, but that is not going to happen for a long while.
www.myrandomviews "Old phone guys never die, they just get locked in some closet with an old phone system and forgotten about"
Retired, taking photographs and hoping to fly one of my many kites.
Yep, I had posted earlier about this announcement, but it rolled down. What irks me the most is the 45 days notice. Did they not think that we might have active proposals out there that are pending? I'm going to try to stock up here as much as we can to fulfill obligations. These guys are getting worse than Panasonic.
Their announcement also makes it perfectly clear that any remaining inventory is it, that's all, no more. In past experience with their other "discontinuances" (They use this word in place of 'discontinuation' regularly. Is "discontinuance" even a word?), the minute that the word hits the street, ANY product becomes impossible to obtain.
Thanks a lot, Vertical. What's the point in being a devoted and dedicated dealer anymore?
Don't expect the XTS to die until the MBX networks with them. Once that happens it becomes a matter of dealer sales. Once enough of them switch over to the MBX, the XTS may fade, but that is not going to happen for a long while. ----------------------------------------------- Derrick, STS sales were still good when they decided to kill it by raising prices. I suspect they'll play the same game with the XTS.
While I'm optimistic in your thoughts, Vertical had turned Vodavi into yet another 'patch cord' product line. If it isn't rack-mounted and connected via "RJ45" connections, manufacturers don't have any interest in retaining their long-term dealers over this. I'm so thoroughly disgusted by this trend.
When was the last time that enough wall space was afforded to us for a system? NOT. At the same time, if we request space for a rack, we get all of the space that we need. What is wrong with this picture?
The rack-mounting bracket kit for the XTS pretty much summed the future up for me years ago. The geeks have won the battle.
I think I'm going to start focusing upon a retirement "dashboard" (Vertical's favorite word for direction). Hope to see you guys when I get there.
Originally posted by EV607797: Yep, I had posted earlier about this announcement, but it rolled down. What irks me the most is the 45 days notice. Did they not think that we might have active proposals out there that are pending? I'm going to try to stock up here as much as we can to fulfill obligations. These guys are getting worse than Panasonic.
Their announcement also makes it perfectly clear that any remaining inventory is it, that's all, no more. In past experience with their other "discontinuances" (They use this word in place of 'discontinuation' regularly. Is "discontinuance" even a word?), the minute that the word hits the street, ANY product becomes impossible to obtain.
Thanks a lot, Vertical. What's the point in being a devoted and dedicated dealer anymore?
Geeze Ed, stop whining :-) They did even dirtier when Vodavi MD'd the 96EX. I did an installation in December and they told us via the February newsletter that it was MD'd. No warning, no eol just gone. I think it was a lack of parts issue, but just the same.
At least here you knew in July that it was going away.
I'm shoveling money away as fast as possible so I can bail in a couple of years.
Just looking around at products for the little mom and pop operations that is very simple without having to deal with all kinds of issues is the NEC DSX. I never ever thought we would be selling NEC again. Sadly, there seems to be few choices for simple TDM systems.
When they announced the price increase I started exploring other products. I know I'm not going to hurt their bottom line much, but I sure do like the better support I'm getting.
Yep, you are correct justbill. When you called Vodavi tech support if needed it was nice to talk to a Tech whom had probably been on the other side as a Installer.I knew the Techs by first name and they knew me as well.No run around and no body tried to impress (BS) anybody just facts. Now that was when it was VODAVI. I loved their monthly Tech bulletin they sent out and it keep you in the loop, no matter how small a dealer you were.
Derrick, I was told by my distributor that STSe sales were 10-1 over SBX a few months back. I really don't think they are going by the numbers here, which baffles me. The MBX is surely going to take over for the XTS at some point, I just hope they give us a little more notice.
The ONLY reason I haven't tried selling the SBX before now is simple. There's no way I'm going to sell a product that has problems at the rate the SBX has had, atleast until 3.5 came out. You can look back at this tech support forum to see the problems I am referring to. It seems that the simplest of features such as off-net forwarding, are still a problem with even the latest software. I still have a hard time understanding why they can't make an 8 port vm either. 4 ports isn't sufficient for a system that may potentially have 12+ lines answered by auto attendant. These are just a couple of reasons I haven't switched.
"SBX is an upgrade to the STSe simply for voip" ? Really??? If they wanted to make an STS voip card, I'm sure something could have been engineered. Outside of voip, which in my area, is implemented maybe 5% of the time, the SBX isn't nearly the system STSe is in my humble opinion.
I have a feeling that within 10 years, the phone man will be extinct, or atleast religated to a basic cable puller. This is assuming we aren't completely wireless by then. I sure wish that when I graduated high school they had more than 3 computers in the "computer lab". Maybe then I would have a little more interest and knowlege about networking in general. As far as I'm concerned, voip can KMA ! I'll take a tried and true pots line any day.
Figures.....I have one being delivered today to replace a bad KSU at a customer site.
I will say, than the DSX is a good option that we have moved toward. The support feels much like Vodavi was years ago. That is what I miss most, it was like calling a friend when you needed help.
Its the nature of the game boys. Remember how Mitel completly bought out Trillium just so they could kill it because they were losing pbx line sales to their own key system?
That's why I, a loyal Mitel/Trillium dealer became a Vodavi dealer. I am too old to start looking around again so I plan to stick it out with Vertical until I can't hold a punch down tool or don't have to, whichever comes first.
www.myrandomviews "Old phone guys never die, they just get locked in some closet with an old phone system and forgotten about"
Retired, taking photographs and hoping to fly one of my many kites.
I am too old to start looking around again so I plan to stick it out with Vertical until I can't hold a punch down tool or don't have to, whichever comes first.
Me too. I dabble in DSX and Xblue, but desperately want Vertical to do right by us old Vodavi dealers.
Dave, as much as I share in your pain, Vertical kicked the Vodavi dealer base to the curb years ago. I think it was more of a house-cleaning. They bought the dealers' markets (virtually) for investment purposes. By showing a huge alliance of dedicated dealers, they looked valuable to investors.
These investors never had to know how these dealers were being treated like red-headed step children. All that mattered was quantity, and there was plenty of it.
According to V-Connect, the official word is that LG-Ericsson is discontinuing the production of the STS product. So we can't complain to Vertical on this one.
Perhaps the only choice I may have in the near future is to simply refuse to sell any phones that may be made in China. That my friends, will be my final stand.
Ok... So if I have a potential customer who has 8 lines, and 24 ext.'s and they need the auto attendant to route calls, which system am I supposed to propose? The SBX obviously won't suffice with only 4 vm ports. The Wave is going to be over-priced. I know nothing about the MBX and it's capabilities... I'm at a loss here. The STS would be a great fit, but it's gone now. The XTS is too large to fit the price range as well. I keep hearing an 8 port for the SBX is coming, but until it does why cut the STS line? I just don't get it. So seriously, which system would I propose?
Ok... So if I have a potential customer who has 8 lines, and 24 ext.'s and they need the auto attendant to route calls, which system am I supposed to propose? The SBX obviously won't suffice with only 4 vm ports. --------------------------------------------------- 4 ports should be WAY more than enough for 8 lines. The likelihood of 8 incoming calls simultaneously is about zero in real world situations. I usually run 4 ports up to 12 lines and have never had an issue.
Well I am so glad I am 62 and won't have to put up with this very much longer. Does anyone remember the Letter from Greg Roeper about it coming to his Attn. that some, (one) dealer was selling on the Internet? His decision was anyone who didn't tear down their website in one Mo. would lose their dealership. A year later that dealer was praised for his marketing prowess and the other dealers were trying to justify their quotes or asked to install vodavi bought on the internet. there was even manuals on the same website with free info
Agree with Deltron, the 4 port will be more than enough to take care of your customer. A one time i think the ratio of line to vm ports was 6 to 1. Not sure if i agree on that ratio but remember how long that VM port is actually handling the call,Not long.
Off topic i read where GREG is ceo of a well known SIP provider.
I think you guys are missing my point, but just to entertain your line of thought, lets bump it up to 36 stations, 14 lines (all answered by auto attendant ). I actually have a Dr.s office that has this setup with only 8 of the lines being answered by auto attendant and they are all constantly busy. My point is that 4 ports is not enough in certain situations. Lets not even talk about when it uses ran announcements, and people checking their vm's.
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" 4 ports should be WAY more than enough for 8 lines. The likelihood of 8 incoming calls simultaneously is about zero in real world situations. I usually run 4 ports up to 12 lines and have never had an issue."
I have been selling and installing the STSe for the last 7 years. What does anyone suggest for a similar replacement system to replace the STSe with? Most of my customers really have no need for an IP system. The STSe was more than suitable for most of my customers needs.
If you liked the STSe and it fitted your customers then why not the SBX? I know it is not the same, but it is close and the price is good. I can honestly say that anyone that we have sold an SBX too has been happy, and these are customers we would have sold a STS or DX-80/120 to in the past.
Don, you are so correct. Unless we go backward and install an analog (Yuk) Pathfinder for a lot more money, we have no competitive product for your scenario. Your scenario isn't far fetched either. I had it with a larger user but the congestion issue was proportionally the same. It was an XTS MPB2 user with a 12 port Pathfinder that they used in place of hiring more attendants. That unit used to stack up and back up so bad it was embarrassing. Then they complained that I let the ACD callers jump out at intervals to a mailbox but then they were leaving too many messages instead of just continuing to stack up in queue.
It was a center where the 30 or more professionals had 1 hour appointments and everyone checked their messages at the top of each hour. They wouldn't add any more people or hardware since 12 ports was supposed to be enough for their situation. Of course, at the time, the Pathfinder only took what, the older ISA boards? I don't remember anymore, but by then, you couldn't find a new PC with enough ISA expansion to grow if you wanted to. I couldn't win.
I know I digressed a bit, but in a site with 24 users when a voice mail is used not as a backup but as a full auto attendant and also providing RAN and also being used as a voice mail system and when everyone comes back from lunch at the same time, a 4-port unit is overtaxed. We will just have to quote them the MBX and hope for the best. After all, there is a reason why higher end cars sell well even though there are many economy models to choose from. They all have just 4 wheels and an engine don't they? We have to sell on applications and not just price.
Thanks for the back-up Dave. After a week of boiling over this, I suppose I will give the SBX a shot. I don't like being forced by my manufacturer to do it, but as several on here have stated..." I'm getting too old to start a new dealership". Will the digital Talk Path or Pathfinder work with the SBX?
I agree that most of my applications will work with the current design of the SBX, but Vertical really needs to get the vm up to speed. I think I am done Bit**ing.
Don once you start playing with the SBX. you will start liking it more. It is a converged system, meaning it is a Digital system that can do VOip> The station ports, accept one are either analog or digital. It has wake up call built in, so would be good with Bed & Brkfst. or small motel, or like in my case. so I don't sleep past five. I hate charging O.T. because I didn't wake up in time to go home.
Don, As far as I understand it, the only external voice mail the SBX will accept is an analog one. That means for your scenario, until the SBX 320 has a larger voice mail card or an interface to a digital pathfinder, we don't have a product in the price point that is competitive.
Went to a customers site today. He is interested in replacing his current ksu-less att phone sets. He would be using 3 CO lines, 8 corded extensions and is interested in 2 digital cordless units. This is where I normally would quote the STSe. It sounds like most are suggesting the SBX as the ideal solution to replacing the STSe. Can anyone help me with configuring a set up with part numbers? I have had no luck on Verticals website. I order my STSe equipment from Graybar. Any help to get me going and familiar with the SBX configuration would be much appreciated!
Maybe someone else should chime in, but it looks like you will need the 4003-30 (6 x 16 w/ 8-24 button telephones ) or 4003-48 ( if voice mail is needed ). The Dect cordless is part # V10000 or the VC 3013-00 for the Vertical spread spectrum cordless. Again, you may want to wait for someone else's reply to be sure.
Obviously you want one of the 4003 6x16 packages. Myself, I would order the 48 package with the voicemail card even if I only put it into stock. I also recommend getting the 4099-00 cables to save yourself the hassle. Because you are uncertain as to the hardware configuration, I strongly advise you to take in a 320 basic webinar before you get in over your head with programming. You need a solid point of reference when you start on one or you will get quite frustrated.
i'm still sitting on one of the original SBX packages with the original ultra-crippled voicemail. i jumped on at the very beginning but hated the system sufficiently, i never even tried to sell it. (maybe i was still bitter about the XceleratorIP)
so i guess there's a sense in which i honestly do understand why they killed off the STSe..
and with several of our XTS customers nearing their next major overhaul, i need to get certified on the MBX too... so i guess i'm officially in the chute.
"There is one thing and only one thing in which it is granted to you to be free in life, all else being beyond your power: that is to recognize and profess the truth." - Leo Tolstoy
93mdk93: I went down the same road you did. I put in an XceleratorIP, spent many hours trying to make it work only to take it out and replace it with an XTScIP. Then got one of the first SBX V1.0. It had so many problems, No volume on spkr. Phone. the VM was lame. 93mdk93 did you ever get the replacement VM? I called, filled out the paper work, talked to eveyone. I never did get it. Like some of the rebates in the past!! It is now a good system with the new software (3.5) and the new VM. I talked to Vertical yesterday, they are working on an external "real" VM
OMG...It looks like I'm in the same leaky boat. I was an Executone tech and cut my teeth on Charter telephones with rotary dials in 1981 and stayed with them through thick and then untill Intertel killed them off. I found Vodavi infinate (looked like an Encore CX in black) life was good again.I have sold a ton of STS systems, they just the right size for 98% of my customers and now there going away. I sold one SBX, the programing was completely different and I may never catch on. Went to an MBX IP training course. And it looks like Ed is right, "rack mounted" Patch cord network telephone systems is where it is heading to. I'm too old and tired to learn something new and too broke to retire. If I wasn't self employed I'd tell my boss to kiss my ass and go to the house.
George I feel your pain. If it is any consolation for some darn reason my customers who have an SBX really like the thing. I think they like it more than my STS people liked it when it first came out.
www.myrandomviews "Old phone guys never die, they just get locked in some closet with an old phone system and forgotten about"
Retired, taking photographs and hoping to fly one of my many kites.
Originally posted by cswroe: I did notice that some modules (digital and analog) on the MBX have champ connections, so there is hope for those punch tools yet.
I was told the CO and Station modules take amphenol cable. Vertical sought input from their dealers on preferred method and 25-pair amphenol was the preference more than modular jacks.
The CPU card however is 6 SLT/6 digital on mod jacks.
We knew the STSe was gone when they raised the prices so you could not be competative with it. We have installed 4 SBX IP 320 systems to date and I have found it to be not as bad as I thought it would be, hows that for a compliment. I thing the wiring scheme borders on the bizarre. The programming on the GUI is OK but the documentation is really not very good so I find myself calling tech support for some embarassingly simple things. Even tech support admits the documentation is lousy. I have been selling IPitomy on the IP side and its fine but its does not price well on small configurations. The SBX is cheap and so far it seems to work. I would not use it in anything but a pure "key system" application, but for that it fills the bill. I loved the STSe, thought the flash programming (like XTS) is great and button programming was always a snap. You are correct, the XTS is on borrowed time with the big push on the MDX. For me that will be the death knell. We have been selling Vodavi for almost 10 years and we loved the XTS. While the MDX programs like an SBX, frankly I have to get certified on it to sell it and theres lots out there now, with most manufacturers relaxing requirements with respect to quota, etc. I still have quite a few STS systems in service and for the most part they have held up well. Things always change in this business and not always for the best.
The MBX manuals are on the Vconnect site. It does not look like it programs the same as the SBX....has a web interface similar to the Telenium (sorry for cursing) but not exactly the same layout...actually looks pretty good. I did not see anything mentioned about an admin program like the SBX, but just browsed through the manuals.
I attended the MBX webinar today and was somewhat impressed (or relieved). Yes, thankfully the station connections are via 25 pair cables except for the first twelve. Since it programs much the same way as the SBX, at least we'll only have to learn everything over one time. While I'm generally satisfied with the system, it does have a few drawbacks:
1. Two different processors determine the system size. Although this is similar to the way the XTS is, you'd think with today's technology, they'd provide some form of an upgrade/expansion instead.
2. 414 maximum ports and only 324 stations max doesn't make me feel too comfortable. If they are seriously going to offer this as a replacement for the XTS, they're going to have to come up with something more.
3. The cabinet architecture is a bit strange, but I guess we'll get used to it. It seems that with the horizontal card slots, it wastes a lot of horizontal wall space. It seems like more of a vertical card file arrangement would be more space-efficient.
2. 414 maximum ports and only 324 stations max doesn't make me feel too comfortable. If they are seriously going to offer this as a replacement for the XTS, they're going to have to come up with something more. ---------------------------------------------------- That's a REALLY serious problem for most of us.
We are looking at doing the LG Ericsson IPECS LIK system which grows beyond the MBX and supports the Vodavi phones.
ElectSys Tech LLC Hosted Phone Systems Solutions Provider Allworx, Sangoma, FreePBX Telephone & computer systems in the Jefferson City, Columbia MO area.
I got my MBX-100 in on Wed and have it set up and working on my test bench. So far I have to say that I really like it. Have not had a chance to get into the voice mail or AA yet but will try and play with that this afternoon. Have an STS phone, a SBX phone and a IP 8000 phone running on it currently. SBX phone had to make a line cord for it to work.
Originally posted by jnimmick: why did you hate the system? I just hate to have to learn the programming for a different system, but again I have no choice.
the programming was 90% of it... i hated the DHS programming too.
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Originally posted by GeeRay: I went down the same road you did. I put in an XceleratorIP, spent many hours trying to make it work only to take it out and replace it with an XTScIP. Then got one of the first SBX V1.0. It had so many problems, No volume on spkr. Phone. the VM was lame. 93mdk93 did you ever get the replacement VM? I called, filled out the paper work, talked to eveyone. I never did get it. Like some of the rebates in the past!! It is now a good system with the new software (3.5) and the new VM. I talked to Vertical yesterday, they are working on an external "real" VM
yeah, the XceleratorIP turned out to be a colossal waste of time and money for us... we sent a couple guys to training, bought one for the shop, all that noise. so when the SBX came along and seemed stillborn it was pretty easy to give up on it... and no, we never got our old VM taken care of. if my memory serves, by the time we realised how jacked we were, inside sales said we'd missed any opportunity to get it replaced (as if it were our fault the product was crippled..).
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Originally posted by phoneguy10: We have installed 4 SBX IP 320 systems to date and I have found it to be not as bad as I thought it would be, hows that for a compliment. I thing the wiring scheme borders on the bizarre.
yeah, the wiring scheme was the other thing i couldn't understand... why would you do it that way?!
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Originally posted by EV607797: It seems like more of a vertical card file arrangement would be more space-efficient.
no pun intended, right?
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Originally posted by aweaver: We are looking at doing the LG Ericsson IPECS LIK system which grows beyond the MBX and supports the Vodavi phones.
i won't lie, i'm very curious about that system... it sounded like a neat trick but no clue if it could be taken seriously.
"There is one thing and only one thing in which it is granted to you to be free in life, all else being beyond your power: that is to recognize and profess the truth." - Leo Tolstoy
P.S., Vertical inside sales called yesterday and offered to sell us an SBX system for half price to soften the blow of them killing off the STSe. it didn't completely assuage my cranky a** but since i've already got a couple sold, i guess i don't mind making the extra coin.
"There is one thing and only one thing in which it is granted to you to be free in life, all else being beyond your power: that is to recognize and profess the truth." - Leo Tolstoy
If i were looking to replace the STS as many of you are forced to do and seem to be leaning toward the SBX line i have been studying the LG Ericsson line up,mainly as a just because project.
The LG Ericsson family tree starts from the LG ARIA then matures to LG NORTEL, and finally ending at Ericsson.
This family which started with the ARIA is a solid product. Time tested by our friends down under,and in many other country's.
The software is stable and well accepted in parts outside of the USA. Now they have finally releasesd it here.
I honestly feel the ARIA line has the upper edge over all.(LG ERCISSON).
IMHO and not by product use.
Both LG and ERICSSON are very mature and have been around in Telephony for a while. Remember they are very big in all phases of Telecommunications and have a proven name outside of this country.
The Ipecs LIK sure looks a lot like a Telenium if you ask me. I have installed a number of RSGMS which look just like the Ipecs. They were not liked by my customer and I replaced them with a networked XTS with Edge phones...they love it!
www.myrandomviews "Old phone guys never die, they just get locked in some closet with an old phone system and forgotten about"
Retired, taking photographs and hoping to fly one of my many kites.
The IpLDK60 is the same family as the SBX...which LG also makes. They are basically the same system. LG does market a rack kit for their system however. I don't have any idea why Vertical doesn't offer that part.
My question would be...how does the LG dealer channel work and is there an advantage to selling LG branded products? As a Vodavi/Vertical dealer for lots of years, I have found that telling possible customers that my phone systems are made by LG to have a positive effect. Not so much when they used to be the "Lucky Goldstar" company.
I talked to a distributor of the IPLDK some months ago but the pricing structure was not good at all. They offered 15 percent off retail as dealer list...which made it (from them anyway) an overpriced system compared to the STS (before the price increase) and the SBX. They are no longer an LG distributor, I suspect the pricing structure killed it for them.
I think it is important to remember that LG is part owner of Vertical just as they were part owner of Vodavi...the partnership between them goes back a long way. Have you looked at a LDKip 300? It is an XTS. The parnership is new with Vertical. The MBX (the Euro version is the IPECS MG) shows that LG has a commitment to introduce new but proven produts to the US through the Vertical channel. The STS is or was made by LG but was never an LG marketed product here or overseas. They made it only for Vodavi and did not want to continue to do so for Vertical. LG prefers to move more of its own "in house" products. Those include their branded versions of the SBX(IPLDK 60),XTS(IPLDK100-300) and MBX (IPECS-MG)
Here is a link to the LG Ericsson Global portfolio
Nice report Derrick.Yes i agree, the LDK300 series is the XTS. The XTS which many on this forum whom seem to get along good with.It seems like it would be a good fit for the old die hards here.
Originally posted by STS E: Nice report Derrick.Yes i agree, the LDK300 series is the XTS. The XTS which many on this forum whom seem to get along good with.It seems like it would be a good fit for the old die hards here.
Except the programming is totally different than the XTS.
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Originally posted by Derrick: The Ipecs LIK sure looks a lot like a Telenium if you ask me. I have installed a number of RSGMS which look just like the Ipecs. They were not liked by my customer and I replaced them with a networked XTS with Edge phones...they love it!
The IPECS-LIK is the old Telenium. The software is now at release 5, with a new release coming out soon.
Your customer didn't like the RSGM so you think they won't like the IPECS-LIK? I don't understand that. You probably didn't like the SBX at first either, but as the software matured, it has grown on you (us). Perhaps you should give the IPECS a closer look?
Remember, the MBX software is built upon the IPECS software.
I think they didn't like it because it was not a self contained system. It depended on its link with an XTS that was at best flakey. It isn't an apple to apple comparison to the Ipecs Phase 5 that is for sure. I assume that Presence Management still provides the Ipecs thru Target? It isn't priced bad. I have a configuration program and price sheet for the system. I can provide to any other dealer who wants one.
www.myrandomviews "Old phone guys never die, they just get locked in some closet with an old phone system and forgotten about"
Retired, taking photographs and hoping to fly one of my many kites.
Originally posted by Derrick: I assume that Presence Management still provides the Ipecs thru Target?
IPECS-LIK is now being distributed through national distributors like Ingram Micro as well.
ElectSys Tech LLC Hosted Phone Systems Solutions Provider Allworx, Sangoma, FreePBX Telephone & computer systems in the Jefferson City, Columbia MO area.
