atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums Wiring - Telecom Carriers - Trunks & Services Cabling Telephones Systems Wiring Worrisome Dmarc Wiring?

I recently encountered a customer with a Dmarc and associated wiring that has me a little worried. Here is a photo of the area:

https://www.digitalsonance.com/dmarc.jpg

I was standing in a water when I took the photo (for some reason there are drainage issues on that side of the building). None the less, the amount of exposed wiring and the choice of location for the NIU for the customer's T1 data line are a bit frustrating. My worry is that weather (or someone with a pair of wire cutters) could do a significant amount of damage that could bring our operations down some day.

First of all, am I overreacting? I was planning on rewiring everything from the Dmarc back to the wiring closet, but I'd like to get as much of this resolved in one shot. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks.

Is that smurf with all the tywraps supposed to be th e feed to the phone closet? Is that your side or LEC's? And what is that on the top?

Yes, the lines that are zip tied to the conduit lead back to the wiring closet, so I assume that is on "our" side since it is coming out of the dmarc. The box on top houses the NIU and smartjack for the T1 data circuit, which was installed by Qwest (they were the ones who ran the exposed CAT5 from the dmarc up to the NIU, then the exposed wire from the smartjack back into the building).

No, you will be fine. This installation is actually one of the cleaner ones out there. Those outdoor T1 NIDs are pretty well-built and heavily-gasketed. As for the underground cable, that's not your problem anyway. No matter how good of a job they do installing the NID, it's still only going to function as well as the cable feeding it.

If you want to see a real horror story, check this one out:



By the way, the customer decided that it was too expensive to clean this up.

Ed, I don't see a single wasp nest in there, nor any black widow spiders! Nice! [Another classic photo for Clinton's Structured Cabling Course!]

Welcome to the board, TechHead!

hey Ed did you ever finish that job?

No, I don't like it either. With a commercial building like that I always insist that the ILEC bring the OSP cable into the building and install a terminal there. I don't think you are overreacting, this could be a real security issue. This probably came about from ignorance on the owner's part or it could be sparky had a hand in this when it was installed.

Is that BX cable I see coming out of a 4" round box? Even sparky wouldn't do that!

Problem is now its going to cost $$$$$ if you want them to do it over and move it.

-Hal

Yes,.......TechHead around here that would be considered a clean looking Dmarc.

Not by my standards but Bell's.

Would I be allowed to relocate the NIU to inside the building in the wiring closet? It hooks to "our" side of the dmarc, but I'm not sure where the line of responsibility is drawn. If so, then I could simply run a single piece of conduit from the wiring closet to the dmarc. If not, my rewiring job might be more "involved" in which case I will ask the customer if they wish to chip out a $2k to replace both units and have them moved inside. Apparently they have complained of phone service issues (noisy lines especially when it is raining) and I was much surprised to open the NIU today to find water inside of it.

Actually that building terminal may not be considered an NIU, what's it look like on the inside? I know they (Qwest) have a lot of MC10 building terminals around here where the customer is terminated right into the MC10, but this is a building terminal and belongs to Telco. They are required to give you a FCC approved DEMARK, this could be used as leverage to get the interface moved into the building.

Mike L: Yes, there was a BIG wasp's nest inside the upper right corner of the left (large) cabinet. We had to spray and wait about 30 minutes to get close enough to take pictures since the cabinet door hasn't closed completely in years.

AnthonyH: No, the customer decided it was "too expensive" to clean up. There are 14 T1 circuits in there alone and one of the tenants in the building is an interconnect! The tenant's association voted to ride it out, despite the fact that it's been like this for at least 12 years.

Hal: It looks like a piece of 3/8" or 1/2" Greenfield is used from the round box to the NID. I would like to hope that there aren't multiple tenants in that building. No doubt, that's a big-time sparkie job.

I haven't ever seen a telco use Greenfield to sleeve an underground cable though. That certainly doesn't appear to be a Bell thing. The power company in DC and Maryland's immediate suburbs uses Greenfield for underground electrical service risers to the meter. Telcos here either use no cable protection at all or occasional U-guard or PVC conduit.

Like I said, the original picture is actually a pretty clean installation by most standards in these parts. It's mighty tacky to leave a 12" tail of a 14" cable tie just flopping in the breeze. Granted, it's a typical case of a lazy installer who had hundreds of 4" cable ties, but that would have meant having to actually walk back to the truck. Hey, it's OK. It's just the company's money being wasted, not theirs..........for now.

TechHead, I am sorry to say that this is a typical telco installation, and I might add that it's one of the cleaner ones I have seen. Yes, someone can come up and cut the cables and that is a significant concern. Unfortunately, the telco is not required to go any further than what they did. All they have to do is deliver service to the MPOE (Minimum Point Of Entry), usually where the cable comes up out of the ground or out of the air.

Here is the inside of that box.

https://www.digitalsonance.com/datat1.jpg

Honestly, I would be happy just to have the NIU moved inside (if that is what it is), and especially happy to find some leverage to make them do so. It makes me very uneasy having such a business critical resource located externally with wiring exposed. If I were to start such a discussion with Qwest, how would one do so?

That's the T1 interface. I was talking about the building terminal below it. I can't imagine they would even want the T1 interface outside, they must be powering it off the line, can't really tell. It used to cost more to get it powered off the Teleco line.

Sorry about that, here is the inside of the dmarc:

https://www.digitalsonance.com/dmarcin.jpg

Thanks again for everyone's help, this is a bit of a learning experience for me.

Hmmm, unfortuatley that's a legal DEMARK. I was hoping for your sake it was just a building terminal. I'd go for conduit between you and the DEMARK, would be much better and a lot more secure.

What about moving the T1 interface inside? Could I do that, or would I get in trouble? Again, that is my primary concern.

Technically you are not suppose to touch the Teleco side, but what they don't know. Packs have been know to blow when moved, so I'd be a little leary of doing it, unless you know the phone guys.

What is an MC10?

That looks like a nema rated box, the T1 circuit is in. Have never seen one outside a commercial entrance other than refinery or chemical type business. Why not use 2 padlocks and issue keys to business owners, have a sign on boxes reflecting location of keys, can cc notice to telco saying that due to insecure installation key is needed,and location of key is-------.This will give notice to telco that a:paperwork on problem is in customers hand if a problem occurs and b:Key is needed. This could prod telco to move to better location?

It's the "snowball effect". DEMARC was installed outside. Then the T1 was installed and they put it next to the DEMARC because they don't want to be responsible for IW between the DEMARC and the remote unit. The remote unit is the DEMARC for the T1- after that it's the customer's responsibility. So no, you cannot legally move it yourself.

Like I said before, this all goes back to the "intelligence" of the owner or contractor who was present when service to the building was installed. I have found that most times with small commercial buildings telephone service is an afterthought. Build the building, finish all the site work, landscape then expect the TELCO to bring in service. It probably wouldn't have cost much if anything to locate the DEMARC inside at a suitable location with a little planning. But once its installed you are stuck with it unless you want to shell out big bucks to have it moved.

-Hal

It's a building terminal, but it is not a DEMARK. It belongs to Teleco. Sorry Jeff I don't own a digital camera and a quick search on google didn't bring one up.

Telcos down here have been using outdoor NIU's for specials for quite awhile. They look like pregnant NIU's and contain 2 circuits.

I think that the original installers could have at least provided better protection for the exposed cables. Exposed cables combined with a few mischievous youngsters could result in service problems. TechHead: Geographically speaking, where in the "USA" is this site? Could local weather elements pose any potential hazzards with exposed cables?

That looks like a clean NIU from here. It should have been inside, but heck that looks pretty clean conpared to some out there.

jacktel: Thanks for the idea about writing the letter to the telco to advise them that the boxes will be locked due to an unsecured install. Honestly, the telco complains quite a bit when they come out to work on things since I keep the NIU locked already, but perhaps something more "formal" might prompt further action.

Hal: I couldn't agree with you more. I wish I would have a least been able to be present when the NIU was installed 6 years ago so that I could have argued with the telco at that time.

I think I read something one time regarding that the NIU is to be placed as close to the CPE as possible for the line (which is actually at the other side of the building), but I need to do some research before I call to file a complaint.

Mike: We are located in Iowa, so of course we have snowy, frigid winters and hot, humid summers; a cable's best friend.

Thanks again everyone, I really appreciate the comments.

To the OP: Not bad... I've seen MUCH MUCH WORSE!!

If could look better but it's nothing out of the ordinary.

I gotta find some of the pics I took when I was doing REHAB in this area.

There was a housing project where the local kids were using term covers as sleds and the little girls were getting their brother to get them wire from the terms for their dolls hair...

Don't even get me started about the mouse infested terms in the countryside.The mice chew the insulation and use it for nesting material. My goodness the smell of a terminal that has a family of mice living in it is TERRIBLE!!

Believe it or not it's usually not that they don't want to be liable for a longer run of IW to the remote unit. It's that they didn't want to have to run it! I don't know about in other areas of the country but when I worked for the phone company I got paid by the hour not by the job and I certainly didn't get a commission or have to pay for repairs out of my own pocket. SO, I just like 99.9% of my co-workers didn't care. Probably notwhat you want to hear but it is the truth...

Remember guys, most TelCo Techs aren't running the company line they are just doing a job. I NEVER tried to stick it to subs because it was better for the company. I only stuck it to subs that were rude to me I got paid the same NO MATTER WHAT I did.