atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums Wiring - Telecom Carriers - Trunks & Services Cabling Telephones Systems Wiring Picture of Good Work

Hiya folks,

I noticed in a different thread that Hal stated that patch panels should never be used for voice. I found this really interesting and was wondering why? I was also hoping someone could post a picture of what a text book good install would look like. All the sites I work at our such a mess I realized I have nothing good to compare it to.


thanks,
Vicky

I'll add to that and say CAT 5 or 6 should never be used for voice nor should 8 position jacks (commonly referred to as RJ-45).

This is really a debate between the geeks and the phone guys. Geeks only know patch panels, CAT5 and 8 position jacks, phone guys know better.

This thread should give you a good idea of why I take this position.

-Hal

Hal sums it up pretty well. Patch cords always end up becoming real messy, usually because someone's in a hurry or they're too lazy or incompetent to go get the proper length patch cord for the job. This applies to both telephone & data panels.

In reality it's more a question of "lack of professionalism" on the installer's part.

I agree that patch panel should not be used for voice but we have done it on occasion when our hands are tied.
Below are some pic's of one that come's to mind. This particular location has about 1200 wires, 600 of which we installed after our customer moved to the building. The existing was all wired with at least 2 cat-6 to each location. The customer want to continue the trend to all the new cubes that they installed.

This is the racks with all patch cords installed.


This is the back of the center rack. It has a 600 pair cable terminated with one pair per port patch panel port.

This is what you end up with if you need to add a modem line to where there is an existing digital line.

It seems that every time I stop by this site I fix a few patch cords that are not in the wire management that was installed "temporary".

Contrast having to have the proper length patch cord to a spool of cross connect wire and you can see why patch cords are not a good idea just from a practical standpoint.

-Hal

Indeed! Notice how the patch cords were "ty-wrapped"? I hate when I go into a site & the x-connects are ty-wrapped!

Velcro ties are okay, but they usually end up on the floor...

Here's my $249.99 on the subject of patch panels and it has absolutely nothing to do with the level of professionalism.

It is the fact that most customers who insist upon having patch panels for voice and data do so with the silly thought that they will be able to place their own connections.

We all know that the least technical person in the company ends up being responsible for the phone and data systems. The very person who answers her phone calls with "this is her" and can't even record a voice mail greeting without technical support.

Imagine this same person moving patch cords? The boss never wants to have any involvement in that stuff, the high school receptionist has no clue, so what happens? They pay for a technician to come out and move a patch cord.

I've never, I mean NEVER installed a system with patch panels for voice that didn't end up this way. With that being said, what exactly is the point except to buy what is yet again a CG buzz word?

I should just stop here, but I am sure that you get my point.

I like to give a little more detail of the job I posted the pictures of above. All the data cables stay within the same rack(for the most part). All the voice patch cords were custom made by us for length. I must admit that is was my idea originally but I don't know that I would do it again as it was very time consuming.

Just to clarify, I would not recommend patch panels for voice. For instance at this location the other end of the 600 pair feed is terminated on 110, the time it takes to make one patch cable at the rack, I could have ran 10 x-cuts on 110.

As for the tyraps comment above, if it was referring to cable ties, the only cable ties are on the back of the patch panels that have the feed cable installed. Those pairs are to never be moved.

All the voice patch cords were custom made by us for length.

Doesn't that kind of defeat the whole patch panel/patch cord reasoning? I mean, the purpose is to make connections easily reconfigurable. Something like that might as well be hard wired because as soon as you move a patch cord it most likely either won't reach or will be too long.

-Hal

It appears that there is data in that setup as well, though everything is the same color. To me, this is a problem waiting to happen. I also see that the patches are labeled for length not labeled for what they connect which is the information I want when I look at a setup.

The voice ones are tan and the data ones are gray, at least that's what it looks like to me...

It is the fact that most customers who insist upon having patch panels for voice and data do so with the silly thought that they will be able to place their own connections.

That's reason number one. Reason number two is the silly thought that any cable or jack can be used for either voice or data. Now you have problems breaking out pairs at either end as is normal for voice. You also have the problem of 6 position plugs damaging the pins of 8 position jacks as well as users not knowing which jack is voice and which is data.

Only in the minds of CGs does this make sense.

-Hal

Ughh... looks like it'd be a nightmare to service!

I never suggest a PP for voice... but sometimes, the customer insists and we oblige. We fore-warn them that from our experience it's more of a pain than it's worth and time wasted in general, but they still insist, usually because they're weak and have been drawn into the Dark Side.

Customers are usually ignorant of the fact that when phones move, we move the same physical port... that most phones are not "smart" phones, but "dummy" pieces of equipment. Mostly because the CG has sold them on "I can move your computer to any outlet, phones should be set-up the same".

The "It will save you $ if I do it..." theory. Almost always costs them more in "fix-it" bills instead of "MAC's". The only time I haven't had a CG cost more, is when they've been willing to have us train them (CG) in how to use a punch tool and probe/toner correctly. In those (very few) cases a CG has saved the company LOTS of MAC $, but that's because he/she listened and understood the theory of the phone system moves.

[/rant]

I really appreciate all your replies, does anyone have a picture of work without a patch panel. I would love to see it.

Also is CG = computer geek? I keep thinking it might be general contractor backwards which could also be an apt description.

CG=Computer Geek

GC=General Contractor

EC=Electrical Contractor

You can start here and get a good feel for what needs to be done. Honestly I dont know too many "telecom" folks who like to brag. So there is not much to show. But there are some good looking installs in that thread.

Thanks, page 1 &2 had what I was looking for. I am going to go google a picture of a BIX block now!

You can make patch panels work but you have to invest a lot of money into it. It is by no means a cost savings installation but one more appropriate for a very dynamic office where people move around constantly and one day a connection is a network link the next day it is a phone link and you have a phone switch where you cannot reprogram the extension number but have to cross it to another physical port.

I've done a few of them. You need enough patch panel space to bring in all your Cat 5 or 6 home runs. Then you need another set of patch panels just for whatever phone switch you are using. So you pull off the 110 or 66 block connections for the EXT lines on the switch into a patch panel and then you cross connect using patch cords as needed. I have done it with three racks, side by side. The center rack is for the home runs, the left rack for phone equipment and the right for network.

It worked out great but it was very expensive. We must have sold them 400 patch cords, a dozen 24 port patch panels plus extensive cable raceway, management and tray products. Definetely a deep pockets project.

But I'll agree the person tasked with swapping patch cables is usually so dumb that they never do get it right and they treat it as rocket science. So we still had to come in and fix things. All that money and they basically got very little for it.

Then you have to be diligent and make all your own line cords. If you use 6 po jacks in a 8 pos connector you're usually OK. 4 pos and you bend pins. You cannot count on the employees to care much about this and when they add a phone they just use the patch cord in the box rather than make a new one using 6 pos.

So it can become a real mes unless you are very diligent.

Hal,

i'm following you on all of the above except i don't understand why you recommend not using CAT5 for voice. is there a performance concern or..? and what do you recommend to use instead?

we do a lot of voice and data cabling and i know the decision to only carry CAT5 on our trucks was made primarily because we have limited space and the cost difference between CAT3 and CAT5 was negligible. that being said, i'm a researcher at heart and if there's a good reason to do something, i want to know! =)

tnx!

I have gone this way on one occasion, not because I didn't know better, but was told that the person wanted to be able to shift their office about the house depending on the season or some random whim. It seemed like a silly thing, but hey customers is always right, and they were paying for it. To fix the 8p to 4p/6p jack issue, I will end up building some cables and using the adapter Skip shows from this post when I asked about it.

93mdk93...the reason most of us recommend using cat 3 cable for voice is simply because cat 5 or cat 6 is total overkill. It does cost more, takes more time to terminate vs cat 3...plus, 9 times out of 10, if you put everything on an 8 pin jack, someone will plug their phone into the data jack or vice-versa.

no, i totally understand using the correct termination (as i stated previously) - in fact, i made a CG eat crow just last week because i came in to do an install and he'd wired the entire place with RJ45 jacks and simply labeled the odd numbered jacks for network and the even numbered jacks for voice. i explained to him how a short on the wrong pair could blow my ports and he had to agree that it obviously wasn't the correct way to do it. he'd never even considered it before and until i brought it up, had never been called on it either.

but seriously, i haven't found there to be a significant cost difference between CAT3 and CAT5 and we don't have room on our trucks for a decent amount of each kind (we keep 3 boxes of white and 3 boxes of blue on each truck, which is sufficient for most of our jobs). in addition, i really like knowing that i can re-terminate voice runs to use for data should the need arise.

i was just curious if there was a technical reason i'd overlooked. i take a great deal of pride in my work but i also have to do this in the real world and make a profit, so in my mind there are more compelling considerations to weigh than just a hang-up over perceived 'overkill'.

P.S. - it was the "should never be used" part i was questioning, which isn't the verbiage i would choose without a functional reason for the statement.

just my Irish nature, i s'pose.

Here is how I see it. You can run a 2 inch pipe to every faucet in your house to supply water, and spend more money, but why do it when it only needs a 1/2 inch pipe?

And here's how I see it: If that 2" pipe costs, say, $0.25/ft and the .5" pipe costs $0.22/ft, why would I bring a half load of each to a job that needs a full load of one or the other, but I may not know which one I need until I get there. The customer pays for it and doesn't complain, and I have enough gray hair already..

The customer doesn't mind paying for my materials, but he doesn't want to pay for my fuel. I love what I do and I want to do it right, but I'm not going to spend MY money just to make a point. You dig?

I haven't priced out cable lately, but when I did there was definitely a difference between cat 3 and cat 5e...

hey, i'm in the heart of Amish country and the first joke i heard upon moving here was: "how was copper wire invented? by two Amish men fighting over a penny!" believe me, people around here like to save money like they think the Treasury is gonna stop printing it tomorrow.

but if that's all we're on about, i'd be willing to bet that i can make a case that CAT3 costs MORE to install than CAT5.

How do you figure? If you are talking all cat 5e, all on patch panels, then I might agree. But if you are talking about running cat 5e to 66 blocks, then no way. Yes, I have seen people do that.

but seriously, i haven't found there to be a significant cost difference between CAT3 and CAT5

Obviously you don't use plenum listed cable. That's all we use because most of our work is commercial in air handling spaces. CAT5e is almost twice that of CAT3.

You also have to consider the termination time. You can't deny that CAT5e, because of it's tight twists is more difficult and time consuming to terminate, particularly on 66 blocks but even with 110s and jacks. Longer termination time may not be an issue with a few terminations but it is a definite consideration with larger jobs as is fatigue and repetitive motion injuries.

So it just doesn't make good sense to use CAT5e (and up) except where it is needed.

-Hal

I will bet that shiny Amish penny that you can't make that case... now, as Gary Winston said "Surprise me, challenge me, defy me!"

From your statement, I get the feeling you don't often see CAT5 terminated on 66 blocks. Around here that's what we find probably 90% of the time. You get pretty fast at it too with enough practice..

You are absolutely correct, Hal. We don't even keep plenum in stock; it's ordered as needed, which is rarely.

And I totally get what you're saying about termination time on big jobs. For most of our jobs, we're not doing enough drops to make a big difference.. I get it though.

Why does talking cost justification with a Mac guy seem like a bad idea? =) (just playin - we do Mac too, although not a lot)

I'm no accountant but the thought behind my admittedly hyperbolic statement was factoring more than just material costs. Space on the truck costs money, space in the warehouse (or converted barn, in our case) costs money, freight costs money..

I've been doing our purchasing for about three years now and still don't have all my landed costs worked out.

Hal makes a great point about repetitive strain injuries too.. with the absolutely obscene cost of healthcare in the US today, that alone probably negates all the things I've been considering by an order of magnitude or two.

Good food for thought, gentlemen. Thank you.

I heard the same joke, but it was two jews, not amish....

religious jokes are the new ethnic jokes.

My point is that it is much faster to terminate cat 3 on 66 blocks than terminating cat 5 on 66 blocks.

:rofl: good one

I am guessing since your reasoning is shipping and space, that you do small 1-5 cables at a time type of AMC jobs that are mostly data anyways?

i have no problem giving you the point on that. it's even faster to terminate cross-connect wire on 66 blocks.

well, no. our business is primarily small(ish)telephone systems and we often wrestle the cabling jobs away from the sparkies and bored CGs. our average job is under 50 drops, equally voice and data. say, two 12-port vertical patch panels, four 66-blocks, six 89Ds and a handful of mushrooms.. =)

however, i've taken more accounting classes than i have technical and even as anal-retentive as i am about doing things correctly, i'm always doing job costing in my head. our margins are slim but adequate as long as we don't confuse our objective, which ultimately is to turn a profit. as we grow, it's increasingly critical for our practices to be scalable (not to mention competitive).

that's the whole reason i'm asking questions: i want to be very careful not to lose sight of how things should be done when i'm making certain we're not losing money doing our work.

I've done voice and data for decades and really do not see much of a difference between them. Ethernet over Twisted Pair was developed to utilize existing voice telephone cables. I've run LAN connections on the violet pairs of a 25-pair cable feeding a 6-button KTS phone. No Problem!

I haven't started yet, as there have been delays, but I'm installing a roughly 200 position call center. Everyone gets a quad-4 ... four 4-pair "RJ-45" jacks to be used for whatever: corporate LAN, DSL LAN, digital telephone, single or multi-line analog telephone, even lamps and switches. All the cables will terminate on patch panels in the equipment racks. Each floor position laid out vertical on four 24 position patch panel.

The rep's phones are on an Avaya whatever. The lines from the Avaya terminate on connectorized 66 blocks -- running the cable involves attaching a pair of 25-pair connectors. Supervisor lines are local Centrex analog and arrive from the 1.1 on tie cables that I actually had to punch down. Both will be cross-connected to either 2-w jacks or 8-wire jacks, depending on whether or not they only use pair one. These 66-blocks are also connectorized, and Panduit makes both 1 pair and 4 pair connectorized patch panels.

In the equipment rack I'll be mounting (with some variation):

24 2-wire patch jacks (1 ru)
24-quad-4 floor cables on patch jacks (4 ru)
48 port LAN switch
24-quad-4 floor cables on patch jacks (4 ru)
48 2-wire patch jacks (2 ru)
24-quad-4 floor cables on patch jacks (4 ru)
48 port LAN switch
24-quad-4 floor cables on patch jacks (4 ru)
24 2-wire patch jacks (1 ru)
24 8-wire parch jacks (1 ru)

95%+ of all patch cables in the equipment racks will be 12" tip to tip running vertically between the LAN switch and a floor jack or a voice patch and a floor jack.

Talk to some of your suppliers and you will find that they are not selling Cat 3 and that it is a special order. Just got off the phone with these 2 suppliers - All Per 1000' Pricing
IE - Graybar - Cat 5E Riser *******
Cat 5E Plenum *******
Cat 3 Riser *******
Cat 3 Plenum *******

El Supply - Cat 5E Riser *******
Cat 5E Plenum *******
Cat 3 Riser $not available
Cat 3 Plenum *******

you will still find Cat 3 at your HD or Lowes but I am told in my area that it will not be stocking it when they run out.

We have been using Cat 5E for voice for the last 4 years and found that the cost is a fraction more. We always use Cat 5E 8 pin for Data and Cat 3 4 pin for voice. There is a little more time to terminate on a 66 block, but very little if you have an experienced tech who is used to cutting down large number of cables. We also use white cable for voice and blue for data unless we have a request for a specific color.

Just my $2.13 cents worth.

Cosmo

Edited due to forum policy violation regarding posting of pricing in public areas.

Rick, you might want to shop your suppliers more. There is quite a significant difference in the cost of C3 vs: C5, about 20% here.

And the difference between CAT3 and CAT5e PLENUM is like 50% or more. If CAT5 costs you a fraction more then you have been paying too much for CAT3. Try dealing with some telecom supply houses, they stock CAT3. Only reason Graybar and others no longer stock CAT3 is because they cater to the sparkies. "Duh, gimmie a box of CAT5, ya know dat blue wire. Gotta wire up a doorbell and thermostat."

-Hal

We just went through the warehouse here and found a ton of older cat 5 utp and stp cable. We are going to be using that for voice runs to use it all up.

Hal, have you had issue with Graybar not stocking voice/CatIII? As we still order it from our Graybar in Columbus and haven't had any mention of an un-stocked item.

The cost is MUCH cheaper than Cat5e and we have always used it for voice.

so true , so true :rolleyes:

(probably wondering if they should really be using cat6 for that doorbell...future and all )

I just ordered a bunch of CAT3 from CSC day before yesterday with no problems whatsoever. I did request gray and they only had white in stock at this location, but other than that, I've never had any trouble getting it. It's also a good 25-30% cheaper even in small quantities.

I did speak with my rep at Target distributing that same day and he told me that they are not stocking CAT3 anymore, but only due to low demand. I guess I won't be buying wire from them anymore.

We usually buy 20K to 50K feet at a time. I look around for the best pricing every week. Graybar, Electric Supply / Data Com, New Tec, Target and a few others. I guess here in central Florida there must be a little difference. Most of my suppliers are from Tampa, Miami, Orlando, Etc.

Yes Hal, Graybar does cater to the sparkies, but we have been dealing with them for over 20 years and have had a great relationship.

I work my rep weekly and sometimes daily for the best pricing on wire. I have found in the last year I am pricing wire from 2,3 or 4 sources to get the best pricing, shipping is also a consideration. Some companies will ship for free if x amount is purchased and some won't.

Thank for listening,

Cosmo

Graybar is our primary supplier and they have all the CAT3 you could want, 3 and 4 pair. I like them because they are a 1 stop shop usually. I can get whatever EMT stuff I need at the same time I get the datacom products. They will work with you on pricing for large orders but you can do better, that much is for certain.

CG=Cable gods

CG=Cable gods

In their minds maybe.

-Hal

This CG is no Cable God. in fact anytime I can learn from a phone guy, I'll watch and learn all I can.

where's the photos of good work?

way off topic

yeah im a computer guy who anytime i see a phone guy i try to get as much experience from them, even if its working for minimum wage on weekends just to get some knowledge

The remodeled space in all concrete, all open, all white and main paths are exposed surface, consisting of:

• 127 Cat 5e
• 3 RG-6
• 1-6 AWG Ground Wire

Yeah, but how come no curtains on the window? :db:

Now that is the way to do it.

<3 techflex. If you don't mind my asking, why do you ziptie the outside of the techflex?

We had to install split-tube due to cables "T-ing" off.

You should post that photo by the rack so people know what it once looked liked before the CG's totally destroyed it.

Nice work!

(disclaimer: I'm a CG)

I agree with pictures of the rack...I always take pictures after doing the job right and post them next to the equipment. I find that if people think someone else gives a heck, then they are more likely to do it right.

As for patch panel vs. non-panel, I'd say it depends on the environment. But doing it to save money is probably almost always foolish. What does a patch panel cost? Compare that to a 66 block. What does a 6 foot patch cable cost? What does 6 feet of cross connect cost?

(that said, I really like VoIP - but it sure ain't cheap, and it needs people who actually understand how it works - who are thus hard to find and expensive to hire; you definitely don't save money this way!)

I thought cg=cable guy!

Sorry you're mistaken, Larry=Cable Guy.

The customer wanted me to install a new voice/data network.

The first two pictures are what it looked like before I started, and the final picture is my install.



And a Close-Up



After:

Wow, what an improvement. How come they are always willing to pay to do it right the second time?

What is that wire coming out of the wall just above the electrical outlet?
I think I spot the phone jack from your other post

Correct Jeff. It's the same location.

I had intended to run all the cable inside the wall, however I discovered that the at one time the wall had a window right there...it was just "framed in". Thus the little sticks of raceway to work around the blockages.

This bid job was site unseen and 250 miles out of town.

"Take what you think you might need."

I would have used a long flex bit through the mudring below and through a larger hole behind the rack for the runs that go up. Or a new mudring can be cut in 6" above or below the blocking to allow a standard auger access to drill through. Cap it off with a blank plate or the owner can have the hole patched. Looks better IMHO than a raceway going halfway up a wall.

This is what I was curious about...

Yes, that was "Customer Installed"

Here's 3 of a switch I completed this week.




Just need to heatshrink the end and done.


But in reality, higherups called for braiding the cables, which I have no pictures of. I hate braiding cables.

Also, please note that that mx80 is supported by a 0u shelf on the bottom, only able to secure with two screws on the top. Bottom holes were covered/occupied by shelf. there's another relay rack in back of the front relay rack supporting the back end of the equipment.

Good job Badcable.

Here is another picture of how it should be done:

Nice work Dean! :thumb:

Where does one get that ladder frame? Is it the same as the Western Electric framing?

Joe

Nice work, Krone blocks?

Yep Krone. This is a Community College setting, and it was impossible to capture the entire room. The picture is about 1/4 of one wall of the IDF.

I must admit I was an intermitten helper on this particular job. It's just the quality of work our company does on a regular basis.

I believe everything was CPE (except for velcro, wrap and j-hook).

The ladder frame was from our local electrical contractor supply house.

Is that TechFlex on the wires?