sundance-communications.com/forum Forums VOIP Phones & IP PBX VoIP & Cloud Phones, Hosted PBX, General IP Phones VoIP Phone System Questions

Hello,

I am new to the forums. I need some non biased information though…

The company I work for has 10 employees spread out across the US. The base office will have a dedicated T1 line for a VoIP small business communications server/gateway. We had a few companies come out and look at and give us estimates and all of them tell us different things.

Company 1 offers a NEC Aspire S hybrid system and is who installed our first phone system. They insist that we must have a 300 dollar router with QoS and 30 VPN channels on the offsite employee’s side in order to share their internet connection. Most of our employees only use the internet to check emails and look up information on the internet.

Company 2 said that we would not need routers with their 3com system but the price was almost 3 times as much as company 1. I don’t think he wanted to do the job so he inflated the price. He said he was reluctant to install a phone system with no control on the other end.

Company 3 offers a Samsung iDCS 100 phone system that would not need routers. He also stated that the phones could be plugged in before the router. He seemed confident the system would work without any major problems. He said you could put QoS routers on there but there shouldn’t really be a need just tell them that they shouldn’t be downloading bit torrents or movies over the internet. I laughed…

Company 4 offers a Nortel system and we are waiting to get back with him but it was in the ball park of the Samsung system.

Which system would be the best? Are VPN routers needed? How much of a security threat is VoIP?

If you have any helpful comments please leave them. Thanks

Leaving the rest of the questions for when I have more time....

Run far away from Company 3. Anyone that says you do not need QOS routers on IP for voice has not done it before and does not know that you WILL have issues with it.

Steve

Well is it true we need a VPN for each VoIP?

Steve,
I may be missing something but, I don't think they'll need a QOS router. If they have a T-1 just for the phone system, there want be a need for QOS. Right? Since there is no QOS on the internet, and they have no data traffic on the T what would you use it for?

VPN routers? I wouldn't think so, if you have a static internet IP for the phone system. A VPN would be more useful if the employees are connecting to a server for PC applications.

For most VOIP system you need VPN for it to work. However, Tadiran makes a device called a sentinel that gets you around this of course you have to use a tadiran system to make use of it. BTW, run away from company 3 they haven't a clue. The VPN gets you by the NAT tranversal problem with remote users and provides security.

there are several scenarios depending on how you want to implement the voip portion... seems like you have have a simple router then switch network. my recommendation: you can do without QOS and VLAN if the NIC in the PBX has a public IP(before the switch comin off the router).

I hate to say it but I need to pipe up. Company 3 is giving there respective product a bad wrap because they don't know any different. The system can work and will work without QOS or a VPN. That really is not the point.

QOS=Quality Of Service should always be in place period. But like NFC said you don't need the QOS if the T1 is not used for anything but the phones.

Since we are making suggestions. I would not look at the product as much as I would look at the vendor. If the vendor is and has been a good one for you I would stick with them, They know your needs and you know there work. There are too many "vendors" that cant stay the course and when you do find a good one they will be like an old friend (always there for you).

As for product for the most part they are all the same with the exception of a few features that you probably wont be using. My pref is in this order Samsung, Nec, Nortel, 3com. There are others but since those are what you listed I will assume that those are the only systems in your area with Dealers that are local to you.

Interesting. We have lots of Vodavi systems that are either networked or at least have remote phones via IP with no router at all. We just put a small switch in ahead of the router, connect our card there and assign our VOIP cards a static IP address. It's been working fine this way for us for two years.

Our local service provider told us that their network doesn't even have QoS, so it wouldn't make sense for us to invest in equipment to provide it. I guess it's the weakest link in the chain thing.

I've done what Ed reported also when the router didn't support QOS. Little Linksys switch in front of their router. Not the correct way but it will work. Of course many manufacturers will not support your install if it's not done per their specs.

put the VOIP NIC in front of the data LAN and you shoould be fine. however, some IT guys would rather have everything behind a firewall... thats where the trouble begins.

That's exactly why we keep our stuff in front of the router and LAN. To keep it out of the hands of the IT guys. They might know their stuff, but they don't know ours.

Well, time for an IT guy to chime in

I have also setup the switch in front of firewall and it does work well. For the most part (read MOST PART) QoS means squat for the same reason listed above IF the install is planned for correctly. I have NEVER installed VoIP solutions using the same connection as the data at the main point. That is where all the traffic is.

As for the remote users, QoS router could help them as they will ikely use the connection for both data and voice. This will be something you will need to think about and warn your users accordingly. Otherwise you will see major issues with remote users.

As always, choose the right vendor (though thats always not easy). Also I woudl recommend lookign at hiring an IT firm to "consult" on this project. They often have better knowledge of routers, internet protocals, etc than do phone guys (remember i said OFTEN!).

We do numerous consulting jobs for other phone guys that are lookign at VoIP as we have more knowledge and experience on high end networks, VPN, frame links, QoS, etc.

In short, do research, ask losts of questions, and choose a vendor you are comfortable with.

P.S: Hope i didn't offend any phone guys as I am both an IT guy and Phone guy. Sorry if I did, not my intention.

Well the samsung phones have a built in 2 way switch. Meaning that someone could plug the phone into VoIP phone, then have the ethernet chord go into the DSL or Cable modem.

Company 3 said that we wouldn't necessarily need the QOS or VPN routers with them just checking emails and transferring files small files. That's on the other end. However, we would probably need one here in the office.

After reading the replies I am not sure if that is how you guys were looking at it or not.

All of our employees will still have their house phones.


Okay company 1 (NEC Delaer) said we would need a VPN channel for ever single phone to connect to all the other phones. He said, "For every phone to connect and not for it to be conisdered long distance you need a VPN channel." So if we wanted every single person to be able to dial a quick extension it would have to be on a seperate VPN channel. However, he also stated the employee could take the phone with them to a hotel room and be able to use it. Would the employee have to take the 10 channel VPN router?

Company 2 declined the job...so 3com is out of the picture.

Hillyard, you could use the soft phone for the people on the road and use windows to VPN to the network.

I am just getting a lot of conflicting information from the vendors. I am wondering who is offering me the best service.

VPN's are required?

For the NEC Aspire..yes otherwise they will not recieve support from NEC. Like I said, the only company I have ever seen offer a firewall system that gets rid of VPN is Tadiran. Otherwise you have to expose your system directly to the public network...which is not always a bad thing and I have had to do it before because the IT staff was not good enough to configure a router.

Should we have VPNs going to every phone?

I like the Samsung system personally and am waiting to hear back from the local dealer. Our choices around here are kind of limited.

Do you guys have any things that I should pay close attention to?

Here are some questions I came up with.

Do you see a problem with DSL or Cable connection on their end?
Concerns about voice quality?
What happens if we implement this in and the voice quality is horrible, what will you guys do to try to fix it?
What all different variables do you guys see as a problem?


Things that are a given

22 of 24 channels of a T1 Connection dedicated completely to the VoIP Phone System
VoIP Phone System
8 Dedicated phone lines to the system (not part of the T1)
10 employees with either cable or DSL connection
I sent a survey out asking how their connections were and if they have routers now or not.
I know 5 of them don’t.

Welcome to the internet and VOIP. You asked the RIGHT questions.

Over the internet voice quality cannot be guarranteed.

You will need a routers that prioritizes the voice traffic for the phone..they are cheap routers that will do this for people at home. That is if they use their broadband for computer and phone.

Voice quality is amost a 99.9% network issue. Going over the open internet there are no guarantees for VOIP. I use a voip phone at home and have good luck with my connect butthat isn't a guarantee. Run away from ANYONE that says they can give you 100% voice quality over the open internet. VOIP system have a hard enough time with redundant networking and dedicated networks.

VOIP phone system OR a hybrid?

ShoreTel IP-PBX has a couple of solutions for remote workers.

1)Remote worker VPNs to the main office and tells the system the telephone number that they are located at (could be home phone #, hotel room #, cell phone). (Incoming Call)Call comes to the main office...system recognizes the telephone number that they are at located at and the call will ring to their home phone number. Caller at home can see on their PC that this is a business call and answer the call appropriately. (Outgoing Call) Home worker dials number on PC...phone system at main office calls the home worker....phone at home rings...remote worker picks up the phone....phone system initiates call to the dialed number. Pro's & Con's...Pro's....Toll Quality Voice.....No VoIP what so ever....Con's...Need enough phone lines at main office....perfect solution for small business with PRI.

2) Softphone....Software VPN needed for remote worker....If customer has T1 for Internet only this should work. Need router at main office...Kentrox good solution

3) Hardphone...Hardware VPN needed for remote worker...Expensive solution depending number of remote workers. Need router at main office

"Which system would be the best? Are VPN routers needed? How much of a security threat is VoIP?"

OK. The reason VOIP connections could need VPN is because many manufacturers don't support NAT traversal on both ends of a VOIP connection, which is exactly NEC's issue. VPN's DO NOT improve VOIP performance at all, they are a way for the data packets to traverse the public network w/o NAT. That is all there is on that issue.

QOS only helps you if there is a 'Queue' of data packets waiting to be transmitted anywhere on a network. If you use compressed voice on yer VOIP T1, you will have no bottleneck there, so QOS will do you no good. QOS on the client side adheres to the same rules.

To get around NAT and the need for VPN, many vendors place the VOIP interface on a 'DMZ' or public network. The downside of this is security. Do you want yer PC on the public network? Probably not. Are alot of PBX's getting hacked right now? No. Will they in the future? Who knows, but I would play that pretty conservative if I were you.

"What happens if we implement this in and the voice quality is horrible, what will you guys do to try to fix it?

Fix what? The internet? Please... Anytime you put voice packets on the internet, you get what you get.

"Do you see a problem with DSL or Cable connection on their end?"

Of course. Cable is the worst service you can use. Most cable providers use an on/off method of limiting bandwidth, so when a users upload b/w goes too high they cease transmittimg packets until the b/w average comes back down. Not good.

Correct me if I'm wrong superfoneguy, but I would think that a VPN would actually make the voice calls worse given the extra overhead of the VPN encryption. I have no experience in this, so I'm curious if anyone who has seen this could tell me.

It does seem to me that putting a phone switch on the public side of the network is a bad idea.

You are correct. VPN cuts into bandwidth.

Bandwidth is going to be alot of the issues with quality on this one. We install Samsung, 3Com and Tadiran IP and it works behind the firewall as long as you open up the correct TCP/UDP ports. And there is a sufficient amount of bandwidth. Some IT managers do not want to open up ports on the firewall so the only way around that is to go outside the firewall. Keep in mind though that a VPN connection creates alot of extra overhead, in some situations it could be as much as 100kb per phone conversation.

That's what's cool about Allworx--no VPN and no port forwarding to get through fire walls. They have a true plug-n-play teleworker solution.

^ I was just going to post that, until I saw you did. Thanks Antony.

The best voip-phone-system depends on your budget and setup:

NEC Aspire S (Company 1): Requires VPN routers for remote users, adding cost.
3Com (Company 2): No routers needed but expensive.
Samsung iDCS 100 (Company 3): No routers required, easy setup, but QoS may help.
Nortel (Company 4): Similar pricing to Samsung, awaiting details.
Are VPN routers needed? Not always, but they improve security and call quality.
Security concerns? VoIP phone systems have risks (hacking, eavesdropping), but encryption, firewalls, and strong passwords help mitigate threats.

For a balance of cost and efficiency, Samsung or Nortel seem like solid choices.

Now here's a blast from the past! If only we could go back to 2006 and buy these systems.

We keep thinking we're going to post rules of use or lock old threads. On our side of the world, we don't have Samsung, Nortel, NEC, and 3Com. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3Com

Now we have Grandstream, Yeastar, Vodia, Microsoft Teams, Avaya, and any system with either a Session Border Control built in or VPN. There are a few cloud based offerings (that you get by clicking on your link) or search for premise based systems.

Since this is your first post to this group, I have modified your post to remove a link to outside vendors that you can find by a web search. We may let the rest of your post stand, but please try to be more relevant to the times and not post links to outside sellers.

Carl

Is there any part of the world that has these systems?

Hosted man! That's a premise based system....just not yours LOL

In some obscure world, you might be able to import an NEC from Japan. We did have a thread that said Mitel may still be doing something with a system, but it's probably going fast.

Vodia has an offering with Fanvil that lets you run 2 wires to a location and power IP phones (Fanvil brand). I think they have TWO models. https://www.fanvil.com/news/2024/20240710/8951.html

Since Crissy went back to work (part time, like me) it might be time to try one of these bad boys out.

Oh yeah, retirement is boring when your hobby involves sitting at a bridge table.

Carl

Funny how busy you get after you retire. I started a second hobby path after I retired now old clients are calling saying can you......... The people we brought in can't fix it and say we HAVE to go hosted. My stock answer if you have the money, I have the time to look at it.

Be well John807