atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums Wiring - Telecom Carriers - Trunks & Services Outside Plant OSP Construction buried splices-xaga etc

looking for feedback from former/current telephone cable repair/splicers. I'm cable repair and don't care for buried splices at all, seems like all we do is dig them up. Engineers are placing fixed count terminals, factory splices etc. Having difficult time getting upper mgmt to understand it cost more money, more time, customer dissatisfaction, etc etc. just wondering if any of you guys have the same problems in your area, or if possible someone has found a solution......

I have never been a fan of buried splices. Usually, when a cable gets cut, the only correct way to repair it is to splice twice. Cuts are never clean and the damage usually extends several feet. In these cases, we try to place two pedestals if the site conditions will permit. If not, we place one pedestal and one buried splice (and make a note inside the pedestal how far away the buried splice is).

We have always used 3M Better Buried closures with re-enterable encapsulant and have not had problems with them. They are a lot more expensive than most. Those XAGA closures are a joke to me, they almost appear to be something "home made", just a bunch of tape and sleeves. I have dug more of those up than anything, and they are usually full of water.

Cablegirl..you talk full circle. Northwestern Bell tried the dedicated service 25 years ago and abandoned it for the very reasons you've mentioned. Just this one thing will drive you nuts....located the drop..oops forgot to bond it in the splice, now what? Believe me we had a ton of that, when they first started they were even told NOT to bond the drops at the splice, the ground at the house was sufficient, they didn't think about locating it later.

A properly done buried spice with a good encapsulant is fine. When the company's try to go cheap or the splicers try to hurry and leave voids and air pockets in the encapsulant is where the troubles are. We had a buried splice closure (moons ago), that was the tops, never had problems, that Ma Bell in her wisdom went with a cheaper expandable encapsulant, used it for several years before they found out it was like a sponge to moisture. There's my 2 cents.

By the way Ed welcome back, I was afraid no one liked me or I'd forgotten to shower. :confused:

My two cents ---

Spliced with the pink sponge that Bell thought would work,

Spliced with what Contel liked ---- green hard epoxy by 3M like electricians like,

Spliced with an expandable "honey" made of two parts that United (ne: Sprint) liked,

Azaga was almost okay for aerial PIC, not for lead or lead-to-PIC even thought it was SUPPOSED to work, and s%*ked for buried.

Of course, you can't beat LEAD! best there is.

Who bought out ComTech? They made good, inexpensive acrylic tube-type expandable closures and the "honey" as well as bonding braid, bonding clamps, and other OSP products.

Yes, avoid buried splices, dedicated plant, or "Telecom Engineers" (re: experts) but sometimes you have to dance with the devil. That's when you have to do the above.

Good luck,

KLD

Aerial splices - buried splices, they are all part of the business. It is nice to throw a couple of pedestals in to avoid buried splices but practicality very often does not allow it. I think what happens to the splices most often is that the installers do not, as mentioned above. do the job properly. 3M Better Buried closures with re-enterable encapsulant are definitely the route to go as their product is very robust and the kits come with everything required. Usually problems occuring with buried splices are simple and could be avoided by the splicer taking time to ensure that the job is done correctly. By all means avoid a buried splice as often as possible but be prepared...there are too many cable locators (backhoes, trenchers, post hole diggers)out there.

Telcomtex is very right about the 3M Better Buried line. And the 3M 4442 (3000 gram) or 8882 (6000 gram) compound is very good.
Just put two of them in the ground Wednesday morning and it now has eight inches of concrete over it. Do you think I needed to be real sure it was right? You're dang right I had to have it right. That's why I used the 3M combo. But you need to furnish your own bond clamps.

This was a Gov't job, needed to be end to end tested, inspector okay the splice before the closure was poured and before it was covered. When it got cut late Monday --- git 'er done. Got material ordered, start Tuesday morning --- wait, we want it this way. Re-order material, swap tooling --- get 'er done. Then wait for the inspector. Get 'er done. Wait on the inspector. Poured after his tour was up. Called for inspection next morning at 0700--- get 'er done. Inspector showed up 1000 and we covered it. GOT 'ER DONE !!!

And they can't understand why they can't get contractors to work on base for small jobs like this.

Also it had a azaga that we cut out where it had been cut and spliced before. Ever see one look like a goat's bladder leaking red wine?


KLD

Yep, that was my sentiment in my original response on this post. I have never had a problem with BB closures and 4442 encapsulant. I am not worried about the $2.00 worth of bond clamps that aren't included, but I can imagine that someone inexperienced might not stock them or know to order them and simply make the splice without them just to "git 'er done". Since 3M makes them, they really should consider including them in their kits.

I gotta tell you. Those XAGA closures amaze me! Nothing but a bunch of tape and sleeves with a shrink-wrap tube over the whole thing. They just seem so "home-made". When you look at their installation video, I swear that there are 30 parts involved, all that require a human thought process ("don't stretch this too tightly, don't leave this loose, don't forget........"). Too much room for error.

Spend another ten bucks, buy a 3M closure and walk away (in half the time) knowing you won't be seeing it again.

Amen, Brother Ed, Amen. Now pass the plate for another set of BBs to put on the shelf.

KLD

I once saw a bb with encapsulant on top of a roof.
The customer had problems with the lines to the other building. I ask the customer if I could go up on the roof. Sure enough, I found an underground splice on top of a hot sunny roof.

Who ever did this?
I would like you to know that this stuff is made to be underground only. The sun will degrade the encapsulant and then water sets in. This took repeated service calls to find this out. It almost got to the point of repacing the whole cable if I didn't take the time to look on the roof to solve the improper splice. Ed makes a good point of making two splices for any underground break.

Anybody here ever use the “down & dirty” temporary splice kit?

You know, the one where you Scotch lock the pairs together and bond the shield together with stripped cable and shove the splice up a tube of silicone’s butt?

Yep, about five times, just use scissors to cut the butt end off of a tube of silicone caulk. Only problem is that in order to do it, you need to have two splices (or should I say tubes of caulk) and five feet of cable to create enough slack. I hate to think of the temporary pieces of cable I had to use that became permanent. They ranged from jumper wire to IW cable. We didn't actually carry direct-burial cable on the trucks at the time, so it was never done right the first time.

Obviously, I did this just for a temporary restoration. We were waiting for approval of our proposal for the correct and permanent repair, but were never called back. I think there is a lot of temporary wire and tubes of caulk out there, exactly where I left them. They are buried and safely out of sight.

I only did this on 2-6 pair cables.

I am still ashamed to admit it today.

My company policy now is 100% permanent splices or nothing at all. Since most cuts are 6 pair or less, we just keep the proper stuff on the trucks and avoid the risk. Somehow, with a temporary repair, the customer forgets to call you back to make the repair permanent, yet they can remember to badmouth you five years later when the temporary splice you provided (and got buried) fails.

I thought your were suppose to slide a piece of PVC over one side and then make the spice. Then you put the silicone in the PVC.

Oh well, I rarely spice anything underground. When we bury anything (rarely) we always use conduit. If something is cut, we pull out the old cable, fix the conduit and repull a new cable. But of course, we're talking 50-300 feet. Not miles.

LoL Only if you wanted a pretty splice. I have done this type of stuff if I was in a bind and rain was in the weather forcast but only as a temporary measure. Like Ed said, some customers wanted to let it ride but I always managed to talk them out of it. I'm not sure if the little "pancake" splice kits are much better than the "down and dirty" method to tell the truth. I guess the advantage is that the shield gets a better bond.

wow. i'm watching those xaga install videos. what a pain! how long does that really take?

Jeff: See what I mean? Wrap this, stretch that, torch this, don't torch that. The product may work flawlessly when properly installed, but with all of that manual labor and judgement required, there is way too much room for error. It would be one thing if they were less expensive, but XAGA closures actually cost more than most other brands that are much simpler to install.

what about the splice cases I see on the poles, I take it those are much easier to work with?

Jeff:

Most likely, the aerial spices you see in the air these days are 3M (as in Post-it) SLiC series closures. They are barrel-shaped with "mason-jar" type clamps to keep the halves closed. The are a cylinder that is split down the center and at each end is a rubber (neoprene) grommet that is clipped with scissors to match the cable diameter. Some of these closures actually allow as many as three entries of cables per-end.

Inside, they have a fixed bar with braided bond tails that are attached to clamps attached to the cables' shields. The beauty (and popularity) of the 3M closures is that they come completely assembled, as in one-piece. In aerial splice work, this is a huge benefit because if you think about being on a ladder and dropping a part......

Well, you can imagine the benefit of a one-piece unit.

Pressurized cable uses different closures, commonly known as "waffle" closures, because despite the fact that they too are cylindrical in design, they have external webbing to provide reinforcement (against internal pressure). This webbing looks like the square pattern of a breakfast waffle. The difference in these closures is that the ends are sealed, as well as the edges to retain cable pressurization. They are basically airtight, and for the most part, watertight as well. 3M also pretty much holds the manufacture of these closures since they purchased PSI Telecom, the company that had been making them since the mid 1970's.

There are plenty of other manufacturers of splice closures out there, but practically all operating companies have standardized on these brands.

Some use Tyco Electronics' (formerly Raychem) TRAC series closures. Yes, these are the same people making the XAGA closures, the start of this topic. Bell South still uses them heavily, but I can't understand why with the intensive labor and risk for error. That's another day, I suppose.

What drives me nuts is seeing old cables hanging off the wire, pairs dangling in the air. Also I notice a lot of times the techs lean their ladders up on the cables to work on splices. Seems just a little dangerous...

Jeff, I know it looks dangerous, but the cable support strand is actually the safest place to be for someone using a ladder. Even mid-span, placing a ladder on a strand gives both legs of the ladder a solid place to rest.

Placing a ladder on a pole results in an unsafe condition because it can twist back and forth due to the top rung being the point of support. Ladder manufacturers came up with canvas pole straps that straddle the top end of the ladder rails that have a rubber pad to hug the pole. Great idea, and they kept the ladder from flexing as much, but still, not desired. Today, you will see that telco's ladders have hooks at the top end of the rails that actually hang over the support strand. That way, if something goes wrong, the top end of the ladder (and the technician) will be supported by the strand.

You might notice that Bell companies (or what used to be Bell companies) always place their splices and terminals far enough away from the pole so as to allow a ladder to fit between them. I think that about 24" is the minimum for terminals and about 48" for splices. This added distance for splices permits room to place two ladders, allowing two people to work a splice. I can't say for sure, but that makes sense to me. A typical ladder is about 16" wide between the rails.

Back to the strand supporting the ladder. Believe it or not, a 1/4" support strand is rated to support 5,500 pounds. That's the smallest strand size used on distribution cables. The next sized strand, being about 5/16" supports a whole lot more. They even go up to 3/8" for the really big cables.

Leaning a ladder against a cable support strand is probably the safest place to lean it. Despite how precarious it appears, it's the best thing to do. Don't forget that until the 1980's, splicers had benches, similar to picnic tables that were supported by the strand so that two could sit face-to-face working a splice. They just secured the corners of it to the base of the pole with ropes so it wouldn't tilt. I think that OHSA pretty much nixed that practice.

Now, if you see anyone leaning a ladder on a drop wire, that's another story. Call 911.

Jeff,

The old RA (Ready Access) terminals / splice closures were easy to mess up and not get back together so they were a mess.

Terminals were cut in within 18 inches of the pole (or 24 inches of the gain bolt) but construction splices were normally 36-48 inches from the pole (bigger the cable the further out due to bend radius).

GTE in some regions used to require 5 feet from the pole as a way of keeping installers out of the cable! Then only splicers with a cable ladder (later bucket trucks) could reach it and not destroy the splice.

As far as using cable ladders on strand --- no big deal IF it is equipped with cable hooks. Some have a cable sling to hold the ladder under the cable and you could attach a "diving board" onto the ladder to stand or sit on while you worked. If the equipment is properly equipped and secured it is about as safe as sitting in your local bar.

Seeing as you brought up safety, ALL telephone work is hazardous in some way or the other. Heights, overhead power, confined spaces (manholes), pulling in contorted positions, up ladders, using power tools, yes, work can be hazardous. Find an old outside plant man without hemroids, who didn't ever smoke, never drank coffee, never burnt a pole, and never dropped a tool from a pole, ---- well ---- either he's the luckest person alive or a good liar.

There is an old saying "There is no such thing as an OLD dumb lineman". If you aren't smart enough to be aware of the dangers, you won't live long enough to get old. Lots of old time lineman can vouch for that --- just check for the missing pinkie finger that the winch line squeezed off. that was their warning.

Have a great evening,

KLD

Ed, you type faster than me --- 5/16th inch strand was considered strain rated at 30M pounds of stress by most companies.

I wish I had back all the time I worked on a cable ladder --- I'd barely be able to vote!

:toothy:

KLD

And you were suppose to test the strand before you used the ladder. Also the aerial access terminal location was the working distance off hooks. In the good old days the boss would actually go up and measure all the dimensions to see if you did it right. I had a boss who could look up and tell you within an inch what the distance was and if the first spacer was right or not. He'd gig ya for anything more than an inch out. Never got gigged cause I always measured, that's just the way we did it. I never saw him go up a pole, ever.

Most observations about suspension strand are correct. I will add that threr are basically three sizes used in bell outside plant. They are called, 6m, 10m, and 16m. The "m" being thousand pound tension. Math people out there will be confused by this, as they learn to "k" for the thousand multiplier, but that's the bell way. There are two more sizes, 2m(called peanut strand), and 32m. Peanut strand is mainly used between buildings, and 32m only as a head guy for 16m strand. Just a little old time lineman trivia. Let me know if anyone has come across anything different in outside plant suspension strand.

I am VERY VERY new to this whole process, and by all means am no splicer at all. But I can vouch that SWB and ATT HEAVILY use buried Xaga-Splice Closures.

infact its my job to come in and dig up the splice for you splicers to come do your work.

From what I understand im with an established telecom company and they are new to the splice pit digging, seeing as I have only a supervisor and 3 other employees besides myself.

besides that, Im eager to learn, and move up out of the pit digging into whatever i can do.

I figured its worth it for me to sign up here and poke around!

any other dallas area telecom workers?

Hi, Ry1400!

Welcome. We are happy to assist you in moving to the more technical side of this industry, but you need to understand that it's not learned overnight. There are some moderators here with over 40 years' experience who still don't have an answer for everything.

I have never been a big fan of the XAGA closures you mentioned; way too much work for such a simple procedure. The fact that you are digging them up raises another question, but I guess it's already answered.

Hang around here, you will pick up on a lot of things. There are a bunch of Texans here.

thanks alot ED!

the XAGAS are just being dug up to cut pairs dead, north, south, east and or west of whichever particular pedestal. from what i understand of it all.

i realized today that my company has the finances but the high ups have no knowledge of how to run it(outside plant construction anyway) We have opened 21 pits of a 27 pit job, and i found out today that my company hasn't called for any locates(gas,electric,cable,water....) they seem to think that since they are hand dug pits, that it isn't necessary. thank god the splicer brought it to my attention, they have a lot of things to work on.

I feel as if i could run it better, and to make matters worse... my supervisor called it quits today....

I love the field of work, but are all these kinks in our operations common? we have a CRAP locater its a "cable hound" or something, and all it does is beep.

ive seen the ones that give you depths and all that before you dig, wheres the love boss? haha.

i am gonna poke around this site for a bit.

thanks for the warm welcome!

-Ryan

Ryan, all I can tell you is that it's against the law to put a shovel in the ground without having the utilities located in most (if not all) states. In VA, there's a $10,000.00 fine assessed to any contractor caught doing so.

You cannot and should not rely upon a cable hound to perform locating. So much piping, especially gas, is plastic and some was installed before metallic tracer wires were included in the trench.

Sorry to hear about your supervisor. Maybe he has just been having the same feelings that you are but a bit longer. I don't know what to tell you about upper management since I know nothing about your company, but you have to be concerned for your safety and those around you.

That is exactly what my buddy/roommate/coworker told me, he was pissed. It made us look bad, and honestly embarrassed.

The high ups in this company seem to think that they know best, they were constantly coming out and "mirco-managing" and changing what the on-site supervisor had set.

I do know that I am interested in this field enough to want to keep doing it. I am a fresh 20 years old, and eager to get the ball rolling, If I found the right opportunity I would even relocate.

Splicing seems interesting as well. Although Ive only seen the XAGA closures.

This is my second week in this field, and the company has driven away our supervisor... IN 2 WEEKS!

Im starting to get that gut feeling that something may not be right here, but I am clueless as what to do.

of the 21 pits that are open, me and my roommate have dug 13 of them.

do you know of a site that lists the laws dealing with the utility locates and also that of pedestals and the radius of the easement around it?

Nope, I don't have one, but your state's public utilities commision does. Don't forget that rules also change from city to city or county to county. You should be able to find the location service's number on any pedestal or transformer in your area though. Maybe they can point you in the right direction.

It's nice to see that you have such a strong desire to do things right.

There are plenty of members here from your area who might be able to assist. They probably will chime in, but with it being the weekend, I wouldn't expect any responses until early next week.

Keep up the good work and ethic. Copper splicing won't be going away anytime soon, but I wouldn't start my career in it. While it's true that copper will probably be around after you are long-gone, you have to keep other options open. Obviously fiber optics is the best area to explore.

You are off to a good start. Take the punches and learn as you go. Don't hate the bosses; they are working with people, investors or customers who may be telling THEM what to do. Just be careful and don't risk your life or those of others.

Here's a start:
https://www.texasonecall.com/law.php
https://www.onecalltexas.com/

thanks guys!

I just think that its a huge fault of the company that they hire me and not ever being in this field before, I am the one, along with my roommate who has done it for 3-6 months, that are telling the highups what they are doing is illegal, and could bring enough lawsuit to bring the end.

This project started on the 22nd, the supervisor came in from houston, and all these problems have arised.

okay im off to a birthday lunch.

Here in California, even if you have locates done you're required to handdig within 3 feet either way of the locate. But past 6" underground I wouldn't be slamming a shovel or a pick into the dirt, especially since you're already in a utility right of way.

One thing to remember if you don't locate - most electric lines are 240V from transformer to house, minimum 7200V to the transformer. (Ouch!) Gas lines, especially in the right-of-way, are high pressure and don't like sparks from shovels hitting rocks.

This thread is old as dirt (no pun intended). Let's start another one if anyone is interested in doing so.

I decided that I like the field, and im going to continue in it....

but im getting my job training through the military.

United States Coast Guard, Rating of IT.

shipout february 6th.

going to get my head on straight, and save some money.

wish me luck!

Good luck! Excellant choice!

I have heard of people using the tube of silicon for a "backyard" splice, but isn't there a chance of the acetic acid in the silicon causing noisy or intermittent connections over time? I think it would take years for the silicon in the middle of the tube to cure properly.

Yes, the acidic properties of silicone caulk will break down the integrity of the splices AND the insulation of the cable pairs. Use of it is strongly discouraged for encapsulating splices.

https://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-w/training/CG-132/CG-1322/trapol/IT.pdf


this is a sort of scoring sheet that lists what you will need to know with the rating of IT

i was wondering if one of you guys could look it over and tell me how well i will be equipped to work in the field after getting done with service.

Well that is IT and most if not all of us here are telecommunications techs...so we do not really do the network side.

The scoring test seems to have a lot of the same questions asked 3 times 4 diffrent ways.

About 5 years ago when working for a CLEC I went to a farmers house who had static after a nice Kansas rain storm. He had two lines at the house, he had a four pair running from the house to a guest house and a four pair running from the house to the barn. The trouble was not on Bell's side so it was for me to fix...lucky me! I narrowed the problem down to the four pair between the house and the barn. The farmer came home and asked how things were going. I told him where I stood on the issue. He looked at me said come this way. He walked to a specific window on his house took 20 steps toward the barn and we started to dig. Right there was a 12 gauge shotgun shell filled with wax and the "home splice" that he did 35 years ago! Dolphins won't last near that long.