atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums VOIP Phones & IP PBX Cisco Telephones and Systems CISCO IP PHONES

Well, I think the city thought after spending a cool million on it's Cisco it was going to have to live with it. What you fail to understand is that in the real world T1's do not function with 100% reliability. I suppose if you are a small customer with a few remote sites, you might have rolled the dice and have no issues. In the REAL world with large systems and multiple carriers, you could tweak your routers till you were blue in the face and EVERY time a T1 had an issue it would cause your phones to reset. The issues with interfacing with existing legacy equipment that is analog. To each his own but I look forward when I go into a bid against Cisco or any totally IP system.

You know what I am tired of hearing? "ABC Manufacturer's IP phones work great with 99.9999999999% uptime as long as the network is configured properly". Yeah?, well my car can go 120 miles per hour as long as there's no traffic.

Yes, it's true if I run dedicated home run CAT5 or better to a dedicated switch and keep the VoIP running separately, then VoIP will likely work flawlessly, hands-down. It will work as well, in fact probably better than TDM systems. Bandwidth brings a lot more capabilities, that's simple to me. But at the same time, doesn't this contradict the whole concept of IP telephony?

OK, so how do I explain to Joe Insurance agent with ten phones how he will benefit by spending twice the price for his equipment AND even more to bring his network to the point where it is "managed and more robust". Oh and even though he paid me two years ago to wire his office with a nice network using quality hardware and cable, it's still not good enough.

Give me a break. Apartment complexes are managed and wine is robust. Fancy words only make food on a restaurant menu seem like it will taste better. Throwing fancy words in this environment is like gold plating a rock. IP phones are a remarkable accomplishment, but when their limitations (or should I say vulnerability) in a less-than-perfect world prohibit their "99.999999999999% uptime", then they DO have major limitations.

Give me a system that doesn't require 100% perfection in the wire, yes I said wire because that's the customer's perception of that jack in the wall. They have no clue that their switch that they paid $500.00 for two years ago isn't "robust" enough to be "managed".

Like many people around here keep saying, when it works without such restrictive limitations, then we'll all be jumping on the band wagon to sell it. Until then, none of us with any sense of sanity are going to risk our businesses and reputation on yet another "Johnny Come Lately", especially on it's third turn at bat.

Think about the sensationalism around aluminum wiring and PB plumbing for residential construction, leaded gasoline to reduce engine knocking, birth control implants, Krazy glue, asbestos insulation, you name it. All sounded like marvelous solutions that would benefit everyone. These products were the proverbial "latest and greatest" and if you weren't using them, you were missing the boat. It didn't take long to realize that the manufacturers were banking on hype, not longevity or reliability of their product. And look who is paying for their short sightedness now.............

IT guys and manufacturers seem to think that IT problems allow for bottomless bank accounts, three-times the the cost for the hardware purchase and a lifetime of patch and upgrade costs. Maybe that is the way the computer industry has always been. It hasn't been that way in the phone business.

The telephone industry was formed around companies that rented equipment to end-users years ago, so it HAD to work well in order for the phone companies to turn a profit. Every month of equipment rental without maintenance issues resulted in a profit. They worked hard to make sure that their labor practices and their manufacturers got it right the first time. It worked well for a very long time.

However, the IT business seems to expect the general public to understand that it is a "work in progress". If it doesn't do what we told you it will, just pay us for a patch or upgrade and we'll fulfill our commitment and it will even be better. We aren't dealing with AOL issues here, we are dealing with customers losing business.

Until the two technologies can compete and eventually converge (really converge, not just the IT buzz-word), then this subject is simply a comparison of lemons and limes.

As usual, I have taken a subject and written a novel, but with hopes that maybe we can start thinking about making this thing work. It has potential, but not right now.

ED,

I agree with you entirely. It seems that the world has grown used to the ever problemed world of the computer and the cell phone. To most users of a computer if it is slow, you live with it. If a cell phone drops a call you live with it and call back. Unfortunatly this is training the general public to accept problems in technical things, including the telephones. It is funny how the true general reliability of TDM telephones and the general un-reliability of IP phones have morphed into the literature or propoganda that all manufacturers put out. The so called "99.9999% reliability" that is found in TDM has been taken to IP, but not in the same meaning. TDM phones are their own network - something that many people have a problem understanding anyways, but to put an IP system in and then not have them on the same network well, that is even more confusing. Sure the IP sales person will tell you they can be on the same network, and they can, but that will open a whole other can of worms if your network is not "robust" enough, and it probobly is not.

Lets be real here; most companies under 100 phones say things like "this year we are upgrading the comuters, next year we are looking at the phones." They simply do not have the budget to do an entire overhaul of their network and their phones. Yes you will find one here and there, but not enough to run a good business on. That is why it is easy to poke holes in full IP systems, the customer cannot run a new network and do phones; but they can buy a real hybrid and do IP when they are ready - on their terms, not to mention when IP is relly ready for the main stage.

IP will be a great thing, and within maybe 5-10 years at most it will probobly be the #1 product in most of our portfolios, but not now. There realy are huge problems and downsides, to much so to run an entire business on. Until IP has the user reliability of TDM (which is not 100%) it will not be ready for joe insurrance salesman that WILL NOT tolerate any problem with his phones.

I have a problem even believing it will ever be 100% with some of the IT hacks that are running networks out there. There are so many things that can affect VOIP phones on a network that is not proprietary it's scary. That set aside I have had great success with remote offices and networking systems together. VOIP is an unforgiving beast whereas TDM is. That being said, I am now going out to sell a new VOIP system to a new customer that won't think of putting in a Hybrid. It's costing him 2x as much and since we aren't doing the networking I have some prtty papers for him to sign negating my responsibility on sound quality issues. What a weird world.

Exactly my point. How many times have you run into a regular voice CABLE job that was done poorly? I have run into this a lot. There are a million and one "IT" guys out there that can run a cable and put in a router, but they know nothing about a real network. Forget those guys for a minute and remmeber that a great portion of the 25 phones and under systems are going to have the computer networks managed by someone in house, perhaps a son/daughter of the owner, or just someone that kind of knows what they are doing. You can get by like that for a data network, but putting phones on it too will undoubtedly cause problems.

If a customer wants to have a full IP system that is fine, but they have to understand the limitations and the pitfalls that could and probobly will happen durring the install and for a month or so after. Great idea with the papers though.

Geez, I'm glad I don't tech where you guys are, sounds like you have a ton of issues with your carriers and cable contractors. Good luck with that.
Ed, I understand what you say about IT guys, I'm not an IT guy but I have witnessed it myself.
I started teching in Colorado and New Mexico installing and maintaining Fuji's, Telrads, Mitel and Inter-tel systems.
Now I'm pretty much stuck on Voip with just our smaller key systems here and there remaining.
While yes a voip must be properly configured and your network must have a good infrastructure. The same holds true to traditional systems as well. Your cable must be so good, your system must be installed and programmed correctly or else you'll have problems. It's no different, AND when comparing this cisco to the old technology systems our AMC issues have dramatically went down. AHA! That is why you guys hate it, no more AMC calls, oh-oh, there goes your profit. ;o)
coraltech
"There are so many things that can affect VOIP phones on a network that is not proprietary it's scary"
???????
this is why you have VLANS, one for voice and one for data.
I'm not trying to bust balls, in the end, voip works and just as good as any other system I've worked on. My opinion and my experiences. Anyways to each his own guys! Good luck with those T-1's constantly going down and bad cabling.

Hate what dw? My business is SOARING fixing IT hack VOIP jobs and ad-hoc networks. Yes VOIP works, I have been using VOIP since 1997. I simply cannot see why you would sink your teeth into a total IP solution when you could get a Hybrid cheaper and have a win/win scenario. MAC work? I think that's what you were refferring to with AMC. Hardly get that at all with set relocation features on digital pbx systems and voip phones nowadays. I make my money on application/service. I am working right now getting SIP trunking up and working with a provider to sell as a package...but I can still use digital sets as well. Yes, those obsolete phones that run on a single pair, have more features, can run 2500 feet from the system (powered). It's rough....

Met with a customer today about upgrading their system. When I mentioned the upgrade would allow VOIP features if needed, the lady got a frightened look on her face and said "an upgrade won't require us to replace our digital sets with VOIP sets will it?" The way I see it, it doesn't really matter how long we bat this back and forth, the customer's reality or perception of reality will be a major factor in the speed in which VOIP is adopted. If I had tried to convince this lady that VOIP was the way to go, she probably would have sent me packing.

The myth of hybrid IP-PBXs..Traditional phone companies talk about migration stories. As part of the migration story, these legacy PBX vendors proposed IP gateway cards to facilitate consolidation of the network and to have voice paths available over the IP network. Thus eliminating tielines between sites now you have an IP enabled phone system.
The next phase in the legacy PBX migration myth involves the mix of IP phones that are needed as incremental growth is incurred. The IP-phones will need a seperate IP-based server in order to accommodate the new devices. As growth continues (and the legacy PBX continues to age), the story will continue to unravel, only after the customer has made significant investments, with the end of software development on the legacy PBX. Customers will be forced to forklift the existing chassis, and once the forklift upgrade is complete, they will be left with the same infrastructure limitations they had with their previous legacy PBX model. An investment protection story with the manufacturers best interest in mind...not the customers.

Progolf- do you really understand what a hybrid is? Every system I sell that is a hybrid does not require a separate IP server for IP sets. A simple blade is inserted into the cabinet for IP set functionality. A blade for SIP or IP networking too. If there is a myth here it's that VoIP is right for everybody and every circumstance.