atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums TDM Business Telephone Systems Avaya - Lucent Telephones & Systems End Of The Line For The Partner ACS?

Has anyone heard any rumblings about Avaya establishing a timeline for the end of the Partner ACS?

I just read a post (I will provide the link if anyone is interested) where the vendor was told by his Avaya rep that unofficially the R7 is the final release and that the Partner ACS will be out of production by the end of 2010.

It really wouldn't surprise me if that is true.

They closed out one of the best systems to ever have a power cord with the Magix.

I too have heard the Partner may be short lived as they are putting all R & D in IP.

I don't have a clue about the timeline, but if I recall correctly, the Partner family of systems has been around since about 1988. That's a pretty impressive run for any product in my opinion. I think that they are making yet another mistake, but hey, what do we know? We are just phone people.

Here is the link. (1043 reveals another possible reason why the Merlin Magix was canned).

https://tek-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=1300207&page=1

(I made my feelings known right after 1043.)

I would like to see Avaya offer some sort of a traditional telephone system for those who would not be best served by a VOIP system.

Yeah, I don't sell Partners but I make a lot of money replacing them so this does concern me. They have always been a good 5-7 year system for customers with minimal requirements. They are doing what they should; giving the life expectancy that any phone system should.

I might add that you can buy a computer today and within a year, what you end up with outdated equipment. At least with Partners, you don't receive laughter when you needed something more next year.

If it does go away for good, it will only be after many, many years of hard service. There aren't many systems out there that can boast that (at least without starting a battle).

That would be a big mistake. Costwise the Partner system is a hard sell for many customers as it is. The IP Office, for the same number of seats is much more and at minimum requires a PC to administer it.

Unless Avaya drastically reduces their prices or introduces another low cost TDM solution I think they are going to lose the small to medium size business market.

-Hal

My supervisior doubts there will be a revision 8, but we kind of doubt that the Partner will stop being made...

Maybe another manufacturer will take up the platform...Or it will be replaced by something else like Intertel did with Executone (by Alcatel maybe...didn't they buy out Avaya or something?)

Regarding Executone and Intertel by the way, that is what I understand happened, but if I am wrong, please let me know...

Hal brings up an interesting point.

It seems like support for the small business market is slowly eroding. Providers (service and otherwise) seem more interested in going after the multi-million dollar corporations than looking after the "little guy".

The rumors & speculation that the One-X will become the replacement for the Partner may end up being true after all.

My guess is that the One-X will also take the place of the partner. When that will happen, who knows...

Just looking at the One-X what's in it for us? Pretty much a plug and play KSU-less system aimed at end-user installation. If they have a network simply plug it all in and plug in the phone lines.

Expect the One-X to be sold at Staples and Home Depot.

-Hal

Staples and Office Depot already offer them.

Bingo!

So if the prediction about the demise of Partner comes to pass Avaya will be out of the small business market- unless you are fortunate enough to find one with deep pockets.

-Hal

Come on Ed,.........you know better than that.

5-7 years is just a good break-in period for a Partner system.

If a Partner system is properly installed, you can easily get 10-15 years out of them.
And might add that the Partner is one of the most feature robust systems for the small business market.

I agree, Mike. That's the key....If they are PROPERLY installed. They always, I mean always looked like something that came out of a blender that was hung on the wall in a 95 degree boiler room around here. If they aren't properly ventilated, they crash and burn. I guess that holds true with many other systems though.

We will need to discuss your last sentence in private.

Sounds like Walker Communications Inc, needs to open a office in the D.C. area.

We could call it Tel Walker.

Mike, if you end up in Washington, rest assured, we won't be worried about phones anymore.

:thumb:

Mike and Ed you are both right. I worked for Lucent for ten years (before they went down the drink) and installed everything from a Spirit to a 5E. The partner is the best little system on the market. I would put them up against any system out there.

About a year ago I got a call from a friend that needed some help moving the phone system to their new building. Yep it's a Partner and I installed it 19 years ago. If someone is only getting 5-7 years from a partner system it was installed wrong. Check the grounding on the system, that is the number one thing that takes out the ports "BAD GROUNDING"
Cheers

Well, maybe. How are you going to ground a system using a two-slot carrier? While I agree that they are decent systems, it wasn't until the ACS came along that the Partner became a real contender in the market with features. Even most of this system's current features have been available on other systems much longer.

The Bell System/ATT/Lucent mindset kept pressing on with their thoughts that the customer "will get what we have to offer" and it will work. They did it very well and it worked everywhere they went. Honestly, I miss that.

The Partner systems aren't quite the same anymore. Not to mention that if anyone buys a small system and actually expects more than 5-7 years out of it is fooling themselves. Technology evolves at a MUCH faster rate.

Just a side note: We never ground our systems; this is just another path into them for trouble. As a matter of fact, it's the grounded ones that give us the most trouble. Grounding a system that has a physical connection to the grounding pin of the KSU's power cord is actually not legal under the NEC. Even the term "grounding" is improper terminology. Hal might be willing to share some of his experiences on this issue.

Hey... Now you got some folks scratching their head.

I know where your going with this.
You are correct Mr. ED.

Take the ole VOM out and do some research for
yourself guys.

Be careful dont blow your ksu up, but Ed is right again again.

You dont want a ground loop on your system, you
want a clean power outlet. Read the specs.
Do some serious installing and think.
Ask yourself a question. Is this done right, or is it done the way I've always installed these units? :confused:

If the Partner is discontinued say in 2 years ,
there should be enough product in the supply
loop for 6 more months.

Followed by partners available from migration
to go to the refurb market there should be product for another 10-12 maybe 15 years.

If there not grounded as Ed advised they should be around for a very long time.

Just an observation ........

The past 5 years or so I have removed from service a few Merlins and several Partners, and two (if I remember correctly) ACS.

None were grounded and all except for one ACS died due to power / lightning issues. I service a Partner in a body shop that is mounted directly to the metal building. I added an UPS/surge on the AC, gas protection on the COs, and had a ground added from the unit to the power ground. They are doing road construction in front of the place and they are moving the power poles. Constant power issues. He has lost air compressor motors, lights, you name it. He has lost computers and other electronics but not even a blip on the phones.

Did I do wrong?

Ed, whether you use a 2 slot, 5 slot or standalone makes no difference. You use the same line cord and the ground connection is a green screw on the processor itself. That supplemental ground is more a UL/NEC issue because if the line cord is pulled it leaves the system ungrounded and the premises wiring floating, possibly at the same potential as the CO line wiring that is also on the system.

I have written about Partner grounding several times. Because the designers dropped the ball by not connecting the green ground screw within the module with a piece of wire directly to the power connector ground at the rear of the module, (instead they used a common ground trace on the PC board) any difference in potential between the line cord receptacle ground and the supplemental ground can destroy the module. That's why if you do use the supplemental ground (and I pretty much don't) it absolutely must be connected to the same point as the line cord ground. You can't trust cold water lines, building steel, etc. as the Avaya documentation suggests. There might not be a problem when you install the system but I've seen processors destroyed several years later when things change.

As for the general longevity of Partner, I regularly see systems (Partner Plus and Partner II) over 10 years old. Matter of fact I see National chains like Old Navy and Crate and Barrel using refurb Partner Pluses and MLS phones even for new installs. For most small business even the older systems provide more features than they will ever need.

And no, I have not noticed any decline in quality of Partner (with maybe the exception of the phones) that would lead me to believe that a new system, properly installed, wouldn't last 10 years or better also. Matter of fact I believe that the power supplies that were the usual cause of a modules demise have been improved and the 5 slot carriers now provide better heat dissipation than the original.

It's very true that much depends on the environment and the steps taken to protect the system like protectors on the CO lines and a surge protector on the power. Of course much depends on whether those are quality devices and installed properly too.

-Hal

Well said Hal.

Can't help but comment on 2 lines from posts above.

"Well, maybe. How are you going to ground a system using a two-slot carrier? While I agree that they are decent systems, it wasn't until the ACS came along that the Partner became a real contender in the market with features"

The Partner, from near day one of introduction in 1990, has held the #1 marketshare position in the United States. #1 is a real contender in my book.

"Followed by partners available from migration
to go to the refurb market there should be product for another 10-12 maybe 15 years." At least... think about how easy it is to still get Merlin system parts. Long term parts availability, even if refurbished, is what makes this brand (even through 3 names) great.

My local competitor (Sells Vodiva now, formerly sold Executone) tells anyone with a 10 year old system "Sorry, can't get parts anymore." regardless of wheather it is true or not... just to sell a switch.

Because the ACS continues to do very well in the marketplace I doubt that Avaya would pull it soon without a viable replacement.

Its like saying the Toyota Camary has been around for so many years, we are sure Toyota is just going to stop making it. Why would they do that when they are selling so much of it?

The Partner is a great system that will probably be around for many years to come, in my opinion.

I'd like to offer a few thoughts about the unofficial timeline and see what others think.

Avaya says that they are looking at the end of 2010 for the Partner's retirement (about 4 years from now).

From what people who are familiar with the One-X have posted, the system does not expand as much as the ACS. There are a few operational quirks mentioned as well.

My W.A.G. is that Avaya chose 2010 thinking that the 4 year cushion will give the company enough time to tweak the One-X to the point where it could replace a Partner ACS system of any size.

If Avaya has indeed released many of the employees that worked with traditional telephone systems, the chances of seeing a new traditional telephone system to replace the Partner ACS are slim to none.

Doesn't that seem like a long time to work out the bugs?

Richard

I guess it probably is. It was just a thought. :shrug:

Actually nothing you say surprises me. Just look at Avaya's track record lately.

1) The ACS R7 is a disaster.

2) The Transtalk became a disaster. They have no cordless solutions anymore other than a little 2 line. (Yeah, I know they have some WiFi versions for the IPO) They are all overpriced to boot compared to say Panasonic.

3) They haven't updated their Partner promotional literature in years. They have a new line of phones and literature still showing the old ones. How long have the Series 2 phones been out now?

In short Avaya is becoming an embarrassment for anybody trying to sell it. I'm tired of making excuses to customers who want cordlesses, about the literature, about why we don't use the R7.

If they want to discontinue the Partner and push the One X and IPO fine, but I can't sell that crap. My customers don't want it!

As far as I'm concerned, if they don't want to put any effort into the Partner they should pull the plug now rather than ruining everybodies reputation with their incompetance.

-Hal

Hal, those are very harsh words but I feel the same way, Avaya either needs to sh-t or get off the pot. I to will not sell the One X or the IPO as they are crap and there are to many other products out there that blow it out of the water and actually work right.

You two want to become Vodavi Dealers? :p

Strange. Bell Labs with all it's history and expertise can't get it's act together. It's like saying Ford can't build a car.

Richard, it's not Western Electric or Bell Labs anymore. That heritage was thrown away long ago. I don't think Avaya manufacturers or even designs anything. Where IS the IPO made? From what I can see it's made by some British company for Avaya. Avaya just puts their name on it.

-Hal

I was at Avaya labs a several months ago to meet with some VP's and engineers to discuss "future plans" for my company. It appears that in the future Avaya will only sell software and no hardware. When you go to buy a new phone system, you will get a CD and nothing more. You will source your own server to run it on and you will source your own SIP phones to use. This seems kind of strange at this point, but it appears to be where Avaya is going.

Here is what I think of Avaya's future plans:


If Avaya does go through with this plan, troubleshooting problems will become real interesting.

Where do I sign up for Vodavi?

I think we should retitle this thread "End of The Line For Avaya" because that sure looks like what's happening.

-Hal

I dont see One-X on the web sites....

Hal, if you are serious, send me a PM. They need dealers in your area.

I agree when the IPO first came out, it had it's fair share of bugs.
But now with 3.2 it seems to be very stable. And 4.0, from what I gather, is going to be even better.


edited for spelling

We will not even look at selling the One-X right now, but the IPO has been pretty good for us.

I also think that SIP trunking is going to change the phone business in a big way. Not sure if for the better or worst but it is coming like it or not.
The days of the small key systems for your local parts store is short lived. And sadly to say your local parts store is too.

Hal, you do a disservice to all Avaya Business Partners. The Avaya IP Office is not "crap". I've been doing this since 1992 and the Avaya IPO is simply the best platform for the small/mid-market that any company has ever sold during that time. This platform is extremely reliable (29,000 hour MTBF on the hardware), software upgradable for free from Avaya, supports TDM and IP in both extensions and trunks, provides SMTP unified messaging for free, has a 3 year warranty, ...
Avaya has given us a product that competes very well against Cisco and Nortel. With this product my company is able to do 1 to 2 (200-300 extension) deals a month. Its developed by Avaya's IPO group in the UK and manufactured in England and Ireland. Of course its supported by thousands of people like you and I with real jobs here in the US. My #1 hope is that Avaya will release a 424 version supporting 720 exensions extending the product family and giving my company another tool to win business from growing companies.

Ipanema,

I have to agree with Hal. AT&T (not the new at&t), Lucent, Avaya, all have a pedigree that used to be (being the operative term) a leader in the industry due to the historical link and the technological base that produced some of the world's most advanced and rugged equipment known to man.

The rugged dependability reminds me of the old 1A2 equipment and, at first, about the same level of features. As time went on it advanced but still retained the basics as features were added. Heck, (Off Topic) the Spirit systems were easier and quicker to sell and install. But Avaya won out with the Partners.

The IPOffice offering --- well, not many of the customer's in my area will touch it. Cost, constant maintenance, and "it just won't work". In my market most customers do not have an in house IT guy to baby sit a system.
People like to be comfortable. IP is outside their comfort zone if they don't wear a pocket protector.

Bankers, being conservative, have jumped on to the IP market due to the branch banking being tied to the main office. Data equals voice and all in one place. It also means one lost, all lost. Now they are NOT happy.

Seeing as I have hijacked this thread, it is not only Avaya that has a problem, most manufacturers' are leaning in that direction. Avaya is by far the farthest behind (or is it ahead?). Customer support of existing equipment is ridicules. Why would you wait 3-5 days to get a Partner repaired, 7-10 days to get a MAC? So the "Business Partners" are brought in to cover the Avaya short-fall. While most are good, well, it isn't the same as when the product producer, the installer, and the support were all by the same company.

Now IP is the catch phrase to make everything "OK". Wrong. Several car dealers and banks (all owned out of the local metro area) have the IP solutions. The only people happy are the IT / CGs. QoS, downtime, poor equipment (no difference in brands here).

It is easy to sell TDM equipment in my market, almost impossible to sell IP, and Avaya doesn't have a clue how to support the small market anymore. The newest Partner new install in this area is ten years old.

So, in the 40 station or less market, will IP or TDM be the winner?

Ipanema, I'm a former Bell employee and I've been doing this since 1965.

Thread back to you.

Hal, you do a disservice to all Avaya Business Partners.

No, it's just the voice of reality. I give my customers what they need, not something I can talk them into buying just because Avaya says that's what I should be selling.

It's been my observation that the few Business Partners who do well with the IPO are IT companies to begin with and/or have several times more high pressure sales people than technicians. That should tell us something.

The guy who owns a small business isn't going to be quite as gullable as the IT department of a large company with deep pockets, so your boast of 200-300 seat deals falls on deaf ears. There are many times more small business out there than large corporations.

It's quite apparent that Avaya is looking to abandon the small business market along with their dealers and customers that have been the cornerstone of their business since day one. But then you wouldn't be able to appreciate this since you have only been in this business since 1992. I have socks older than that...

-Hal

we sell the heck out of the ip office, and have not had the huge issue volume that i hear about. we had some issues in the past, but honestly most of those could be explained by lack of experience, training, pc's that do not meet the specs, etc. if you do not do a network assesment then it is your fault if it does not perform. from my experience going in after other installers/programmers of the ipo, they[customer] think it is crap, until after i leave, then they like it. i do not think i am that great to change their opinion on their investment, unless the original install was the issue, not so much the equipment. it is certainly not my good looks.

I really apprecicate being able to glean from the wisdom of you older fellas...

KLD,
I notice you sell Panasonic, NEC, and Vodavi. No Avaya?
Of the three, which sells the most? I have not sold or serviced key systems in about 10 years. Back then they were fairly comparable to each other.

Why is that the more "data" oriented a person is, the less likely they are to be able to write properly? This Text Messaging generation is killing me.

Richard

Richard,

In reply, no one telephone system or even brand has all the answers to every client. Re: We'd all be driving Fords. (Insert Chevy, Dodge, etc.)

No Avaya. I can purchase from various sources, need no certification, and "best fit" not "Best Buy" my customers. Please understand my market. It is limited. It is the small (under 40 stations), privately owned market, not chains or corporations.

Due to pricing, the Panasonic with the hybrid ports has done the best, at this point. I no longer install them except at the customer's request. The NEC has more growth, and I am just getting into Vodavi. I am a "certified" Inter-Tel Encore installer and am working on acquiring the TransTel for the hotel I hope to bid this coming summer.

Ten years ago the "key" systems were very basic and similar. Today the features are similar with just a few differences or different in "how they get there". A lot easier today in some ways. Then again, ten years ago those systems were easier than the 1A2.

Sorry to have highjacked this thread. If you have any other questions, please feel free to e-mail me.

Please understand my market. It is limited. It is the small (under 40 stations), privately owned market, not chains or corporations.

Ken, I don't think what you said is off topic at all. Some people as well as maybe Avaya need to understand what we have been preaching.

-Hal

I am not an Avaya Business Partner nor dealer--but we have many Partners out there that we maintain.
This topic interests our company alot, and the decision by Avaya to go completely in another direction is of upmost importance to us.

Has Avaya mentioned any free training for their dealers? Do they have any "special pricing" to entice the switch to the IPO?? Just wondering.

If anyone is interested in seeing the latest Partner ACS literature, here is a link:

https://www.rstelecom.net/products.htm

Publication date for all 3 brochures is 2005.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Partner Voice Messaging come in 4 & 16 mailbox versions? The Partner Messaging document lists 4 & 12 mailbox versions.

Although it can accomodate 16 mailboxes, do the math. 120 minutes total storage, divided by 16 mailboxes, gives you a grand total of 7.5 minutes of storage per mailbox. Not a lot!. So it's always been marketed as a 12 box voice mail. You can set it up for fewer boxes and gain more per box storage.

And the phone brochure shows the discontinued 9040 cordless.

Hi TTT!

Given the limited recording time of the PVM, I can now see why they would say 12 boxes.

Yup, I see the reference to the 9040.

Semi-hijack: There are lots of ugly phones out there and they seem to be getting increasingly uglier. I haven't looked at the literature until now, but I couldn't resist using the links that Dexman provided. I have to say that the One-X phone is just about the ugliest phone I have ever seen. Remove the handset, add two white stripes and it could easily become a football. What's up with the trend to make the shape of phones into circles? Is is a case of "let's keep up with Cisco"? Are phones circular in Europe?

I would say that it is more evolution than anything else.

Today's cars (sedans for instance) have that melted bean shape while most cars prior to the 90's had a squared off boxy look.

The rounded telephone look will take some getting used to. I will give Lucent & Avaya credit for using rounded buttons on the Partner Euro and Magix 4400 series telephones.

Can't speak for others, but my fingertips are rounded, not squared-off.

(Earth to Nortel!)

I love the one-x phones. They are the same ones used on the definity platform. 46XX or the new 96XX. Paperless labeling makes MAC's so much easier.

In my opinion I would go with Avaya.

Last night, I scanned part of Avaya's 10-K filing from last week. The first 21 or so pages speak volumes of Avaya's future plans (much of which has been discussed in this topic).

https://investors.avaya.com/sec/sec.asp

2 points that stuck out like a sore thumbs are:

1) Avaya out-sources production, warehousing and distribution of its products.

2) Avaya is moving away from traditional telephone systems and betting the farm (so to speak) on VOIP, so the unofficial end of production target date for the Partner ACS seems like a done deal.

I had 1 more thought about Avaya's future before this topic can probably be put to bed. :rofl:

I that's the case I don't see anything happening other than Partner going away. The Partner was part of a line of systems from Avaya- Partner, Magix, IPO, Definity. Partner by itself would be an orphan, no other manufacturer would want it by itself since they have comparable products and unless they can add it to their own line. Also, no new company is going to want to invest money into a legacy system because of IP. So, my opinion is if Avaya has it they should keep it as long as it makes money. They outsource everything anyway so if they are losing money on this they have real problems no one is mentioning. Isn't that why Lucent dumped them?

I think the larger picture for all to realize is that Avaya itself is not doing well and they are throwing buckets of water off a sinking ship.

-Hal

The way I understand it is that Avaya was formed out of Lucent's decision to concentrate on producing Central Office equipment (such as the WaveStar).

I guess Lucent had 2 choices, sell off or split apart. So, they split the company and out popped Avaya.

If I could predict the future, I would speculate that the big players in telecommunication will fully exit the TDM market and go full bore into VOIP (Avaya is in the process of doing this and it is a safe bet that other manufacturers, such as Nortel, are watching).

To fill in the void, manufacturers from other parts of the world could market small TDM systems and such equipment would fill what will become a niche market.

Very good points on avaya. Lucent has been stuck in the mud.

Because each product re-design has an investment pay back time period, I would suggest that the Partner ACS will be around for some time. The original Partner, +. and II lasted nearly a decade. The MLS 5 years, redesigned, Euros about 5 years, and now the new version. They have retooled, redesigned, remolded, and are looking for a return. The R 7 is slightly different, but took investment to get there. Those who predict a quick pull out under estimates the need to recoup investments and leave money on the table... in short, they underestimate CORPORATE GREED.

The PArtner ACS will be around at least 5 years... maybe more. Too much invested, too great of on going rewards... too good of marketshare. Why pull it? It is making profit since R&D is already a sunk cost.

Yep, Partners are going to continue for years to come.

The curious thing is that the unofficial 2010 drop date is coming from Avaya insiders.

It has been reported that Avaya's ultimate goal is to stop manufacturing hardware and become a software provider. A company would purchase a router and phones, and Avaya would ship a disk with software to program various features.

I admit that I am an end user and not a CPE vendor so what I know is based on information Avaya Business Partners share on this and other tech help sites.

Avaya has had to release patches to correct glitches in the R7 and that is probably a first for the company (at least with their traditional telephone systems). I don't know if any other release in the Partner ACS or Merlin Legend/Magix families needed to be patched multiple times to resolve issues.

The R7 may very well be the final release of the Partner family and the Partner has held up well over the years. But to have it go out limping, as opposed to with a bang like the Merlin Magix, is sad.

Brian I hope you are correct because we have a lot of small customers that are not ready nor want IP.

But Avaya needs to get their act together on the new Partner R.7's and new style Euro phones or just drop them.

If it's OK, I'd like to join into this important discussion.

I'm not well knowledged with "IP", but I do believe that the IP Telephony train is gaining more and more steam...and Avaya is working to drive that train. As a Civil Service CO Tech, I recently noticed that Avaya has been conducting successful testing with Foundry Networks (along with Siemens, Cisco, and Sphere Communications), resulting in Foundry Networks being the first vendor to receive Department of Defense, and Defense Information Security Agency's full VOIP Certification ( article ). I wish I could offer input as far as the Partner Systems, but I'm not very familiar with them. I do think however that the small buisness customers will begin to change their way of thinking as the IP technology continues to emerge, and Avaya wants to be the "Go-2-guys" for these small business customers. Like with any other new technology, it's only natural for many customers to not want to switch over to IP, but I think (at least with some applications) these customers will begin to change their approach towards the IP market, as they observe various IP trends.

Well said.......Mike.

But we still do a lot of one man flower shops, auto parts, funeral home, local attorney, car dealer, pizza place, general supply store, gas station, tire shop, and general retail stores that doesn't even have a PC in the place. And IP is out of the question for the price difference to offer the IP Office.

Don't get me wrong the IPO has it's place and is a very good system,..........but not for everyone right now.

That's my 2 cents worth.

That's true..If the service is fine the way it is (and meets all the customer's requirements), don't change anything.

I love the partner best system I ever installed for people under 15 phones

Mdaniel hit it on the Nose.


"But we still do a lot of one man flower shops, auto parts, funeral home, local attorney, car dealer, pizza place, general supply store, gas station, tire shop, and general retail stores that doesn't even have a PC in the place. And IP is out of the question for the price difference to offer the IP Office".

This is so true and AVAYA will lose this market nitch to others who make key systems. Plain and simple.

I still have customers who won't change out there 1A2 Keys systems. why? Becuse it has workd for 25+ years. We must all relize that this business is also a craft related hobbie. Small businesses are resistent to change. If it works why change it? Not to mention the spirit systems at the auto junkyard business.... ect.ect ect and the Merlin's that are limping along. If someone didn't need voice mail I just might sell them 1a2.. Its funny how you still find the parts.

It's hard enough to get someone with an old Partner II or an older partner 1.O to change the Proc to a 308. and this is about 14 years old. Go figure the math.

I do think however that the small buisness customers will begin to change their way of thinking as the IP technology continues to emerge, and Avaya wants to be the "Go-2-guys" for these small business customers. Like with any other new technology, it's only natural for many customers to not want to switch over to IP, but I think (at least with some applications) these customers will begin to change their approach towards the IP market, as they observe various IP trends.

Mike, it's not a matter of changing the way they think or that's it's a new technology. It's like a guy going into a hardware store for a shovel to dig a hole and the store clerk tells him that shovels have been replaced by backhoes. He doesn't need it, he can't afford it. All he needs is a damn shovel.

Forgetting the pitfalls of IP for the moment, the basic problem is that until it costs the same or less as traditional systems, provides the same features and is as easy to administer, install and maintain there will never be a market for it in the small business sector.

-Hal

With the revolution of Ip systems you also in time merge to a generic IP software based competition. Where as, Ip sets become generic and you only have to buy a server,cards and user license. You will need an analog ring card on your PC with an 8x24 software package for 199.00 with rebate.

Where as, Ip sets become generic and you only have to buy a server,cards and user license. You will need an analog ring card on your PC with an 8x24 software package for 199.00 with rebate.

Server, cards, router, software, ISP, network wiring and phones plus someone to set it up and maintain it= $$$$$.

Compare that with hanging a KSU on the wall, running some cables to the phones and CO lines and forgetting about it.

-Hal

Thanks Hal & Station Specialties..especially for the part about the "shovel vs backhoe"...makes sense.

Thanks Mike, For all of us who scramble to keep service going from sticky buttons to the unimaginable.

Like Hal said, The customers washng machine washes the clothes. He might need a motor or belt from time to time. On top of it It's just a phone sytem that needs a nominal service and price to fix it,, and not two techs and a laptop at twice the rate to solve something that normally would never happen.

Hal, the 199.95 is the suckers starter rebate package and in result they should have bought a simple key system. Like so many other systems and ideas that come and go. People are audible and visual and like to see lights and the line on hold and co line #15 on all 50 stations if you know what I mean.

That's why I like these forums..alot of different, REAL perspectives,...not a bunch of "bells and whistles".

I can built bells and whistles without IP, Thanks Mike