atcomsystems.ca/forum Forums TDM Business Telephone Systems Avaya - Lucent Telephones & Systems Outside Cable Plant help!

(Moved here from Outside Plant since it's more of an Avaya-specific situation)

Where to start...I am an experienced cabler but am new to OSP. I consulted several experienced cablers on this project. I have run 1100' of 6 pair Superior Essex CAT 3 22 AWG in 1" Sched. 40 Conduit with 2 pull boxes. I have Circa 2606's on each end and IROB's behind those (LUC-146E). I have grounded the primary protection with 6 AWG at both ends (far end to the ground rod and near end to building steel and grounded the aluminum sheild with 3M 4460's to the second ground lug on the Circa primary protection devices with 12 AWG. This is for one Avaya Definity 6408 digital phone. The problem is the phone won't come up. I get around 47.6V on a multimeter at the far end of the run and the phone seems to try to come up but will not fully come up. When I first installed the primary protection (the IROBs hadn't come in yet) I was able to get the phone up but with heavy static only at the far end. When I put the IROBs in today I now cannot even get the phone up. HELP..I've read all the other posts that looked like they related but have not found any advice that I haven't already tried with the exception of testing the resistance of the ground. I have even tried using another port on the Definity. Any help would be much appreciated and seeing as how I'm into this job for about $1000 bucks would sleep better if I can get it completed!! THANKS!

Let me add some more detail. There are a couple more legs to this circuit. From the remote building the OSP cable is just shy of 1100'. It then transitions to about 100' of CAT 5. Then onto a 25 pair back to the phone room, about 350'. The phone works where cross connected to the CAT 5 (so at about 450') but when taken to the end of the OSP cable it's a no go..

I had the same thing happen with a Rolm switch (9000). We buried about a half-mile of 400 pair to feed a new building, but used 24 gauge since "industry standard" was all that was specified in the bid specs.

Phones worked like a charm right there at the cable head in the new building, but the minute we added a typical cable run, they died. We replaced the far-reaching station cables with 22 gauge and LUCKILY, everything worked out. Talk about cutting it close.

Sounds like you are in the same predicament. That CAT5 concerns me since it adds unneccesary conductor length to the cirucit. Any reason why you ran CAT5? It's not better for voice, in fact it adds a bunch of length to a cable run.

Why, oh why oh why does everyone think that CAT5 or higher is better? Using it when not required takes away valuable distance allowances. Think about it: Tighter twists=more length. Going from CAT3 to CAT5 alone adds about a half-inch of copper circuit per inch of cable!

It worked (kinda) without the IROBs because the IROBs have series resistance. Put those in and that was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Seems to me that you have a voltage drop problem but you say that you measure 47.6v at the far end with the phone connected? That's not bad considering the battery is 48v I believe. Simple enough to check though- leave the phone connected at the far end then take voltage measurements at your cross connect points going back towards the PBX. For reference, what is the voltage across the pair with a phone right at the system?

If it does turn out to be voltage drop, yes I would get rid of that CAT5 then I would combine 2 pairs of that 1100' run. Seems you only use 1 pair of the 6.

Another possibility is the wrong clamping voltage on the protectors you are using and possibly even the IROBs. What are Circa 2606's, what comcode or number are the IROBs?

-Hal

Gee, some of you guys stay up LATE or get up EARLY!
EV's comment about 'hidden' length is very well put. CAT 5 25 pair is available, but since each pair must twist at a different rate, the 25th pair, if straightened out, is TWICE the length of the original cable. I got bit by that when someone wanted several 10-base-T's and phones in the same place and a CAT5 25 pair seemed like a good idea. WRONG! We almost broke even on that one.
And, are not just IROB's adequate? Chances are, if they won't prevent THOR damage, more arrestors aren't going to help. John C.

What is the max distance for a Definity? Adding up the lengths you listed, you're at about 1550 feet.

In putting the CAT5 in the middle, which I'm sure is 24 gauge, you've reduce everything to 24 gauge. Just like water in a pipe, you can feed it with a 4 inch line reduce it to 2 in the middle and back out 4, but you'll still only get a 2 inch pipe worth of flow. Current works the same way. Double up your pair like Hal said, at least through the CAT5 and see if that helps. I don't know the range of these phones, you may have to double up the 22 gauge also and triple up the CAT5. Better yet would be to replace the CAT5 again as Hal stated. To see if clamping is causing this you could strap out all your protectors.

OK, the 100' of CAT 5 was already there and the circuit goes like this...Definity with 25 pair tails to 66 block....jumped over to CAT 3 25 pair going about 350' to another IDF 110 block...CAT 5 punched down to 110 block and running about 100' to the head of the outside cable...The primary protection are Circa 2606QC/QC with gas fuses 3B1E 350V (I did read in another post that I should us 75V fuses and can change those out on Monday). I cannot get rid of the primary or secondary protection. The primary is Code and AVaya will not honor the warranty without the secondary. I looked up the distance on a digital phone can go on an IP Office (I do not have access to the definity docs) and they can go up to 1000 meters and the Definity should be comparable so at 1500 feet this shouldn't even be breathing hard...Lastly, I'll check the voltage when I get there this morning. I had planned on doing that anyways but a very good idea...thanks for all the suggestions and

I was saying thanks for all the suggestions and I'll keep you all posted...

One other note. I have tried taking the IROBs out of the equation with no luck...

just found the specs for the phone. On 22AWG wire the phone can be run up to 5500 feet, on 24 AWG wire can be run up to 3500 feet so distance should not be an issue...

Hal, what do you mean by "clamping" and "strapping out" the protectors?

IROBs can be a real pain. Just for test purposes, remove all the IROBs and run the cable clean and see if you get the same issue.

have you tried bypassing the circa (for test only ) ?

I had issues on a panasonic two bldg install , worked ok if I bypassed the primary .

I called circa and they guy told me the right modules to order , worked just fine after that

Ok, I see who Circa is, I actually had the information. The 3B1E should be fine. I use similar all the time. You can go to 75v if you want if there is no ringing voltage.

Hal, what do you mean by "clamping" and "strapping out" the protectors?

Hmm, I never said "strapping out", I would suppose that would be replacing them with jumpers. Clamping refers to a protector going into protection, it will clamp the voltage at no more than it's rating. In the case of your 3B1Es that would be 350v. So, if the voltage on the pair exceeds 350v the protector conducts and basically becomes a dead short to ground "clamping" the voltage at no more than 350v.

And no, you do not want to permanently remove toe protectors or the IROBs. The NEC and Avaya require them.

In putting the CAT5 in the middle, which I'm sure is 24 gauge, you've reduce everything to 24 gauge. Just like water in a pipe...

Well, actually no. They would be series resistances and would add. It would all depend on the lengths of the respective runs and the resistances per foot of each wire size.

From what I can see you have a problem with the wiring here. You are certainly within the loop limit. Start by doing a voltage test at all points from the begining to end. Then I would check for grounds and resistance across the pair.

-Hal

Well guys, another 5 hours out there today. I tested the voltage at all points and it was pretty steady at between 47.6 and 50.6V. The one thing I noticed is that when I plug the phone in at the far end and watch the voltage it stays at about 47.6V and after about 10 seconds drops to 3.3V and after about another 10 or 15 seconds it went back up to 47.6V. As a test I watched the voltage on another port of the Definity and shorted out the pins on the 66 block and lo and behold the same thing. It seems like it is shorting out somewhere but the voltage holds steady at 47.6V until I plug the phone in..I have not tried to bypass the Circa but will tomorrow..btw skip555, which Circa modules did you end up using? I will call Circa on Monday...

Have you disconnected it from the PBX and with the phone unplugged (open both ends) checked the resistance across the pair and from each side to ground? Then short one end and check the resistance again across the pair from the other.

Is the 1100' run underground and how long has it been there?

-Hal

Oh, and I did take the IROB's out of the picture...with no luck again..

I did not check the resistance. To do that would I remove say one pair at one end, twist it together and put my test leads on the other end? And as far as testing from each side to ground, I am not sure how I would do that.
The whole reason for this job is someone hit the existing direct burial cable with a forklift and that's when the phone stopped working. I tested all the pairs and could not get it to work either so suggested replacing the cable. They ran the old cable themselves and did not have any form of protection on either end. They simply had the pairs stripped and used wire nuts to make thier connections...

Check both pairs for shorts, grounds, crosses, opens and balance with any volt ohm meter.

I just tested by bypassing all the protection devices...same results...voltage still drops from 47.6 to 3.3 and back....

What is your loop ?

What is your resistance on one given pair?

It must exceed the limits, our it would fly.

VOM will have your answer to this puzzle

I did not check the resistance. To do that would I remove say one pair at one end, twist it together and put my test leads on the other end? And as far as testing from each side to ground, I am not sure how I would do that.

Yes, that would be one test. Remove the wires at the jack and at the other end, preferably at the 66 block at the PBX. With both ends open check the resistance from wire to wire then from each wire to ground. The ground could be something like a electrical recepticle plate or ground prong, cold water pipe or the ground for your protectors if you are near enough to reach it with your test leads.

After you do that twist together the end at the jack then measure the resistance at the PBX end from wire to wire.

Let us know what your results are.

-Hal

Thanks Hal...that will be tomorrows project. I have called in a favor and gotten the help of an experienced OSP cabler for Monday.

What kind of tolerances am I looking for in the resistance tests? I think I did run resistance on several pairs that were open and got 0 ohms. Am I looking for 0 ohms and what is the maximum acceptable resistance or do I need to get that from the Avaya Definity specs?

Nothing to do with Avaya, you are testing the cable.

I think you are a bit confused here as to how an ohmmeter works and that may be part of the problem- open is not 0 ohms unless there is a short close to where you are measuring. Open should be infinite or many megohms at least depending on leakage. 0 ohms is a short like when you put both test leads together, open is when they are apart.

Another point is that you probably should be using an analog "kick meter" for this as it's 45 volt supply can show up leakage problems that won't happen with lower voltages from digital multimeters. Digital ain't always the best solution.

-Hal

Thanks for the clarification and quick ohmeter lesson. I'll put this to use tomorrow...

Yes, we have Avaya Merlin Magix systems that are pushing Analog and digital stations 3000+ feet that is spliced several times from the station back to the control unit across cat3 and cat5 and probably some that isn't even rated.

So more than likely it isn't your Definity. It's your wireing. Do you have a cable tester for cat3 to run a cable test with?

I have a microtest pentascanner that I just picked up am still learning to use.

Velcro:

A Pentascanner is not used to test OSP cable whatsoever. Don't wast your time trying to do so. BTW: Are you SURE that you really have CAT3 buried six-pair? Most OSP cable is CAT "Nothing" with a few exceptions.

Even if the cable is truly "category-rated", it will be with extreme distance limitations. You can install "category 9 cable" (joke) but it won't be certifiable beyond it's maximum segment length.

That doesn't really matter. You have another problem and my guess is a split pair. Since most OSP cable pairs aren't band-marked, when inexperienced installers terminate them (hey, you did admit that you aren't experienced in OSP), pairs frequently get split.

This is usually caused by installers not removing at least a foot of outer sheathing and taping the exposed cable core together to prevent the pairs from separating. It sounds like you are not using buried drop wire, but maybe standard PE39 or PE89 buried distribution cable. This wire isn't designed for those who aren't familiar with preparation for terminations, nor to be terminated directly upon protectors. It's designed for telco or OSP contractors. It's also the cheapest cable to purchase.

No offense, but tell us the truth: Did you buy the cheapest cable you could get? Could you have done this and possibly split pairs? We aren't going to beat you up, but I think that's what has happened here. We just want to help bail you out of the mess.

Over a distance of 1,100 feet, capacitance alone might still permit a digital phone to function partially, even with a cable fault. A lot can occur over such a distance.

My guess is that you have not followed proper sheath removal procedures and have split your tip pairs. I'll bet that all of the tip conductors are solid white, correct?

You need to take the raw end of the cable as it enters the building and connect it directly to the phone and use this process along the way to eliminate segments or components.

I don't like the use of protectors with "punch-down" inputs, like the Circa 2602 units, since they don't restrict future repair people from simply pulling a pair and bypassing the protector. Unless it's a sealed/secure splice chamber or a spliced input stub, it's not a protector IMO. It's hard to find that kind of BET for anything under 25 pairs though.

You are right on everything. The wire is PE89 and I will plead ignorance on whether or not it was the cheapest. I just described the situation to my supplier (who will remain nameless as they have been fantastic to work with) and this is what they recommended. it didn't seem cheap to me as it costs me nearly $500! I simply assumed that it was rated CAT 3. I also am quite sure you are right on the split pairs. I tried my best to remove the jacket neatly and keep the pairs together but they had very little twist if any and it hindsight think there is a very good possibility that pairs are split. Although the pair I am on now passed the wire map test...You are also right that all the tip conductors are solid white and as hard as i tried to make it look good where I removed the jacket the wire looks like sh*%..anyways, finally something that has me seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. THANKS

You said you had some help coming, sounds like the right idea. A simple volt meter, as stated earlier, will find all your problems, you don't need any special test gear.

Since this isn't a single pull and has several "transitions" per your earlier post you could easily have multiple problems in your cable connections.

So it sounds like even though I may have done a wiremap test that came out ok I may have the wrong tip with the correct ring color and that is why the phone won't come up...sound right?

Anything is possible. Just do a complete cable test and find out what's wrong no reason to speculate what the trouble may be. Any good phone tech should be able to determine what your problem(s) is/are.

that would do it , easy check twist the pair together on one end , look for continuity on the other


I dont recall it was 5+ years ago and on a panasonic digital.

analog system phones would come up but digital wouldn't . the circa guy told me what to order , I ordered installed and everything worked

like you osp is not my strong point but we do it when necessary

Some protectors present a problem for digital carriers because of their high capacitance. You can change your 5 pins to Circa #3B1FS-240. I wouldn't worry about that at this point, simply remove them at both ends and jumper the pair on through to confirm. If still no go then you have other problems.

-Hal

OK Guys. I took my multimeter out there today and did the recommended tests and here are the results.
Resistance with all pairs open and from each wire to ground were infinite on outside cable leg and the inside cable legs from the PBX to the head end of the outside cable.
Resistance on the outside pairs when shorted out at the far end were 3360 ohms for all pairs (I used the 200 setting on the multimer and got a reading of 33.6 so assume I should multiply that by 200 and I also assume that I need to divide that by 2 to determine the resistance of the length of one wire.)
Resistance of the inside pairs from the PBX to the headend of the outside cable was the same: 3360 ohms.
Resistance of the entire circuit was 6610 ohms using the same methods as above.
I then connect two of the outside pairs together to lower resistance and came up with a total circuit resistance of 4760 ohms using the same method as above.
When I double up the outside pairs there was improvement in the phone. It would stay up but had heavy static and did not display properly so think I am on the right track.
I am still puzzled as to why I am having a resistance problem with new cable when Avaya specs say I can run this phone 3500 feet on 24 AWG???
Just wanted to give you all an update if my dilema was keeping you up at night..haha

Resistance on the outside pairs when shorted out at the far end were 3360 ohms for all pairs

One of the things you have to learn when learning how to troubleshoot is- "do my test results make sense".

Put on your thinking cap, get out your manual for your meter, Google wire resistance and tell me if 2200 feet of 22ga copper wire should measure 3360 ohms.

You have to know what it is supposed to be before you can tell if something is wrong.

-Hal

You're either reading the meter wrong or have some high resistance opens. Did you strap everything out as has been suggested? Or did you read it through the protection? Only other answer is you're about 20 miles from one end to the other.

OK..feeling realy stupid about the multimeter results but this is salvagable. I calculated wrong..obviously..
So the resistance of all the outside pairs read 33.4 ohms. 1100' 22AWG

The resistance of the inside leg was also 33.4 ohms. About 500' 24 AWG

The reading of the entire circuit was 66.1 ohms.

When I doubled up the pairs on the outside cable I was just under 50 ohms for the entire circuit.

Sound better...

Upon Hal's advice I googled resistance and for 24 AWG it was .0302/foot and at 1500' that would be 45.3 ohms...I erred on the conservative side.

So at the risk of sounding even more pathetic do I divide my reading by 2 since I really tested twice the lenght?? And if so it sounds like I am within tolerances...

I'll keep checking the post and really appreciate all the great help but I'm kind of brain dead for the day...

Cheers!

Oh, I forgot to mention that I did bypass all protection but still have the shield grounded..

I just got off the phone with guy who's helping me tomorrow who is experienced with OSP. I'm giving serious thought to pulling new wire. I think I mentioned earlier in the post that when I hooked up a 1000' foot box of CAT 5e to at the headend of where the outside cable begins the phone worked like a champ. That being said and with the comments about CAT 5e not being the best wire for this application am thinkin about going with CAT 3. Your thoughts??

Stick with the original PE-89 cable installed and terminate it correctly. Have your cable friend kick test each pair. My guess is that the 3M bond clamps you mentioned aren't installed properly (they can't be on cable that small) and some of the pairs got damaged.

Please, please, please forget all of this CAT 3 or CAT 5 talk. That only applies to runs indoors or outdoors under 100 meters, period.

1,100 foot runs are not EIA/TIA regulated (they really can only make suggestions). You are dealing with an outside plant situation, a separate industry, that is category ZERO, period. Get your friend to check it out and you will be up an running in no time.

People equate outside plant to be "extended versions" of inside wiring. Not true. A whole separate set of rules and standards apply; not even close to the simple "Category" ratings. There are major factors to be considered, such as capacitance, EMI, RFI and of course, resistance. You should not be having such issues on a properly-installed piece of cable that short. PE-89 cables run for miles without error if installed, maintained and terminated properly.

Thanks Ed...

So at the risk of sounding even more pathetic do I divide my reading by 2 since I really tested twice the lenght??

Twice the length- multiply resistance per foot x 1100 x 2.

Actually all your readings look good.

-Hal

Thanks Hal!
I'll let you know how it all comes out today..

If you estimate your length to be 1100 feet do as Hal said to get your estimated ohms, so you know what to expect to see. If your looking for actual feet you were correct, take your total loop reading and divide by two for the length. That's the way I read your question. Personally from your post I think you need some onsite experienced help to figure out your problem.

Well guys, I had the other company come out and he was stumped too. The customer wants me to pull the wire back out to the headend and test the wire when it is out of the conduit like I did with the box of CAT 5e. I'm going to talk to one other company I know does OSP today and see if they can take a look...

The customer wants me to pull the wire back out to the headend and test the wire when it is out of the conduit

Ok, now you're getting ridiculous. What possible difference would that make? What does the customer know?

I'm not there to see what has been done but I'll tell you what I would do at this point. Disconnect the run from the PBX and connect it directly to a POTS CO line. Go to the other end and put your butt set or plug a plain old single line phone in the jack. If it works with no hum and rings when you call the line blame your problem on Avaya.

-Hal

You don't need an OSP person. You need someone that knows how to trouble shoot. You're in over your head.

I agree with justbill. Do you have any friends that work for the phone company as an outside tech.

If you do Give them a call. They should be able to help you.

I have had two RCDD's out there with not much luck. The one suggestion was to home run a CAT 3 from the PBX to the head end of the outdoor cable to eliminate as many cross connection as possible. Will be trying that on Thursday and wil let you all know..

Email Sent

If anyone is still following this saga here is latest update. I ran a CAT 3 home run from the head end of the outdoor cable to the PBX and now the phone seems to be functioning properly with the correct display and no hang up although there is still alot of static on the remote building end. When we make a test call the other end is crytal clear.

Any thoughts on the static?

Thanks all!!

John

High resistance Open or High resistance Short.

Update. I removed the connection between the inside wiring and the outside wiring and I get a ton of noise on by probe. Remember I ran a new CAT 3 home run to the phone room.

Based on this noise should I run sheiled? Suggestions.

At least I know the noise is coming from inside the plant now and not on the outside wire run....

:bang: In a word, no.

-Hal

you really need to turn this over to someone who can straighten this out ..
see if you can get somebody who will let you work with them and pick up some tips .

shielded cable would be the last thing I would do at this point

put the probe away , what happens when you hook a phone up at the end of the cat 3 cable ?


noisy or clear ?

Here is an idea.

Go out and pull the ground off one side. After you do that. On the side you pulled your ground off. Put your multi meter on the ground point and the other end on the shieth of the cable. Find out what your resistance is. If it is more than about 5 ohms then you have a shieth grounding problem which can cause noise interference.

The noise that you are getting on your probe in the shop is probably just some power interference on your probe.

Alright everyone. I'm not sure if anyone is still following this but wanted to give eeryone the good new that I have this working. How, you may ask? I pulled out the PE89 and pulled in direct burial CAT 5e. Works like a champ!!! All protection is in place, primary and secondary. Phone is crystal clear. My conclusion is that I used the wrong cable and that the lack of twists in the pe89 did me in..Anyways, thanks to everyone who helped and if can ever help in return don't hesistate to get a hold of me!!
Cheers, John Franklin

Thanks for letting us know you got it working. However I doubt it was the type of cable that was your problem. It's the bottom line that counts so congratulations. :thumb:

Good to here. Glad you got it working.