ok, got a client that wants to do overhead music and background music. They are getting a business account with Sirius to handle the music for these apps but need us to wire the office with speakers, etc.

I am thinking that bogen should have something like this but not sure. Below is an outline of what they want. Any advice welcomed.

1: 16 speakers
2: Volume and on/off controls in every office
3: A page port so when they page it will be heard overhead
4: A door chime for when the front door opens it will chime over the speakers overhead

Also...what would you recommend for overhead speakers that sound decent enough for this.

Thanks in advance!!!!

go to the valcom website or give them a call, they have a form you can fill in and they will design the system or you .

Im sure you could do it with bogen componets also but Ive always used valcom

Bogen TPU amplifier has everything you need page input with music mute and external contact for tone/ringer
Atlas/Soundolier has ceiling speakers and volume controls I use the coaxial speakers for better high freq. coverage
Take a look at this information it was left in another post by Rover88 https://www.bogen.com/support/productcatalog/pdfs/SysDsgn.pdf

Valcom is good but the speakers are pretty cheesy if you want decent music. It's really a paging system.

I second the Bogen TPU used with decent speakers. The cheapest way to go is with the usual 8" speaker with ceiling baffles. There are all kinds of 8" speakers, I prefer the Quam #8C10FEPAX which will give you decent low freq response especially when installed open in the ceiling. If you can't get Quam use that model as a reference.

This is going to be a 70 volt system so each speaker will need to have a line transformer. The transformers should be as big (weight wise) as you can find for low frequency response. Plenty of crappy transformers out there that will saturate at anything lower than about 100Hz.

Speakers are available in packages, that is mounted to the baffle with transformers installed. Don't forget the tile bridge, don't make the mistake of using toggle bolts to fasten the speaker to the ceiling tile.

The volume controls are called attenuators and will need to be the type for a 70 volt system. #AT-10 is pretty much a universal number for a 10 watt attenuator such as you will need.

-Hal

Are you going to supply the satellite receiver for the Serius? If yes, then look at Antex - they make some great Serius and XM receivers. They will connect to the music input on the Bogen amp.

=====
Bill

Unfortunately the only Antex receiver the would be suitable for this is the XM-100. This is a commercial receiver that also includes a schedule controller that can be programmed to change channels on an hourly and daily basis. (Dayparting)

I became familiar with Antex because they made sat receivers for DMX long before getting into XM and Sirius. Their XM-100 design is based on the DMX receiver.

They do manufacture some triple receivers for XM and also Sirius but they are for high end home users. (Read $$$$.) Not sure where they are available either.

Unfortunately most installations I've seen simply use one of the car receivers with a docking station. These are about 1/3 to half the cost of the XM-100 however the XM-100 is well worth the extra money.

-Hal

Yeah, we are just goign to use a standalone reciever for this application. It is what we use as music-on-hold and does a good job.

I am still digging around getting all my info together on the bogen units and what all we will need to install, wire, etc.

Thanks for all the info. The TPU is definitely they way we are going! Once again you guys are amazing!

Rage, Famous Telephone is a good source for most of this stuff and has good prices.

-Hal

hbiss,

Thanks, but kinda leary of Famous right now (i'll spare the details, hopefully its pains from the CSC buyout). I'll keep looking around, I know at least one of our suppliers carries bogen and will probably use them.

Bogen make some great speakers EZ1, Connectors just push through ceiling tiles, no cutting and built in back baffel. Sound radiates out 360 degrees.
Snap to install and music sound great.

Hal - Yeah I know the Antex stuff is rather $$$, but it is quality stuff. I would opt for XM over Serius, but Rage's post said Serius. BTW, doesn't Antex have a single play version of Serius now? Hmmm....I'll have to check their web site.
Nope, triple play is all I see. Sorry about the suggestion for big $$$ rage. However, if you can talk customer into XM, then the Antex XM-100 would be a great option.

Bill

Thanks BillyBob,

I'll see if that is an option. I know they already Serius in thier cars and like the service but you never know till you suggest it

OK, looks like Bogen has everything needed for this except for a door chime. Basically would like for it to chime on the overhead speakers when the door opens. Any ideas on this?

Also, for this installation what is considered the best wire to use? I have used Cat5 for paging horns but would rather have something meant for this.

Also, I notice the atenuators are for 10 and 35 watt systems. If I go with the TPU60B that is a 60 watt. Will it still work? Id rather not have to use the AT35 as it is a double gang.

Thanks

Bogen makes a tone generator, https://www.bogen.com/products/pdfs/specialelectronicspdfs/TG4Cs.pdf

As long the speaker(s) that are attached to the attenuator do not draw more than 10 watts, the AT-10 will be fine.

We usually use 18 gauge stranded for 70V systems.

OK, looks like Bogen has everything needed for this except for a door chime. Basically would like for it to chime on the overhead speakers when the door opens.

I believe the TPU has a tone generator built in, all you need is a contact closure.

Also, for this installation what is considered the best wire to use? I have used Cat5 for paging horns but would rather have something meant for this.

GOD no! Tell me you didn't use CAT5 for speakers! 2 conductor 18ga stranded and twisted is what you want to use. Do not use shielded. Do not use zip cord or anything from Radio Shack. Remember to use plenum where necessary. We use West Penn 25224B which is plenum (CMP), not much difference in price between that and PVC so we only stock plenum.

Also, I notice the atenuators are for 10 and 35 watt systems...

You have some confusion here. The power handling requirement of an attenuator is determined by what you have the speaker or speakers connected to it tapped at, NOT the total output of the amplifier supplying the system. That's why I said AT-10's which are 10 watt units. They should be much more than enough for your single speakers which are probably going to be tapped at 1 watt or so.

-Hal

Thanks for the help guys! Hopefully I can help ya'll out someday.

hbis: I figured I'd get that response about the paging horns. My only defense is I was green and listened to a boss that liked to cut corners.

Now I am with a good company and wanting to do it right.

Again, you guys are amazing! And I'll keep reading and see about that tone generator built in.

Rage the Bogen TPU amps have a built in ringer that can activated by a contact closure you could use that for the door also use at least 18 guage for the speaker lines I prefer 16 gauge unless its all short runs

A little off-topic to this particular post, but CSC has just been purchased by YET ANOTHER company, just some trivial FYI.

Thanks guys, got everything figured out and ordered!

HBISS, maybe it's time to put up a little training course on PA ststems.

Think of a 70 volt system (or 25 volt, for that matter) like your 110 Volt home wiring. You can plug a toaster that draws 10 amps in, toast your bread, unplug it and plug a can opener in to open the surplus peanut butter from the federal government. The can opener only needs 1 amp so that's all it draws.

Line operated speaker systems work the same way. The speaker only takes as much as the transfomer is tapped for. Put a 1000 watt amplifier at the head end and that 1 watt speaker won't be any louder that it would be with a 1 watt amplifier.
If, however, you load that 1 watt amplifier with a 2 watt load, the sound will degrade. Overload it enough and you'll get smoke. And you must use transformers for the voltage that you amplifier is putting out, altho most now have 25 and 70 volt choices.

Years ago the Electrical code in Kansas City, MO was changed for 1-2 years saying you had to put 70 Volt paging cable in conduit, because it was high voltage, (and yes it does BITE!) Anyhow, 25 Volt paging became VERY popular for a short time until the powers that be relented and did away with the conduit requirement.

John C.

OK, last 2 question on this topic I promise!

I am looking to find a door sensr for the TPU that can hook into the amp and chime wen the door opens. Anyone have any ideas on this. All I seem to find is one that hook into a security system. I am assuming I need one that has a power supply of some sort to provide the chime to the TPU.

I will have a volume control in each office to adjust the volume in that office only, therefore I will need to patch in multiple speaker cables into the TPU. What is the best way to do this and still allow each office to control thier own volume? Is there a patch black for speaker wire?

Thanks.

A magnetic reed switch, like the kind security systems use will work fine. You don't need power,just a closure- something that shorts the chime conections on the TPU to tell it to sound off.

I would use a barrier strip and spade terminals on the end of the speaker wires back at the backboard.

You may want to use a door switch that has a momentary contact otherwise the tone will sound for the full time the door is open for the speaker wires connect only one wire to amp and bring out to terminal block I like screw terminals for this type of application or you can go cheap and use wirenuts

I will have a volume control in each office to adjust the volume in that office only, therefore I will need to patch in multiple speaker cables into the TPU. What is the best way to do this and still allow each office to control thier own volume? Is there a patch block for speaker wire?

Just daisy chain from one attenuator to the next starting from the amplifier. Then from each attenuator do a run to the associated speaker. Unless the place is really big or there is some reason to have multiple runs back to the amplifier there is no need to do it that way.

If you need to splice the preferred method is wirenuts. I like to crimp spade lugs in the wires that connect to the amp terminal strip if it has screws.

I know this flies in the face of what we are used to as telephone techs (homerun everything) but this is a different trade and that's the way it's done.

-Hal

Originally posted by JBean: Actually a security contact is normally closed, which means it works the opposite from the way you want it. You will need a normally open contact, a little harder to find but they are available. You might find a SPDT (3 terminal NO/NC) contact easier. These are used on higher level security systems, but as Merritt pointed out, it will sound for as long as the door is open.

A better solution is an Edwards 236 door contact. It will only trip once on opening. It works great on in-swinging doors. If you have an out-swing door, you will have to MacGyver some kind of a bracket on the door to hit the paddle or if there is a second out-swing door such as in a lobby, you could mount it there.
https://www.edwards-signals.com/index.cfm?Level=47&PG=3&PID=166

Hal has it. Barrier strips work if you need a common point (think a 66 block for IW). You have probably seen these in comm closets as the "white noise" systems loop up the riser in multi-story buildings.

Crimp on for wire terminals at the "volume controls" and even the speakers. Splices that are not terminated should be the "Buchanon cap" crimped on with the appropiate crimping too.

OOPS! Forgot this isn't a government job!

:toothy:

Crimp on for wire terminals at the "volume controls" and even the speakers.

Actually the "better" attenuators such as from Atlas Sound will have Phoenix style connectors. Others as well as the speaker transformers will have leads. No reason to use anything but the right size wire nut. Matter of fact there is reason NOT to use crimp splices, especially on the speaker transformer leads. Dollars to donuts you are going to have to go back and adjust the levels (taps) on at least some speakers (maybe several times) and it's a lot quicker and easier to take the splice apart with a wire nut than cut off the crimp and redo it each time.

Another reason I can think of for not using crimps is that being able to easily take apart the loop makes troubleshooting easier.

-Hal

Correct, and when it comes to sound and audio, less length on your wiring is less stress on the amp.

Hal, you are correct on the crimps for general use, wire nuts are easier. And it was hard for you to see my tongue in my cheek from were you are at. :read:

The other was the world headquarters of an energy company called "Aquila". It was a natural gas version of Enron. Same end result as in went broke and took everyone down with them. They spec'ed just like the Gov't.

:bang:

And, yes, the good stuff has the "tails" and are fast. But don't follow a "sparky" after he adds a speaker and blows the amp. Now you know why I am "fair haired" (what I have left)and don't like doing paging/noise/music anymore. :scratch: