atcomsystems.ca/forum
I have been doing some google adwords like many of you, and have been underwhelmed with the results.

I have done some search engine optimization to show up for some key words that I THOUGHT were important to show up as an option to sell phone systems in my market. Imagine my surprise when I started to look at the Overture results for my "keywords". The tool has been down for awhile, but is up as a few days ago.

Here were all results from Jan '07 (The most recent results) that show up for the most common telecom terms. I kept only words searched over a thousand times nationwide to eliminate fluff.

The link to that tool is <a href="https://inventory.overture.com/d/searchinventory/suggestion/">here</a>.

Find the system you service and tell me if it doesn't change your opinion about where the market is heading.....


1552950  voip solution eek
 177690  voip
 129473  business voip
 102857  voip service
 92784  voip provider
 79292  voip services
49793  cisco
26812  nec
21700  business phone system
 21643  voip phone
 19192  business phone
 19140  used cisco
17087  panasonic phone
14733  nortel
13798  avaya
 13719  cisco router
9689  ip telephony
9168  asterisk
 9107  used cisco router
 8993  cisco system
 7578  business directory number phone
 6877  business number phone
 6876  voip pbx
 6717  pbx
 5833  voip phone system
 5803  internet telephony voip
 5757  lmr voip
 5569  voip service provider
4390  esi
 4346  free voip
 4284  cisco voip gateway
 4063  ip pbx
 3976  business phone small system
 3920  stunt voip
 3746  nortel network
 3350  voip phone service
 2781  vonage voip
 2612  voip corporate
 2492  avaya phone system
 2364  voip router
 2328  michigan voip
2276  panasonic phone system
 2250  voip traffic
 2065  asterisk voip
 2065  asterisk voip
 2047  voip reseller
 1983  voip software
 1936  business phone service
 1918  voip course
 1760  voip product
 1744  branded voip
 1737  voip billing software
 1733  voip discount
 1705  voip telephony
 1675  private label voip
 1671  branded reseller voip
 1633  voip system
 1623  avaya phone
 1548  pbx system
 1515  business small voip
 1459  free voip call
 1451  broadband phone voip
 1437  voip company
 1434  cheapest voip
 1422  voip comparison
 1406  cisco voip
1388  mitel
 1376  voip gateway
 1346  nortel phone
 1300  asterisk building system telephony
 1280  voip testing
 1209  voip review
 1209  virtual pbx
 1208  business phone system uk
 1193  voip equipment
 1178  pbx phone system
 1158  why voip
 1095  cheap voip
1089  shoretel
 1028  compare voip provider
 1017  low rate voip
 1013  nortel phone system
 1005  voip canada


I also was shown this link here recently that was an eyeopener. Do yourself a favor and <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljbI-363A2Q">check it out.</a> Times are changing, rapidly, and it is becoming apparent to me that I need to keep some of this in mind as I plan future marketing methods/campaigns to avoid flushing money down the toilet.

It would also appear it is in my best interest to start embracing some new skillsets.
I'm just glad Trixbox isn't on that list smile

Asterisk gets spot #18 laugh

I think what isn't reflected in the search listings is that the larger franchises already have market penetration and probably have people just directly type in their site.

For instance, if I wanted to buy a ford truck, I wouldn't go to google and type in "Ford Truck", i'd just type in www.ford.com expecting there to be a ford website. If there wasn't, then i'd google. I think that isn't accounted for here.

However, in response to your video link, all I can say is that in the year 2049 we will have to either take the red pill, or take the blue pill, and see how far the rabbit hole goes laugh
I just came from the Internet Telephony conference in L.A. 2 weeks ago. There was one thing that was mentioned that really stuck with me. They aren't having conferences to discuss class 5 switches. It's coming whether us copper slingers like it or not. When the equipment you work on day in and day out is refered to as "legacy", it is time to pay attention.
Posted By: KLD Re: The Shift to Data has already occurred..... - 09/24/07 06:56 PM
Good information....*XYZ* is well up on the list.

Emmitt, I hear what you are saying......BUT.....the people calling TDM systems "legacy" are the ones putting on the conference......the Internet Telephony crowd.

Anything more than just a dozen months old is "legacy" to them.

My two shekels.
Time marches on from cranking up the batteries on a phone to spinning a dial to pushing buttons. Technology moves forward and if we don't work with it we will work against it. I like what is coming down the pipe. I work mainly with Toshiba and their systems can go full ip or can intergrate ip and digital from large to small systems
So what exactly is your point? All that shows is that the marketing dollars of the likes of Cisco and their ilk are working and people are asking for information.

All I can say is I have never had a customer request an IP solution.

-Hal
That list is probably pretty accurate see what systems people need the most help with and what doesn't work thats why there are very few TDM systems listed they run like a rock and are user friendly no need to Google it.
Good point KLD, and I have to remember that I am in rural eastern Washington. Most corn and potato farmers don't need voip? Traditional(I prfer traditional to legacy) systems aren't going away tomorrow. But i have several customers who want it, and if we are going to continue to do business with them we need a solution in our bag.
Posted By: KLD Re: The Shift to Data has already occurred..... - 09/25/07 06:00 AM
Emmitt, here in eastern Kansas it is the same. A few banks, hospitals, the like, have branches, the VoIP IT guys use it ..... but not for the real lines....just tie lines.

Same here. I have only had one customer even talk about VoIP, and that was because the IT guy tried to shove it down his throat. Didn't work. But IF (that is a BIG IF) I ever need it I have several avenues to handle it. But study it and be prepared is not a bad thing. Jump in with both feet as my first line of product? NO WAY !!!!

Have a good day. wink
of course, since the VoIP guys are also the internet guys, makes sense they would have the larger result for search words.

try the same kind of searching for dogs, then breeds, etc.
If they had a phone that worked they would be working instead of trying to google the pos phone that hasn't worked right since IT installed them.

Maine is about the same mostly small business systems about 199 out of 200 still use POTS
I sense either some denial of what is coming, or there is a HUGE difference between metropolitan markets and rural. I am sensing the latter leads to the former.

Either way, I agree "traditional telephony" isn't going away any time soon. It still does what is needed, and makes too much financial sense. As well as it is dependable.

However, from a marketing perspective, if you want to be where people are looking for your telephony services, it would be a good idea to do some optimization under VOIP and Business Phones, as the search ratio difference is pretty huge.

I have tried to sell a few "used" phone systems recently for clients and I am shocked at how little they are drawing in offers. A 70 Phone Mitel with Octel Voicemail got no better of an offer than $450.

I was almost embarrassed to present the offer to him, preferring to just suggest he donate it to a non profit organization. Probably get a better tax credit that way.
I also think there is SOME truth to the statement that folks will type in exactly what they need. ie: avaya.com, nec.com, etc.

However, let's not give too much credit to the end user on knowledge of a completely different discipline than their core business. Sure, you know the names, Nortel, Avaya, Toshiba, NEC, Cisco, Shoretel, Vodavi, Panasonic, ESI and others off the top of your head depending who competes well in your area.

The average consumer does not know enough about telephone system manufacturers to go directly to what they need. So, although the point is well taken, it may not be completely accurate. For how many of the top 10 spots are related to VOIP, I can say personally that I see a need to become familiar with the new options sooner rather than later.
[QUOTE]
Just for fun:

I decided to make the VOIP searches bolded, or VOIP Specific products. Compare the quantity to no voip searches, especially the total number of searches.

and I don't see a whole lot of "VOIP Troubleshooting" searches in there either, so I'm not so sure that argument is valid.



1552950  voip solution eek
 177690  voip
 129473  business voip
 102857  voip service
 92784  voip provider
 79292  voip services
49793  cisco

26812  nec
21700  business phone system
 21643  voip phone
 19192  business phone
 19140  used cisco
17087  panasonic phone
14733  nortel
13798  avaya
 13719  cisco router
9689  ip telephony
9168  asterisk
 9107  used cisco router
 8993  cisco system

 7578  business directory number phone
 6877  business number phone
 6876  voip pbx
 6717  pbx
 5833  voip phone system
 5803  internet telephony voip
 5757  lmr voip
 5569  voip service provider

4390  esi
 4346  free voip
 4284  cisco voip gateway
 4063  ip pbx

 3976  business phone small system
 3920  stunt voip
 3746  nortel network
 3350  voip phone service
 2781  vonage voip
 2612  voip corporate

 2492  avaya phone system
 2364  voip router
 2328  michigan voip

2276  panasonic phone system
 2250  voip traffic
 2065  asterisk voip
 2065  asterisk voip
 2047  voip reseller
 1983  voip software

 1936  business phone service
 1918  voip course
 1760  voip product
 1744  branded voip
 1737  voip billing software
 1733  voip discount
 1705  voip telephony
 1675  private label voip
 1671  branded reseller voip
 1633  voip system

 1623  avaya phone
 1548  pbx system
 1515  business small voip
 1459  free voip call
 1451  broadband phone voip
 1437  voip company
 1434  cheapest voip
 1422  voip comparison
 1406  cisco voip

1388  mitel
 1376  voip gateway
 1346  nortel phone
 1300  asterisk building system telephony
 1280  voip testing
 1209  voip review
 1209  virtual pbx

 1208  business phone system uk
 1193  voip equipment
 1178  pbx phone system
 1158  why voip
 1095  cheap voip
1089  shoretel
 1028  compare voip provider
 1017  low rate voip

 1013  nortel phone system
 1005  voip canada


And I sell a hybrid, so I am most definitely not saying the world is over. Just a very clear market shift occurring where I am at, and want to be ahead of the curve as a prepared asset to my clients. Thought it was worth sharing.

Very interesting to hear that some areas are not seeing the big shift. I notice a difference even between Dallas and Fort Worth.
...or there is a HUGE difference between metropolitan markets and rural.

No, there's a HUGE difference between enterprise systems and small businesses. Large enterprise systems are run by IT weenies and of course IP is their mantra. Fortunately for us applications like that only make up 10-15% with the majority 85-90% made up of small businesses and mom and pop operations that don't even own a computer.

So I guess if you cater to those large systems (or any customer who prays to their CG) VoIP is going to be your bread and butter. For the rest of us TDM is going to be our forte until manufacturers discontinue them.

-Hal
Hal -

You are absolutely on the $. I know for a fact (been there, seen with my own eyes)that a VERY major NYC corporation has had nothing but grief in their conversion from TDM to VOIP.

It used to be that the major corporations had a VP for Voice and a VP for Data. The SVP of "Communications" could have come from either side. Starting about 15 years ago the SVPs ALL started coming from the Data side of the house.

Well, at this company I really can't name publicly (PM me if you like), the IT weenies decided that the 5,000 line TDM switch had to go and Cisco would come in.

Since that happened, you can now walk in to an office in Atlanta, sign on to a phone with your logon and get all your calls sent right there. That's useful isn't it? For about 5 minutes a week maybe.

Back home in the main office in NYC, they found that in order to keep the QOS up to something reasonable they had to run separate Vertical and Horizontal cabling just for Voice! Not only wouldn't the risers handle the traffic, the station cables overloaded.

Whhoops! What happened to the big savings?

And the ACD? Whoops! That doesn't work either.

And, and, and.......

No one will own up to it, but there are a lot of senior people that are real unhappy about this. But because they all signed off on it, they're afraid of letting the cat out of the bag.

Big or small, TDM is the answer for voice in 95% of the circumstances.

Sam
What happens to everyone’s opinions on that matter when the cost of a VoIP system comes down even more (it will) and even gets to the point where they are even cheaper than TDM type systems (they will?)

Now factor in another thing… As VoIP systems continue to be developed further they will get even more “plug and play friendly.”

The dawning of a new IP telephony age ain’t here like those making the IP gear would like to tell everyone… but it will be.
I’ve got a similar perspective to most of you from the other side of the demarc too…

The basic building blocks of the switched and/or copper networks are getting harder and harder to buy and often “no longer supported.” :shrug:

I’ll go to many of the conglomerated Telco equipment manufactures web-sites to look up an extremely commonly used part and what I’ll see is them touting their new fangled state-of-the-art OC-One-Bazillion-n-6 system eek … and the part number I’m looking for is not found and it’s for a DS1 something-or-another that we have millions of deployed. :bang:

… How in the world did I get on this soap-box?!?!?!?! shocked Ed, was this yours? You can have it back now.
I look forward to the day when Voip is done correctly and I can just plug my phone in anywhere I want or enter a code where ever I go and have a digital quality conversation with the full voice spectrum so that I truly could hear a pin drop instead of the current can you hear me now? But unless the customers insist on quality I'm afraid Voip will just go the cheap way out and the quality of a phone call will decrease so that we all end up text messaging instead.
"with the majority 85-90% made up of small businesses and mom and pop operations that don't even own a computer."

Holy cow, what market is that in? I'd be hard pressed to find any business WITHOUT a computer. Wow.
:confused:
Right there is your problem.

-Hal
The only business' that I can think of that dont even have 1 computer to do accounting or ordering or shipping are places that aren't really business'.

Like a residence.

Now the number of places that dont have a LAN of any kind i'll bite on being pretty small.
All of the retail stores I worked in had at least one computer, but no LAN in any case. The drugstore had a prescription computer, a UPS computer, and an ordering computer, all using dialup modems. The hardware store had two Point of sale computers using dial up lines, and a PC with DSL. The current hardware store I work at has just one PC in the office.
There are plenty of fairly large businesses in my area, but % wise, not that many.

That being said, all of my work is for small to medium size, with the vast majority being small business.

Sure, most of them have computers for one thing or another, and plenty have lans as well. Them changing over to IP is not going to be an option in the near future. I will no doubt be looking into a Nortel BCM in the future just to see what it can do and if I can do it. Maybe hook up with another tech while he's installing one to "watch & learn".

We may have to look into the future, but I have no intention of forgetting my past.

Dave
Quote
Originally posted by hbiss:
Right there is your problem.

-Hal
Yeah, living in the big city has its advantages and disadvantages. Lots of business, but the competition level is pretty fierce. Have to keep up with the latest and greatest to survive.

I like the old days of knowing everyone and people appreciating service.

It can often just turn into a price war now, and that's not so much fun.
hey Guru, living in Ft Worth, ya'll got Tandy. The helped during the first attack on phone guy income.

My issue is not whether or not we eventually migrate to VoIP, but the method it is being accomplished.

Computer Geeks are making telecom recommendations based on what they know about data comm. OK, so, a resent packet is acceptable (for data). Too bad the resent voice packet was out of place and all you got was garbled mumbling.

QoS, SECURITY, down-time, and a few other issues are going to need to improve before I would even begin recommending VoIP.

Point-To-Point between enterprise switches, cool!
Home use for folks that use their cell phone more than the home phone, cool!
Business class communications like the past 6 generations of Americans have been accustomed to, not so cool!
Upgrading software everytime a bug is uncovered, not cool at all!


Bring up the quality, stabilize the product offerings, yeah, I will jump on the IP is great bandwagon.

Until it is great, keep outta my backyard!
I see Asterisk as the best thing to hit telephony since the rotary dial! Instead of buying extremely overpriced proprietary hardware, you can get more standardized phones and equipment, and customize to your heart's content. Our office uses T1 comming in as Hdsl2 to our smart jack, then to Asterisk through the TDM card, then out to the Grandstream phones in the office, then IAX to my home and the old 1A2 key system. For us VOIP is a blessing, and has saved me so much money because some employees can work from home when getting sick or stuck at home for other reasons. The T1 service saves us money versus the 6 analog lines we had. Yes we have had some problems but I appreciate being able to learn more about our phone system and being able to make changes myself.

On the other hand one of our suppliers switched to a "hosted" pbx system. This was a disaster as call quality was low, and when the network goes down so does the phones. With us we have two analog backup lines and an analog fax line just in case, they has no redundancy. VOIP is the best thing to hit telephony in my opinion, but when its limits are not considered things end up badly. Our supplier switched from hosted PBX to TDM and have not looked back.

I still enjoy hearing my phones RING with real bells, and being able to do business in my 50's style home office, thanks to VOIP. Now if I can replace my ATA boxes with a channel bank so I can dial with the rotary phones....
My issue is not whether or not we eventually migrate to VoIP, but the method it is being accomplished.

Towards that point, a few days ago we had someone ask the Avaya forum how to have their IPO AA pick up on the 6th ring rather than what it was doing. The answer was to write about a half page of code. Of course that requires loading it and rebooting.

With the Partner system that same change is only about 6 steps using the buttons on a phone and the change is immediate with no down time.

The only reason for this that I can see is that the VoIP designers don't know any better- "Computer Geeks are making telecom recommendations based on what they know about data comm."

There is no reason an IP phone system has to look like a router and can't be programmed as easily as TDM systems.

-Hal
The mostly rural area where I live has a lot of small "mom & pop" places which have been slow to computerize.

One of my regular customers runs a service business, and up to five years ago was still doing everything when pen and paper, from scribbling bookings on a notepad, to writing up completed jobs in a daybook, to weekly totaling of amounts for apportioning payments to staff. The latter was, as I understand it, taking several hours one evening each week.

Gradually, I've extended the custom software I wrote for them to the point that it now handles everything from the basic bookings right through to weekly reports and monthly invoicing for account customers. (All running under DOS4.01, by the way!)

I set up a remote system so that the owner can operate from home some evenings, tranferring data over a simple dialup connection and then having calls forwarded.

Since then, both locations have been equipped with DSL, and the boss has become a little more computer-savvy (I think she's been reading too much about Skype), so I'm hearing suggestions about providing a VoIP voice link to provide call-forwarding and a no-charge method of dealing with office-to-home queries during the day (local calls, including call-forwarding are all chargeable here).

I could certainly set it up, and arrange for the data transfer to go over the DSL as well, but I would have reservations about switching from a solid, dependable system to this, especially given that the cost of those forwarded calls is probably only a couple of pounds a night at most.

As it stands, the only thing the system is dependent upon is having power at both ends and POTS service. Even during a recent outage when our remote unit was completely cut-off from its parent C.O. we discovered that the office and owner's home happened to be on the same line concentrator, so could still call each other. DSL was out for over 10 hours until the link was restored, of course.
Just finished up training for voip and it is the future. Not like what the IT people want it to be but a solution that will combine digital with IP. To have nothing but IP phones through out the office would be cost foolish. The best place for VOIP is to network locations together that once had point to point. Programing always depend on equipment you purchase most don't need a page of code and then a reboot. We also are in a small market and have already install VOIP solutions.
I think you pretty much summed up the aggregate opinion of this board. aok

-Hal
The one big hurdle I have seen from the data community is the level of support they expect to give and have be acceptable.

I sold an asterisk system for a client because it seemed like the best thing for them as far as bells and whistles for the money. That is, if it works and is put in correctly.

The guys doing the work were newbies, and we all paid the price with an unhappy customer while they "cut their teeth" on the new technology.

What I have found maddening is their idea of "quick response". In the legacy telephone world, if a client is down, I'M ON IT! NOW!

In the IT world, 4-8 hours is acceptable to them, if they are not too busy. That doesn't fly too well in the voice world, so they will have to adjust their thinking from data to voice. I don't care to denigrate them as some do here, but they need to take on some additional "voice" skills, just as us telecom guys need to take on some "data" skills.

It is my feeling that the companies that will succeed in the future will be the ones that will have expertise in both. Our company just recently hired some data gurus to compliment our services. Best move we ever made.

Sounds like that move won't be required for several years in smaller markets though from what I see here.
I think that the size of the organization has a lot to do with this. I work for a medium growing to large corporation (~6000 employees world-wide) which gives me a totally different perspective than people serving small businesses.

In my company the Telecommunications group is already part of Information Technology (IT) and the group is probably going to get a new name of Network Communications to better reflect what they handle: MPLS circuits, voice circuits (PRI + POTS), home office circuits (cable or DSL), cell phones, conference bridge administration, call center administration, and phone system + voice mail administration. This group uses the same help desk system as the rest of IT, but with a radically different Service Level Agreement (SLA) to make certain that voice problems are prioritized properly.

In an organization of this size, it doesn't seem reasonable to make a blanket statement like, "To have nothing but IP phones through out the office would be cost foolish." Our new IP phones save us a ton of time with MAC work compared to our old Nortel digital phones. Our organization is very standards-based and so we want everything to be the same. We are using our MPLS network to call from site to site around the globe with dramatically lower cost than we did in the past. We moved to the new technology because it benefits our organization, not because we wanted bleeding-edge technology to tout.

In our corporate environment the shift to data HAS already occurred as the OP stated. Smaller companies will move this way as they grow in size or as the technology becomes more robust and cost-effective. There was a time when only big companies could afford a PBX with voice mail in-house. Now even mom-and-pop shops have this technology. The change didn't happen overnight. I think it is reasonable to expect the same type of progression regarding the move to data. If I were serving small to medium sized customers I would prepare for the change rather than deny it.

-Rob
Hal,

There is a IP based system that can be programed just as easy as a TDM system. It is called ShoreTel.
There is a IP based system that can be programed just as easy as a TDM system. It is called ShoreTel.

If that's true why don't the mainstream manufacturers design their systems the same way? I'll tell you why, it's because the manufacturers are in bed with the IT industry. The IT industry has the $$$, they have the clout and they have the influence.

Problem is the traditional telcom industry has been taken for granted all these years because we operate in the background with little if any fanfare. How many telecom magazines with ads for the latest offerings from Avaya, Vodavi, ESI, etc. have you ever seen? Compare that with litterly tons of IT publications, many available at newsstands.

In a few words we are doomed because of our apathy. We have no industry group that would push manufacturers for the design of new VoIP systems to emulate the proven programming interface of the previous TDM systems or their packaging.

So now we have systems that require programming code and are packaged like other computer hardware. VoIP is just another method to move voice from one phone to another. Systems that use it didn't have to be designed from the ground up to be a piece of computer hardware, they could have just as easily been an upgrade to existing TDM systems. But we let it happen, the IT industry made their demands. THEY wanted something that THEIR people could understand, something that THEY were used to working with. The manufacturers listened and this is it.

Problem too is the IT industry operates much like the legal profession. Laws are written by lawyers so only lawyers will understand them. The IT industry creates much of it's software and hardware so only they will understand it.

Sure, that's not to say that we can't learn something new but what good will it do us when every CG is selling a telecom solution and people forget us and begin to consider them as well as Dell, Microsoft, Crisco, CDW, etc. the places to purchase their telcom solutions?

Yup, I really gotta get out of this business.

-Hal
Well Hal, I just don't see the extinction of traditional telecom types happening any time soon. As an IT guy who's learning the telecom side, I'll tell you what you already know, though from my point of view. While the delivery method of voice to an end user may change, there's so much more that needs to be considered when installing a communications infrastructure that I don't see most IT types having the knowledge (or time) to do the job properly. Heck, I'd bet that most of us probably didn't even want that job to begin with. Don't get me wrong, I am interested in learning new technologies and find this very interesting, but I still have a full-time job in networking/systems admin to worry about.

I, for one, will be enlisting the services of a good installer that knows telecom, whether I look at a new VoIP system or TDM.

I do think you are correct in that the manufacturers should leverage their existing technology and best practices when designing new equipment. Seems to make perfect sense to me. Sounds like the Cisco's of the world are reinventing the wheel when it comes to telecom (though they make some pretty bulletproof routers and switches in my experience). And, yes, Microsoft now offers its "Office Communications Server 2007" to work with PBXs/VoIP. Yikes.
Quote
Originally posted by SoCal Rob:
I think that the size of the organization has a lot to do with this. I work for a medium growing to large corporation (~6000 employees world-wide) which gives me a totally different perspective than people serving small businesses.

In my company the Telecommunications group is already part of Information Technology (IT) and the group is probably going to get a new name of Network Communications to better reflect what they handle: MPLS circuits, voice circuits (PRI + POTS), home office circuits (cable or DSL), cell phones, conference bridge administration, call center administration, and phone system + voice mail administration. This group uses the same help desk system as the rest of IT, but with a radically different Service Level Agreement (SLA) to make certain that voice problems are prioritized properly.

In an organization of this size, it doesn't seem reasonable to make a blanket statement like, "To have nothing but IP phones through out the office would be cost foolish." Our new IP phones save us a ton of time with MAC work compared to our old Nortel digital phones. Our organization is very standards-based and so we want everything to be the same. We are using our MPLS network to call from site to site around the globe with dramatically lower cost than we did in the past. We moved to the new technology because it benefits our organization, not because we wanted bleeding-edge technology to tout.

In our corporate environment the shift to data HAS already occurred as the OP stated. Smaller companies will move this way as they grow in size or as the technology becomes more robust and cost-effective. There was a time when only big companies could afford a PBX with voice mail in-house. Now even mom-and-pop shops have this technology. The change didn't happen overnight. I think it is reasonable to expect the same type of progression regarding the move to data. If I were serving small to medium sized customers I would prepare for the change rather than deny it.

-Rob
Great post Rob. I agree that it always starts at the top and works its way down. If you want to see what the "little guys" will be marketing in five years, just look at what fortune 500 is up to. My experience working on larger accounts tells me the shift has already occurred, and the companies that DON'T want IP are not educated enough on it.

IP done right works fine, but there are a few more hurdles and skill sets that have to be in place. It is no longer bleeding edge, but cutting edge.

I can handle that.
...we [can] learn something new but what good will it do us when every CG is selling a telecom solution and people forget us and begin to consider them.

Since I posted that statement a few days ago I heard from two old established customers. Both have strong relationships with outside CGs.

The first customer, a small prep school, was moving and now wanted phones in each new classroom. Right off when they called me they were kind of evasive about the project, they wouldn't give too many details even after I offered to look at the site or even just the plans. Because of that I told them that I couldn't quote anything other than the cost of the additional phones (I recommended 2500 type sets for the classrooms) and the cost of the mods to upgrade their 3 year old Partner system. That wasn’t a lot of money but naturally I couldn’t give them a price to move the system or install the wiring and phones without seeing the project. I was told their sparkie would be doing the wiring and that there are two buildings with underground conduit being run between them. Ok, so I wrote up what I could quote and included that the premises wiring would have to be installed under our supervision and the underground cable would have to be installed by us because of the required protectors and to insure that it is of the proper type. But again I had no idea what was involved.

Second customer is also a move; new building is being built which is about 50% completed. I’m at their existing office a few times a year to do MACs and not one word about the new building even after I drop the hint- how is it going? I was there last week to make changes to their Partner Messaging. The office manager is discussing the changes she would like made with another girl at which time the girl slips and says “this is only until we move into the new building, right?”

So what happens? First customer calls to thank me but they have decided to go with VoIP. It will save them $14,000 because they won’t have to run a cable between the buildings. How do they know what the cable will cost?? The second customer I’m sure will go VoIP also.

None of this really bothers me EXCEPT why didn’t they consider asking us about a VoIP solution. I’ll tell you why- it’s because they think VoIP is something that is to be provided by an IT company.

-Hal
I live in a small town in Alberta. In the past 6 months to a year I have had a lot of small busniness wanting to know if VOIP is a good idea for them. My response has always been NO. I don't fully understand VOIP, but what I do is that if you have a multi branch business that it is good, for inter branch calling. In Canada the long distance rates are CHEAP, compared to years ago.
There is only one case when it is going to save money. This customer is moving into the country and the telco is going to charge $6K per line to install. With a wireless IP it will be a saving.
The other thing that I say is if your network goes down you are done no phone calls in and out.
The final decision is up to the customer most stay with with what they have. That is my 2 cents worth. I am sure that there are other advantages or not.
Quote
Originally posted by hbiss:

None of this really bothers me EXCEPT why didn’t they consider asking us about a VoIP solution. I’ll tell you why- it’s because they think VoIP is something that is to be provided by an IT company.
Seriously? If you are as excited about VoIP with your customers as you are here I wouldn't expect anyone at any point to ever ask you about VoIP.

Some of you guys sound like the telephone operators after direct dial was invented.
What's your point? I doubt either of these two read this forum. We don't wear "I hate VoIP" T shirts. Our customers know full well that we are an Avaya Business Partner and I'm also sure they know Avaya has VoIP solutions.

My point is that we have been their telecom vendor for years yet the first customer didn't even ASK us about it, the second won't even TELL us what they are doing, they apparently went straight to their CGs.

To me this is a strong indication as to the direction this industry is turning. It's not a shift to data, but a shift in who will be providing telecom services in the future. Companies don't want to deal with two different people, they are seeing that they can have both voice and data handled by one person.

So it looks like we all will have to become CGs in order to remain in the telecom business.

-Hal
Whether we use TDM or VoIP for our new phone system, we'll still need a qualified installer to manage the install of the new system. It doesn't make sense to me to rely on someone only familiar with data to do that. I mean, I'm familiar enough with routing packets, but I wouldn't know how to program a phone switch.

I work for a company with multiple offices where the IT department is centrally located. We'll certainly be using VoIP trunking to connect the offices. VoIP to the desktop seems to make sense to me from the standpoint of being able to manage the phones remotely (do MAC work). Any thoughts?
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Originally posted by Steve Brower:
VoIP to the desktop seems to make sense to me from the standpoint of being able to manage the phones remotely (do MAC work). Any thoughts?
You should be able to do manage any modern phone system remotely, TDM or VoIP.
Whether we use TDM or VoIP for our new phone system, we'll still need a qualified installer to manage the install of the new system.

Yours is the voice of common sense. Unfortunately common sense doesn't prevail against billion dollar advertising, customers with no technical knowledge and stagnating IT companies eager to cash in on this new found gravy train.

-Hal
I understand the frustration with the shift to VoIP regardless of whether it is appropriate or not. Some of that emotion may be recognized by customers just as clearly as if you actually wore an "I hate VoIP" T-shirt. If Telecommunications Professionals want to consider VoIP as the enemy, then at least know your enemy and have ammunition to fight it. Lashing out with accusations ("stagnating IT companies"?) is NOT effective. To the customer investigating VoIP it isn't the IT company that sounds stagnant. Treating your customers as if they have "no technical knowledge" when they think they do will not build credibility with them, especially if they think you are being condescending.

Instead, talk up the strengths that the TDM system you are selling has over VoIP for a small business. Explain how a solution that works for a 10,000 person company with dedicated Telecommunications and Information Technology staff is not appropriate for a 25-person business.

For example, my company benefits from being able to unplug an IP phone and plug it in to any other jack in our office. The benefit justifies the cost because larger companies have people moving around all of the time and can afford to connect every jack to a Power over Ethernet (PoE) port. It may sound like a benefit to someone at a small company, but it is only going to work if they have the infrastructure. Even then, how often are they going to use that feature anyway?

I am one of the dreaded (hated?) CGs. I have a Cat5e LAN in my house and a Partner ACS that I have no intention of replacing. If my ACS processor died tomorrow I'd buy another ACS. Why? It works great, it is already overkill for the application, and I don't want to be a network administrator. Educate your customers so they see that, too.

I appreciate the continuing education that I receive from the Telecommunication Professionals on this board. I hope that I can provide some help in return.

-Rob
I work on Voip enabled systems everyday. This includes teleworkers with remote sets and sites tied together via VoIP transport. As I have stated before that works fine.

As far as easy MAC work I don't know of a TDM system produced today that doesn't have some sort of Auto set relocation program. Those that don't can be wired via patch panels for easier enduser Moves, Adds or Changes.

The major problem today is this.. A recent discussion held about recurring licensing fees resulted in the following thoguhts. A TDM system deliver 12 sets X 1 PRI and 4 port voice mail would cost the customer (X) amount of dollars installed. Done cut and dried unless changes or additions are needed.

However in 365 days alot of IP to the desktop products require a renewal of licenses. Based on the 12X23 scenario previously mentioned install one manufacturer would charge the customer another $7000 for licenses and software subscription. Guess what happens 365 days later again? What TDM manufacturer REQUIRES this? Where is the "savings" if it requires 5-7K annually to keep it running?

Alot of us longer time (notice I didn't say older laugh ) installers equate this to highway robbery. The factories keep saying look the the recurring revenue stream and we say at what expense...I can't look somebody in the eye and tell them they are going to experince great savings in MAC work when I know at the end of every year I show up like the IRS shaking more money out of them.
That pretty much sums it up. Thanks for a more realistic view of what many people are fearing. The sad thing is that most of the people buying these systems don't ask questions, they just look at the system purchase as "keeping up with the Jones".

My kids have always insisted upon buying shoes that cost a half-paycheck, knowing that a $20 pair of shoes from Wal*Mart will cover their feet just fine. It's not what the shoes do, it's how they look or what they saw on TV/magazine ads. They don't know if these shoes are good or bad; they just absolutely, positively MUST have them because that's what everyone else has.

Back to the original subject: Then, the company who sold the product they insisted upon having now becomes a thief when it comes time to pay their annual dues. "Why didn't you tell us this?" is the question, which should be followed by "I tried to tell you, but you didn't want to listen".

Just like with kids, people who insist upon buying products such as these need to be treated accordingly.
I am a telecommunications consultant for mostly large companies. Usually, large companies means call centers and AVAYA is king of that world. I would estimate 80% of large companies here use AVAYA. Only one uses Cisco and thats becuase their IT and telecom department are the same people (who happen to be Cisco guys).

My biggest frustration with VOIP (aside from Asterisk) is that VOIP is presented as all or nothing (you are not using VOIP if you are not using VOIP phones) For a large business, a $500+ Cisco IP phone versus a $250 AVAYA TDM phone x10,000+ does not make sence. Add in the fact that telecom departments are under funded with hardware thats 20+ years old (yet for some reason we are held to higher standards then the network guys who have lower SLA and much bigger budgets) and that large business means call centers and you wont see systems from network companies moving in this area any time soon.

I use Cisco Call manager and it takes me 10 minutes for me to do something that takes me 20 seconds to do in AVAYA. This is just one example of that network companies dont know voice or why this is such a big deal. At one company they can have 400+ mac tickets for 2 people per week doing software only.

Not only do VOIP only systems from network companies take forever to do mac and cost to much for large companies because of the cost of phones and servers. They also have poor if even any IVRs, and CMS systems. That is a big deal.

The same camp that is pushing all voip systems, voip trunks (yuck) and asterisk (double yuck) are the same people who are pushing linux (becuase its "better"). People dont like change, the last time I checked almost all PCs run Windows despite being "bad". Same thing with PBX systems. Seasoned call center managers EXPECT AVAYA CentreVu and they dont give a rip if its linux, voip, open source, etc. Same thing with windows. People dont like change. AVAYA is not going anywhere in big business.

I use VOIP every day on AVAYA Definity systems, parts of which are 20+ years old (circuit packs, 2500 phones). However, I and most large companies that have telecom people who know that they are doing do not see VOIP as all or nothing. They see it as a new tool to reduce cost and increase features. I use VOIP for teleworkers via their laptops, outsource call centers and to send calls all over the world. I rarely use or see a VOIP phone in a large company. If a VOIP phone it used it is becuase to wire a new leased floor for TDM costs more then the phones.

However, for smaller companies VOIP could be attractive. Becuase you can offset the processing power of the pbx to the phone. The venture ip system is a perfect example. For large business no matter if you use ip phones or not, you still need lots of processing power (IVR, vectors, cti screen pops, voice apps, cms, etc). You cannot offset the processing power on to the phone.

They way I would present VOIP to small or mid size companies is the same way I present it to large companies. VOIP is an additional tool for your PBX. A small company can use it to have some people work from home, a exec to use a laptop for confrence calls, send calls between buildings for free, etc.

TDM, is not going away anytime soon. However, I would still offer VOIP as a option for the above features so when they get the temptation to go voip you can say you already are using it.

If you want to know how to market a TDM system in artificial "VOIP world" look no further then the AVAYA Definity. They are a text book example of how to compete against Cisco, Shoretel, 3Com, etc. and they are winning.

For those customer you loose to a VOIP only system (even more so if they used VOIP trunks), they will come back. When the VOIP trunk goes down, and the IT guy says it will be fixed in a few hours or days (or the VOIP provider goes bankrupt). Or when they want advanced features (real IVR, CMS, voice apps) and the IT guy says they will get a "solution" (the second most over used and over rated corporate buzz word after India) in weeks, months or years.
If Telecommunications Professionals want to consider VoIP as the enemy, then at least know your enemy and have ammunition to fight it. Lashing out with accusations ("stagnating IT companies"?) is NOT effective.

I don't think any of us consider VoIP as the enemy, just the way it's being marketed and implemented.

I use the phrase "stagnating IT companies" because that really is the case. The computer boom encouraged many people to consider a lucrative career in IT and, like the law profession, the glut has caused quite a few to go belly up. I've seen several CGs close up shop because of the competition and either go to work for another IT company or do something different entirely. So all is not rosey in IT land and telecom is just the ticket many IT companies need to keep afloat.

-Hal
It's interesting that you guys mention software renewal costs with respect to VoIP systems. On the data side this is just a cost of doing business. I can't imagine my boss would bat an eye at recurring licensing costs for a phone system as he sees this all the time with our software systems.

NFC and RBF, I'm so used to doing MAC work on my old ROLM system, I forget that there are probably much easier ways to do this on the newer TDM systems.
Quote
Originally posted by hbiss:

So it looks like we all will have to become CGs in order to remain in the telecom business.
Look at the upside of being the CG in addition to the phone guy - you don't have another voice in their ear during the frequent computer repair trips, you don't have someone munging up the cable you installed, and you can install things that make sense for the customer.

This is why we voice, data, and Internet - I wasn't happy with what my customers were getting so we expanded to do it correctly.
Quote
Originally posted by djweis:
Quote
Originally posted by hbiss:
[b]
None of this really bothers me EXCEPT why didn’t they consider asking us about a VoIP solution. I’ll tell you why- it’s because they think VoIP is something that is to be provided by an IT company.
Seriously? If you are as excited about VoIP with your customers as you are here I wouldn't expect anyone at any point to ever ask you about VoIP.

Some of you guys sound like the telephone operators after direct dial was invented. [/b]
Ditto. Exactly what I was thinking.

Hal,
If you talk to your customers about VoIP the way you talk about it in this forum, which btw they can see... then why would they consider using you to provide that type of service?

Richard
Well my guess is that many of us are much older and wiser than others here due to our experience in the industry. We've seen many reinventions of the wheel come and go, in fact I believe that VOIP is in it's third roll out in twenty years, yet still full of bugs. Correct me if I'm wrong. I strongly encourage you to do so.

I'm not selling my customers anything that I know doesn't work 100%. I'll bet you a dollar to a donut that Hal feels the same way.

Does VOIP have a place in this industry? Of course it does. Is it necessary to have an IP phone on every classroom wall or at every cash register position? Of course not. Even those who are touting 100% IP would agree on those points.

The fact is, only people who truly know the industry can assist customers in making such decisions. The "Johnny come Lately's" who have jumped into the field don't have a clue except how to make their phone work with their box. They can't resolve issues like "ring trip" or lack of loop supervision. If their box says it's working, then it is. Yeah OK, go tell that to Verizon.

Sorry if I have lost any friends here in making these statements, but I haven't been working in this industry for nearly thirty years for nothing.
I've got tough skin and enjoy a discussion. Nothing works 100%, if it none of us would be as busy as we are. There are some benefits that people want enough to trade off 100% reliability for 100% increase in convenience or usefulness. I use software that lets me get things done quicker than other packages or doing things by hand, but it does have some reliability problems. I get so much more done using it that it's worth the tradeoff of having problems with it at times.
Most of our clients want something solid that doesn't have any advanced features, we sell them a Partner. If they have multiple sites and want to have shared voice mail, 4 digit dialing between sites, and cell phone integration, we'll put in an IP Office. Because of the nature of multiple site integration, some of the features won't work right if they lose a link. There's enough benefit from having the feature when it works that it's okay when the T1 is taken out by a backhoe.
Hal,
If you talk to your customers about VoIP the way you talk about it in this forum, which btw they can see... then why would they consider using you to provide that type of service?


Sorry, I ain't buying it. But even if all you say is true, why did they run straight to a CG and not some other telecom company?

I'm sure next you will be saying that because of me nobody will buy a VoIP solution from any telecom company...

-Hal
Quote
Originally posted by EV607797:
I'm not selling my customers anything that I know doesn't work 100%.
For the record... Our maintenance agreement with Avaya just ran out (Thank God, I really despise that company). It was a good time to blow up the old Avaya G3 and start over. I looked at some VoIP solutions and decided to stay with what we have. It's paid for AND it works. So, I'm not on the VoIP bandwagon, but I see the train a comin and think we (phone guys) should be careful to not appear as though we have our heals dug in too deep.
Quote
Originally posted by hbiss:
Hal,
If you talk to your customers about VoIP the way you talk about it in this forum, which btw they can see... then why would they consider using you to provide that type of service?


Sorry, I ain't buying it. But even if all you say is true, why did they run straight to a CG and not some other telecom company?

I'm sure next you will be saying that because of me nobody will buy a VoIP solution from any telecom company...

-Hal
Why? Too many factors I don't know about. Maybe they had already made up their minds to buy another solution (product and vendor) before you came out and thought they were doing you the "courtesy" of a look at it.

I guess you'll just have to be wrong on your second point. I don't blame you for all that is wrong.
Deleted by Admin
Quote
Originally posted by Steve Brower:
It's interesting that you guys mention software renewal costs with respect to VoIP systems.
Could you please list some of these systems. Im curious to know which in-house voip systems require annual renewals. Please dont list hosted solutions.

~r
Quote
Originally posted by hbiss:
What's your point? I doubt either of these two read this forum. We don't wear "I hate VoIP" T shirts. Our customers know full well that we are an Avaya Business Partner and I'm also sure they know Avaya has VoIP solutions.

My point is that we have been their telecom vendor for years yet the first customer didn't even ASK us about it, the second won't even TELL us what they are doing, they apparently went straight to their CGs.

To me this is a strong indication as to the direction this industry is turning. It's not a shift to data, but a shift in who will be providing telecom services in the future. Companies don't want to deal with two different people, they are seeing that they can have both voice and data handled by one person.

So it looks like we all will have to become CGs in order to remain in the telecom business.

-Hal
I think everyone will lose some business until we embrace the offering of data related services. IT companies don't do as good of a job serving voice customers yet, but our company has hired IT guys to be that one stop shop. There is nothing stopping you from doing so. None of us can be master of all trades, but the shift is here. If you are feeling it where you are at now, imagine how the big cities are feeling it. I see hosted VOIP on almost all bids now, and I wouldn't recommend that to ANYONE unless they were on fiber at all locations.

The only reason your clients did not come to you first is they must not have known you offered it, or felt it was out of your "scope."

All of that is correctable, but I agree we must take on some IT skills to continue flourishing.
I see this trend similar to what was experienced in the cell phone industry. Few will dispute that analog cell phones like "The Brick" actually offered superior call quality than today's sometimes spotty digital coverage.

Why did the change to digital occur then? Cost. Pure and simple. Whereas analog service consumes a huge amount of network resources, digital is quite efficient. What is lost in quality is more than made up for in cost.

If call quality was 99.999% with analog, but for less than 50% of the cost you could have 99% quality/QOS, etc, would you take it. Many customers say YES!

The biggest benefit of IP so far that I see is:

reduced cost of cabling (One drop vs two)
data driven applications (which are few and far between for most companies)
linking locations together
remote users managed easily
reduced MAC charges, ease of administration (This depends on the system of course-but overall, yes it's true)
and the ability to interface with SIP trunking.

I am going to a SIP forum put on by Cbeyond tomorrow, and they are a decent integrated provider in our market. With SIP, you can plug staight into the PBX and avoid the cost of the PRI card. SIP trunks acts as an emulator and can run over your data connection. Some interesting options coming with that service, and even though it's costly to implement on my current system offering, I know it's only a matter of time.

In some cases the cost of the actual phones are still more than traditional TDM, but that will soon change. It's the other factors listed above that affect the TCO (Total cost of ownership) that business owners HAVE to take into consideration.

If they are going to save a ton of money, they will do it for slightly less quality. They have already proven that with cell phones if the financial case is compelling enough.
Quote
Originally posted by Telephone Guru:
I see hosted VOIP on almost all bids now, and I wouldn't recommend that to ANYONE unless they were on fiber at all locations.
It doesn't fit as many places as some providers are trying to put it. I had a client where I proposed a Partner and they had a hosted quote from Packet 8. It was easy to compete with after we called them and verified they had no coverage in Iowa. Oops, important to check that before getting too far in the sales process.

As far as reliability, I feel better with a $1mil switch in a controlled environment with a DC battery plant and trained technicians than a single non-redundant anything key system in the back room of an office. You are still susceptible to problems in the last mile but in the event of an outage your auto attendant and voice mail is still answering calls.
Quote
Originally posted by Telephone Guru:
The biggest benefit of IP so far that I see is: reduced cost of cabling (One drop vs two)
Interesting. I just saw a thread on another forum about this very subject. One person responded that they are using separate cables for voice and data.
Maybe they found that it worked better that way.
I'm sure in some instances it will work on one cable, but maybe not always.

Quote
Originally posted by Telephone Guru:
...reduced MAC charges, ease of administration (This depends on the system of course-but overall, yes it's true)
Good for the end user. Not so good for the phone guy.

Quote
Originally posted by Telephone Guru:
... ability to interface with SIP trunking.
Excuse my ignorance. What is the SIP interface? One needs an ethernet connection in the phone system?

Quote
Originally posted by Telephone Guru:
In some cases the cost of the actual phones are still more than traditional TDM, but that will soon change.
I pay between $XXX and $XXX for digital phones (Avaya). Last time I checked, maybe the prices have come down, the IP phones were over $XXX.
That's a big difference.

But your points are well made and well taken. At the end of the day it will come down to price more than quality.
Hi.

This may be more of a philosophical question/comment but what is really the point of VOIP ?

1. It still requires an infrastructure of T1 lines to support the call( its Data T1 vs voice T1)

2. The Quality is worse than traditional phone service

3. It seems to have more downtime and network than most traditional service.

Does it really just boil down to bypassing outrageous wasteful government taxes and all the fees associated with the simple act of making a phone call?

Hypothetically, if a phone call was treated from a tax and fee standpoint the same way as transmitting a packet of data. Would there really be a need for VOIP service?


As far as VOIP system for an single office building(not working building), what would be the benefit besides saving on wiring?
Repeater007, you do raise an interesting point. I am by no means a big fan of VOIP, but I do see that there are some benefits in using it. Granted, these benefits are more for a large office or corporate environment, but then these big businesses are the ones that are buying it. Most small businesses buying it are just trying to make themselves look like the the big boys. Here's my uneducated take on things and please, just take it for what its worth:

1. These entities already either pay for point-point data connections or MPLS infrastructures to handle their data traffic. This has been the norm since the 1960's. These very same connections can be used for inter-office voice calling if set up and managed properly; thus reducing the cost of long distance or dedicated circuits for voice traffic.

2. The supposed elimination of separate wiring networks for voice and data, although the jury is still out on that matter.

3. Corporate-level administration allows
less-than-fully educated Joe Schlotsky, the phone administrator, to manage the company's phone system from a central point. Phone doesn't work? They just overnight one to the site and let the guy with the manager pants (that don't fit) crawl under the desk and plug it in. There is no longer a need for technicians, dial-up connections, etc. for this purpose in their minds. If they build their private network properly, they might even eliminate the local telco from the equation. It's a fact of life that the local telcos cause many local service problems on their own without even trying. Customers jump at the opportunity to eliminate them from the loop, if possible.

I'm not necessarily buying these benefits yet myself either, but they are out there and someone is taking them into consideration.

4. The obvious huge tax savings. I think that's a big part of it. Think of the millions and millions of taxable long distance minutes for calls between offices that are gone. How about "far end hop-off" calls? There's a bunch of money being saved there in taxes alone and I'm guessing that it's billions of dollars. Think about companies with international offices alone. That's a lot of money being saved.

Still, even by adding up all of these benefits, there are so many more issues that find many people shaking their heads. VOIP offers many advantages, but the insane costs for hardware, software (including licensing), and the necessary infrastructure to support it still have a long way to go. Not to mention that most people marketing this equipment have no experience in the phone industry whatsoever. They see an IP phone as "just another client (their word for device) on the network". Anyone with half an ounce of sense knows better than that.

Of course, since almost all VOIP hardware is marketed by computer systems manufacturers, they are very accustomed to expecting their customers to pay annual licensing fees. That's been the norm with large computer networks for years, in fact it's even trickled down to end-user levels. Not so much with licensing fees, but the planned obsolescence of your program within a year or so. How many versions of Windows have you heard of, yet each time you bought (the right to use it), it was touted as the end-all of computer problems?

With traditional phone systems, you pay a few hundred bucks for each phone and you are done. Aside from paying for optional maintenance contracts, you use them until they die. Buy the same thing using VIOP architecture and you'll find yourself buying that same system over, over and over again with annual software licensing fees. Don't want to pay them? No problem......Your phones just stop working, or in a good case, they keep working but you can't dial any of the new area codes or exchanges that came up since your last license renewal. IP-based "systems" offer much more control over a business from outside parties, i.e: software manufacturers. They are legally there, they can legally cut you off and there's nothing you can do about it. You bought a license to use their software for a term. You never, ever own it and they can take it away from you, leaving you with a dumpster full of plastic things that look like phones. I know that there are some exceptions, but this is the norm from the "big three" VOIP players for sure.

Traditional (TDM) systems don't work that way. Once you buy them, you own them (unless you lease the system). You can use that system until it falls off the wall. You can sell it to someone else without registration or license transfer fees. Move it from Cleveland to Seattle: It will continue to work. If there are upgrades available, you can buy them from your dealer if you want. If you don't need or want them, you have the right to make that choice. If the phones don't work, or if you need more of them, you can buy more of them without paying annual "seat license fees". I could go on, but I think that you get my point.

Does an in-house system that's 100% IP make sense? Not to me, but what do I know? I have chosen to stick with what I know works for now, since it's really hard to convince a small business owner to spend 2-3 times the cost for a system with a handful of phones. Heck, I'd venture to say that about 80% of the features available on even the oldest phone systems never get used. Why pay more for a system that does the same, or even less?

Remember that VOIP is in it's third generation or "roll out". The first two times were miserable failures and the brunt of most VOIP jokes. It just didn't work, and to make matters worse, it didn't work for a second time. Part of the problem was, and still is, the fact that non-phone system equipment manufacturers are the ring leaders in pushing IP. They have a great idea, but they don't know what they are doing with it. "It should" isn't an acceptable term in the phone industry. The answer is yes, it works or no, it doesn't.

Sadly, most of the big telecom manufacturers are largely to blame for this split between industries. These companies sat back with the mindset of "letting the little kids play in the sand box" with them. None of the big boys started showing an interest in IP until about ten years ago. Hey, some of them still haven't taken it seriously. Now, they've let these little kids grow up and they are having to start flexing some muscle. Those "little kids" aren't so little anymore.

Like I said, the phone equipment manufacturers sat back and laughed at the new kids on the block, especially when they failed so miserably. Now that there's proof that IP can (key word: CAN) work, these very same manufacturers aren't laughing anymore. They are scrambling to come up with IP products and systems. Most are doing well with them, but many are not. They may have done themselves in by waiting for the proverbial "third strike" that never happened.

Same thing with the local service providers and long distance services. They are losing customers due to the potential flexibility of IP. As with manufacturers, some of these companies may be a day late and a dollar short. Many of them are trying to make up their lost revenue with their cellular markets, but even that's starting to be a gamble. Look at Sprint and Alltel for example.

It's probably going to take a fourth or even fifth generation roll out before VOIP is really a total solution for the typical end user. At least now that the real phone system manufacturers are taking it seriously, research and development will move at a faster pace. This will also help to drive down equipment costs. Then, and only then will VOIP to every desktop be a viable option, if not the norm.

If taxation of Internet traffic ever occurs, then that may (will) cause a major shock wave in VOIP. Not so much from a cost standpoint, but from the psychological impact standpoint. "Oooh...VIOP costs too much since you have to pay taxes to use it". It could happen, but probably not nearly as significantly as the insane amount of tax paid on a traditional copper phone line. Land line taxes have been somewhat gradual in hitting us over time, so we hardly noticed them for decades. With Internet taxation, it will be an instant shock in a big way.

In my area, we are paying about 30% in local, state and federal taxes for a land line. That's just for dial tone; forget about the calls we make. Since when is having a phone, or even a cell phone for that matter, considered a source of "sin tax" revenue? Apparently now.

In closing, I think that in time the VOIP concept will eventually catch on as prices drop. I don't think that it's going to happen quickly. Maybe over the next two decades or so.

Please deposit twenty five cents for the next three minutes...(pay phone humor for the younger ones).
I hurt my self around the 7th paragraph. Must read tomorrow when liver is using both eyes.
Posted By: KLD Re: The Shift to Data has already occurred..... - 10/17/07 08:00 PM
BRAVO !!! BRAVO !!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:thumb:
Ed, I think you are going to need an agent.

-Hal
Wow Ed, after that I think the soap box should be upgraded to a marble pedestal.
Priceless.

Hal,......I say that you be the agent and I'll drive the bus.
There is a very good letter to the editor in the November 6th issue of PC Magazine. If any of you have it, it is titled 'A VoIP Reality Check'
Finally, someone who actually understands that traditional phone systems exist for a reason!
So now that we've established that VOIP is starting to become a large market, and there is a convergence happening between us and IP... what you you guys think is the best path to learning these VOIP systems.

If you can't beat 'em...
RE: If you can't beat'em
VOIP is a done deal,and we all are running into various eq. that needs to hook to lan or wan via,routers,thru firewalls,etc. I am aligned with several CG's for network cabling and they give me advise with just a phone call. My biggest weakness is terminology then intergration{PC PROGRAM} from their side to mine. Over time I've learned what should work,but its getting there thats hard. I don't like to depend on 3rd party avalibility for repair or programing when it effects runtime of system.
One of my regular customers asked me if I could stop by on Friday morning to have a word with a salesman about phone service.

What was he pushing initially? Yep, trying to sign them up to go totally VoIP. The sales patter just kept rolling out as he emphasized "moving forward by going digital" over and over.

I asked him if he could guarantee quality of service with VoIP. Apparently, yes! :rolleyes: I quizzed him further. It seems his company is installing dedicated fiber links just for VoIP between its centers, so they can regulate traffic to maintain quality. That may or may not be true, I don't know, but it's of little significance since this company's nearest plant is miles away.

I asked him how that guaranteed service worked after the traffic left his company's network and encountered all the usual contention issues on the net out to our rural neck of the woods. I pointed out that there was no way he could guarantee a maximum packet transit time through parts of the network his company did not control. I'm not even quite sure he understood what I was talking about.

After a few more attempts with the usual sales bluff, I told him flat out that there is no way I'm going to recommend that the business goes over to VoIP as its sole telephone service. Calls which will "probably be O.K. most of the time" just ain't good enough.

Clearly deciding that he wasn't going to get a VoIP sale, he then started in on ISDN and multi-voice channels, a complex equipment lease-purchase scheme, and a call package which while offering reduced rates on the calls themselves would leave them no better off than they are now. In fact as we've just managed to get an extra 25% discount on all calls from BT for volume, they'd probably have been worse off.

We're talking about a backstreet store in a small town here, which at the moment has two POTS lines, one with DSL. The place seldom has more than two people working in there at a time, sometimes only one.

The final kicker was that his company could completely take over the existing two analog lines, again with a complicated equipment lease package to "move them forward" with modern equipment. One of the partners in the company jumped in at this point and asked about repair, how quickly engineers could come out for line faults etc.

I know what the answer should have been, but according to the salesman they have engineers all over the country ready to pounce at a moment's notice who deal with all faults themselves.

Wrong! In this backwoods part of Norfolk all the local loops and C.O. plant is still entirely owned by BT. Any other company "taking over" a line really does so in name and accounting only, since faults have to be reported to BT's relatively new OpenReach division for action.

I don't have to tell you my recommendation, do I?

Quote
Originally posted by EV607797:
In my area, we are paying about 30% in local, state and federal taxes for a land line.
Over here the only visible tax which is added to the bill is 17.5% VAT (sales tax). Of course, the phone companies have so many license fees and other taxes to pay that they just increase the basic rates to cover them.

So while the U.K. system makes it look cheaper with just the one tax, I can't help feeling that the U.S. billing with the taxes broken down gives a better indication of where all the money is going.

As I've said about the cost of gasoline over here, if everybody was handed a bill which said "Fuel £2.50, tax £7.50" it would open a few eyes (and those proportions are about right).

Quote
Please deposit twenty five cents for the next three minutes...
Ding-ding........Ding-ding.........Ding!

(Sorry, I didn't have any quarters! wink )
So while the U.K. system makes it look cheaper with just the one tax, I can't help feeling that the U.S. billing with the taxes broken down gives a better indication of where all the money is going.

There may be a better accounting of taxes on our bills but it is by no means complete. There are still other taxes that are just rolled into the basic rate like franchise fees that the TELCO pays to each municipality on a local level.

One day soon the cable companies and other alternative telcom providers will be hit with the same taxes which will either put them out of business or remove their competitive advantage.

As far as I'm concerned, unless you string your own cables you are using the public network and all traffic should be taxed the same if there are going to be taxes. Right now the only advantage low cost transport methods have over others is due to no taxation.

-Hal
That and the $10 for CID and $8+ FCC poor and downtrodden fee.

Carl
Quote
Originally posted by Paul Coxwell:
[QB] ...according to the salesman they have engineers all over the country ready to pounce at a moment's notice who deal with all faults themselves.
I heard that once from Lucent. "We have an army of engineers available..." Turns out they also have a larger army of customers.

Quote
Originally posted by Paul Coxwell:
[QB] In this backwoods part of Norfolk all the local loops and C.O. plant is still entirely owned by BT.
Are there other telecom companies who have equipment (in CO's and in the ground) or is it like America where most of that is still a function of the Bell/AT&T? I say Bell/AT&T realizing I'm liable to be corrected on that one. Point is, does BT control it all or do they have to sell services to what in the US are called CLECs?
Quote
Originally posted by richardmorris:
Are there other telecom companies who have equipment (in CO's and in the ground) or is it like America where most of that is still a function of the Bell/AT&T?
We have local-loop unbundling where other companies install equipment in the C.O. and the line is then jumpered across from the MDF, but the local loop from that point right out to the customer's demarcation point is under the new BT OpenReach division. OpenReach (which was only created at the beginning of last year) is supposed to provide services to both BT itself and to all other companies on an equal basis. There's also partial LLU for DSL service.

At the moment though, it's only the larger towns which have any C.O. presence of other companies. Out here in the boondocks everything is still completely BT, with any other company providing service simply sub-contracting to BT Wholesale, another fairly new division of BT.

The cable companies own their own lines outright, but again these are only to be found in the larger town and cities. The nearest to me are in Norwich (largest city in the county) and Gt. Yarmouth, both about 20 miles away.
Quote
Originally posted by Paul Coxwell:
Out here in the boondocks everything is still completely BT, with any other company providing service simply sub-contracting to BT Wholesale, another fairly new division of BT.
Was this brought about, as it was in America, by government regulation?
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