I'm pretty sure this should be an easy question to answer for some of you guys out there. I'm pretty new to 1A2 systems but I have been working with IT and electronics for a long time. I recently found a 620A2 key and power supply to go with it in an old phone company garage and some phones and I want to try to get them to work again. I'm running into a few problems.
The 620A2 I found had an unusual configuration and I think it may be part of the problem. It was filled with 469A KTUs instead of the usual 400Ds.
I checked the output voltage on the power supply and it is producing 10VAC
I'm using a 2565hkm phone with the 50 pin male cord that came with it. Not sure if the phone company guys put it in the cabinet because it was broken, or perhaps had a special setup for it for in house use.
I found a bunch of 400Ds and put one of them in slot A1 and wired up quadrant A1
Here are the problems I'm running into:
1. I hooked up the first quadran.t WB to GW are punched down on rows 2-8, the Ring and Tip from my phone line are on the upper left top two rows. (1A). I hooked up the YS and SY to rows 9 and 10. Bridging clips are in the factory default locations as mentioned in another thread I read on this forum about ringing problems.
I'm not getting any ring or flashing light when I call in on the line. I do hear a buzzing coming from what sounds like either inside of the power supply or the KSU that kinda sounds like a ring though.
2. When I pick up the phone I get a dial tone and the light on both the phone and the KSU turns on. When I press the keys on the phone the dial tone cuts out for a moment but it does not make any touch tone sounds.
3. My goal is to eventually make a break out box that will allow multiple phones to just be plugged in easily by an end user along with RJ11 jacks so that they can easily hook up phone lines. Not sure how to wire multiple phones to this system.
As far as the TT dial not breaking dial tone, swap tip & ring. Those old dial pads are polarity sensitive and won't work at all (or may make sickly sounds) when polarity is reversed. I'll have to look at a BSP for a 620 panel to figure out your ringing problem. Have you checked all the basics first? Ring gen is actually making 100+ volts at 30hz? Ring gen is making it from the power supply to the 620A2 panel? Interrupter starting when the line is ringing and interrupted ringing is making it to the panel?
it has been years but, i think ys/sy in the phone are connected to the set ringer. you may be trying to power the ringer with ten volts. if i remember correctly, the 10 v. buzzer inside the phone is on yo/oy. the flashing lamps are powered through a properly working interrupter. if the interrupter is running, it may have some dirty contacts inside.
Old age is creeping in on me.... I don't know how I missed this last night.
What line cards are you using, and what is your source of dial tone? Comcast box, Voip adapter, copper POTS line?
These cable company phone boxes and Voip adapters use metallic ringing, where the ringing voltage is applied between tip and ring. 400D cards are looking for grounded ringing, where ringing voltage is between ring and ground.
If you've got a 400D card that's pre-issue 15, you're going to have a no ring-up condition. Those cards only work with grounded ringing. Even my copper POTS line won't work with pre-15 D cards anymore. If you can get hold of an Issue 15 400D card, or an ITT 400E, or any of the later 400G/H cards, try that. Might be your issue.
As far as multiple phones into any 1A2 system, it can range from super simple to give-you-migraines- complicated. The easiest configuration is called a "square system", where all lines appear on all phones in the same configuration. With 1A2 this is pretty simple. The phones just go in parallel. Easiest way to accomplish that is with CPC adapters. This allows two phones or cables to be plugged into one cable. The "correct" way to connect multiple phones is to run all the 25 pair cables to a backboard with 66 blocks and cross connect them all. It sounds like you want something sort of portable and/or dummy proof. In this case, use the CPC adapters. They can still be found on the usual auction sites, along with pre-terminated lengths of 25 pair cable in lengths from a few feet to upwards of 100 feet.
If you want a system that isn't square, with different lines appearing on different phones, connecting them up isn't all that hard, but getting ringing working is trickier. You can forget about using common audible, no sense in having a phone ring on a line it doesn't have. Now you're in the territory of diode matrices and migraines.
I checked the output voltage on the power supply and it is producing 10VAC
You should have several voltages present:
A Battery -filtered DC for intercom talk paths- -24VDC B Battery -unfiltered DC for relays and line card circuitry- -24VDC Lamp Battery -AC for lamps and usually buzzers- 10VAC Ring Gen -AC for ringers- 105-120VAC 30HZ Buzzer -Some KSU's have this, some don't. Almost never used- 18VAC
Thanks for the replies, you really helped me out. I'm so happy that you guys responded with so much information and so quickly. Giving me the missing pieces of the puzzle. I'll be sure to post some pictures if I get it working. I'm using a cellular to POTS adapter made by Xlink. I'm guessing from what you're telling me that it may be the source of the no ring problem. My 400D cards were all scavenged from the same old SNET garage in Hartford, CT. I didn't even realize there were different versions. I'm really new to this . Mine are all 8's and 13's. I still have a few there that I haven't brought home yet, but I'll take a look to see if any of them are newer. If not I've seen some for sale pretty cheap on eBay.
I have some 415B KTUs, from what I gather they're used to make the phone dial a line as soon as it picks up. Any suggestions on fun projects I could do with them?
I have a bunch go 469A KTUs too. I guess they're some sort of lamp power amplifiers. How do they work? Do you put them in any KSU slot for more power for the entire system? How many lamps can a 620A2 run without any help?
I can see where the battery voltage, and the 10VAC are on the power supply, but I don't see a location to test the 105 - 120VAC 30HZ for the ring voltage, can you give help me?
Going to try another phone to see if that's the cause of the no dial tone issue. Pretty sure my ring and tip are correct, at least at the KSU, haven't checked inside of the phone yet.
Fuses are OK for now. I broke two of the brown 70H fuses and swapped them out TEMPORARILY with some 70As from the bottom of the KSU. I found some 70Hs on eBay and they're on their way.
Oh, I have the power supply grounded with a 12 gauge wire from the screw on the power supply to a cold water pipe above my workbench. Would that be acceptable?
Oh yeah, and going for a "square system" as you put it. CPC seems like what I'm looking for for this setup. The 66 blocks are the right way of doing it, but they're not "user friendly" or "portable" enough for the project I have in mind.
The ring generator terminals are usually under a little plastic guard or cardboard flap to keep nosy fingers out.
There is a modification to earlier 400D cards to make them ring on modern (metallic) circuits. If you're handy with a soldering iron, PM me for info on that.
My preference is either 400D ISS15, or ITT400E. I think (personal opinion here) the later Western Electric cards -especially the 400H- suck.
More often than not the polarity coming out of these fake phone line gizmos is backwards. I don't know why, it just seems really common in my experience. Try reversing them before you condemn the phone. If the TT dial still won't work, open up the phone and clean all the little contacts around the outside of the TT pad, and the ones on the bottom of it under the plastic cover. Those things are nearly indestructible. I've only ever had one go out of tune, and I twiddled the slugs in the coils on the back and got it right. Don't mess with those unless it is making tones and they aren't recognized. I wonder if the gizmo you're using has enough loop current to operate an older TT dial......
If you're only source of dial tone is the cell phone to pots adapter, that ground isn't as critical. I'm almost 99% sure the non-ringing is a result of those older 400D cards.
Like I said before, I have an honest-to-betsy copper line straight from the phone company central office (I asked a tech- nothing but a cross box between me and the CO) and my earlier 400D cards won't ring up. They used to, then one day they didn't. Checked my grounds, checked polarity, checked my sanity even. Something changed and those earlier cards just won't ring up. I put in the ISS15's and presto. I was back in business. They work fine with my grandstream VOIP adapters and my Obihai VOIP adapters, too.
Oh, I have the power supply grounded with a 12 gauge wire from the screw on the power supply to a cold water pipe above my workbench. Would that be acceptable?
As long as it's copper all the way to where it ties into the water supply. If there's a meter on it jumper around the meter.
No. A megger is the only real way to test a ground, which no one has or does anymore. An ohm meter from a known ground source like power ground (not neutral) to your ground source should have close to zero ohms. The correct way to do it is to bond all grounds so you have no difference in potential. You probably don't have to be all that critical in your test bench environment, but I'd still make sure my ground is good and bond if possible.
In your example you can take the positive side of you meter to the hot side of a power outlet and any ground no matter how slight will give you a good voltage reading, so that is definitely not a good test.
Historically, the home’s copper water pipe system provided a safe ground for the home’s electrical system. The plumbing system was grounded because its metal pipes extended a long way underground. However these days the increased use of polyvinyl chloride, or PVC, pipes throughout home plumbing systems displaced the use of copper and other metals enough that water lines were no longer reliable grounds for electrical system.
A secondary electrode is a length of metal, typically 8 to 10 feet, driven into the ground. When correctly installed, only enough of the rod remains above ground for attachment to a heavy gauge wire. The other end of that wire attaches to the home’s electrical system and bonds to the plumbing system. Standard building codes accept steel conduit, steel rods and copper-clad steel as grounding electrodes. These devices are also called secondary electrodes, since some electricians still ground electrical systems to the home’s plumbing. Electrical codes require the use of a second electrode in these instances.
At my old home (built 1935) the electrical panel was not grounded. However, there was a 14 gauge copper wire connected from the Neutral Bus Bar to a galvanized cold water pipe. When we replaced all the old corroding galvanized pipe with Pex piping it was time to pound in an electrode.
The point is the ground you have today may not be a valid ground tomorrow.
At my old home (built 1935) the electrical panel was not grounded. However, there was a 14 gauge copper wire connected from the Neutral Bus Bar to a galvanized cold water pipe. When we replaced all the old corroding galvanized pipe with Pex piping it was time to pound in an electrode.
The point is the ground you have today may not be a valid ground tomorrow.
I forgot to add the reason we changed to Pex piping was due to a serious water leak about one foot from the entry point into the basement. Rotor-Router came out and cut through the concrete path and discovered that the piping that connect from the water meter to the hose had been changed somewhere and it was Swing Pipe.
For those that don't know Swing Pipe is more commonly known as "Funny Pipe" and used for irrigation.
So basically the use of the Cold Water pipe as a Grounding source was insufficient. As the saying goes: "You don't know, what you don't know."
As far as grounding; These are all valid points, and on a permanently installed system with real CO lines, cabling running through walls, and sets placed all over house/business, I would 100% agree. Having a good ground is both essential and mandatory. However... That is not the problem the OP is having. I've tested plenty of 1A2 gear, including a 620/620A2 panel on my kitchen counter with zero grounding and it worked just fine. No, I would never in my right mind leave a system like that, but for testing purposes, the world isn't going to end. He has a source of dial tone coming from a cell phone to POTS adapter. It definitely isn't using grounded ringing. Having it grounded, while not a bad thing, is not going to solve his problem. His problem is the only line cards he has are Weco 400D of issue 8 and 13, both of which will ONLY respond to grounded ringing. He needs a card that will respond to ringing current that is across tip and ring, like an issue 15 400D, or any of the later cards like 400G or H, or the ITT 400E. If that doesn't make it ring, I'll eat my hat.
As far as water pipes; I've run into the same thing where the city/town has actually used that black irrigation type pipe as service line into a house. Two people I do work for both have that. They're both in the same town, and both houses are of similar age. The houses pre-date the municipal water supply, and originally had wells. Sometime in the mid 70's the town ran water mains and tied in the houses with that crappy pipe. They have grounds running to the copper pipe within the house because you have to bond it to ground, but it isn't a ground in itself. At least in NH, that's code. If the house has copper or metal water piping, it must be bonded to the electrical ground. This way should a pipe ever become energized, it would (in theory) pop the fuse or breaker of the circuit energizing it. The requirement for building grounds is from the meter box a grounding conductor of proper size must be run down through an inter-system bonding terminal and into the ground to two 10' copper plated electrodes driven in not less than 6 feet apart. They must be completely in the ground. You're expected to trench to them and make the bond in the trench, then once inspected by both the city inspector and the power company, you can bury it and they'll seal up the meter box and turn on the juice. It sounds like more of a hassle than it is. They're pretty good about all being there at the same time to do the inspection, and when I say trench, I use the term loosely. It only has to be under the surface so it isn't a tripping hazard. A few inches is generally ok unless its in a high traffic area.
Lots of information on grounds. To let you guys know I solved both the touch tone issue (RP on the line) and the no ring issue by Modifying the cards using the document Chris Sent me. Excellent that it worked considering I didn't want to spend any money playing around with this stuff (yet) and have about 20 obsolete 400D cards all either issue 13 or issue 8. Looks like they'll get some more life out of them yet.
I remember a time I had to do some electrical work at work. Some hacker installed a sub panel on an outside storage building and not only didn't run a ground to the box from the main, he didn't install a ground rod either. Guess he was from the "it turn on don't it?" school of electrical. Ended up putting one of those 8' copper clad iron rods into the ground to fix it. Not easy to do in NE where you hit a rock ever 2'.
I found an old Morse 202 reel to reel at the electronic recycling drop off today. I've never found one anywhere before and oddly enough one of my buddies at the bar was asking about getting one last night. Spent most of the morning fixing it up, off topic I know, but I just love old electronics. Anyway since I'm running out of time today I'll post some picture of the 620A2 another time.
Update on the ringing. While the light flashes the phone still doesn't ring. Think I have a bad power supply. I removed the plastic cover that covered up AC1 and AC2. They show 117VAC, the out leads show 0 volts (blue wires) Looks like it goes into a 117 converter that is supposed to change it from 60HZ to 30HZ. Tried running wires from the output directly to the YS SL pair inside of the phone and it wouldn't ring. Is it common for these converters to go bad?
It happens. If you're only using the one phone line, just strap tip and ring to the yellow/slate leads going to the phone. Be sure to disconnect the jumpers connecting them to CA. Doubtful the cell to pots converter will have enough oomph to ring that old bell, but who knows.
I have some small ringing generators that convert 12 or 24 volts to 70v at 20hz. I wouldn't try to ring 4 phones with one, but it might ring one or two. I'll see if I can find one online....
I have the system mostly together now. Decided to skip adding the MOH and the 415Bs for now. Made a youtube video if you want to check it out. Thanks for all your help guys.
. Mine are all 8's and 13's. I still have a few there that I haven't brought home yet, but I'll take a look to see if any of them are newer. If not I've seen some for sale pretty cheap on eBay. 