sundance-communications.com/forum Forums General General Telephone & Systems Information Electricians runnin cable again!

Yep, Gene, all they know is 14/2, 12/3, 6/3, CAT5, etc. Of course, it's 8 conductor, not four pair using their lingo. It's always the "loose or tight stuff" using their terminology. They understand the buzz word "CAT5", but have absolutely no clue what that means. It's just that "blue wire", since the industry has even decided to color-code Romex (NM-B) cable. Yep, in order to make it easier for them to know what they are doing, and in order for the inspectors to have the same convenience, it's now white for 14 gauge cable, yellow for 12, orange for 10 and black for everything larger. Pretty pathetic in my opinion. It's like dragging out coloring crayons in high school.

Installation standards are localized to the (AHJ or inspector) for power wiring, yet the national standards that are supposed to be in place for TIA/EIA, ANSI or BICSI standards are never followed by the AHJ. We have standards that nobody enforces except ourselves.

I thought it would not be a good idea for me to get into this subject. Now I know it's true. Well, it's out now, so here goes:

Hal and I, having worked in the electrical contracting businesses, know what a pile of crap this whole thing is. It's all being driven by the electrical contractors themselves and the manufacturers of electrical hardware.

Around here, the very people who sit on the local county and city electrical boards are electrical contractors themselves. I am sure that this is the case everywhere, because the politicians have no clue where to start in controlling it. Talk about a classic case of the fox guarding the hen house!

Do you see ICC, Ortronics, Siemon or Suttle manufacturing 20 amp duplex receptacles? Of course not, nor are they interested in doing so.

Do you see Leviton, Hubbell, Paas & Seymore or Cooper (Eagle) making telecom hardware? The answer is not just yes, but HELL YES and the arcitects and building designers are not only specifying these brands, they are demanding them.

Of course, since the electricians work with Leviton or Eagle receptacles and switches all the time, they figure that if it is a product in their packaging, that can be picked up at the supply house, and needs to be wired, they can make it happen.

The manufacturers of these home structured wiring panels were designed for electrical contractors, using input from electrical contractors. They designed them based upon the typical knowledge levels of electrical contractors, as in "idiot proof". True, many telecomm manufacturers starting making them as well, but it was only in response to demand from the competition. What a waste.

I can't tell you how many "no-name" modules we have pulled out and simply spliced cables to bypass them because replacement modules can't be found! I still have an IBM-branded one in my office that was installed by "Verizon" in a new home that failed within three months. Here it comes: The customer called Verizon and guess what? "It mus be sumpin in deah quip-mint since the line tess okay!" Gee, what a surprise.

I have actually seen 8 conductor thermostat wire used for "CAT5" installations before. How, you ask? It was a friend of mine from back in my electrician days looking for help. He called wanting to know the trick for getting the wires from "eight conductor" cable to fit into the slots on the jacks! Yep, he was stripping and trying to force the 18 gauge bare wire into the jack modules in a structured wiring panel as well! After getting frustrated, and the reason for calling me, was to ask if he could just use wire nuts and splice on a short piece of "RJ11" wire (quad), since "it fits better in those tiny jacks".

After the firm scolding I gave him, he promised that he will never attempt this stuff again. In his words, "all them pinks, beiges and purples, how do y'all know where they all go?"

There's your sign.

I think it's worth mentioning here also that the driving force behind all this is the IBEW. Several years ago they began the push with a typical union mantra "if we don't get in there now and take over we are going to lose the work". That's when they encouraged their manufacturing buddies and in turn the electrical supply houses, mostly all union to produce and stock telecom and data products.

So, as Ed says we have all the names electricians are familiar with manufacturing this stuff and its all displayed in front of them at the supply house.

Problem is, it's one thing to have access to this stuff, quite another to actually know what to do with it.

-Hal

Slightly different problem (sort of), but the national DIY hardware/home stores are another supportive example of that statement.

I agree with all the above --- supply houses, electrical manufacturer's, now big box DIY places, even WallyWorld, having all the junk.

Now, in this small, hick, burg, everyone knows each other. I have no problem with "sparkie" running wiring for residental smart houses --- don't have many and I DON'T do residential.

As for "sparkie" doing business Cat wiring, I recommend a local "sparkie" who has sent his people to certification on CAT and F O. He is usually doing the high volt, anyway.

Same goes for the CG. I have an "associate" agreement with a CG group, no problem --- they know they don't know --- I refer the wiring to "sparkie" --- the CG has me set up the DSL to pass off to them --- everyone makes a buck and the customer gets a good job.

But in the big, real, world you guys have to function in, I feel for you. No union, no license, no inspection, no permits, no nothing around here UNLESS you go looking for it.

:thumb:

KLD

I'm going to step out on a limb and say I'll probably catch flack for this, but after the Avaya strike thread I'm ready.

Hal I disagree that the unions are causing this and here is why. If it were union driven it would only be in the closed shop states, but it's not. Most of the states with the low voltage requirements are "right to work states". Which tells me the industry (electrical) is driving the changes, not the unions. I grant you that in closed shop states the unions have the right and do keep non-union help out and in those states they probably wouldn't oppose a licensing law, but to say the unions are the driving force I believe is not correct. OK I'm ready.

I knew I was touching on a sore subject when I posted originally. Around here there aren't many inspections taking place on low voltage installations. The reason for that is that low voltage is low voltage. If it is a fubar, no one dies and buildings don't burn or collapse. I'm on the fence as far as having an inspector check LV installs for an installation that comes close to a logical code. It would make me feel better if an inspection required sparkie to replace an install such as the one that started this posting and do it correct. If that ever happened I would be more than happy (for a small fee)(but not too small) to consult with sparkie on how to do it right. When all of us run across these fubars we blow off steam, like I have done, with each other. If I had an official to turn to I would.

I'm gonna contact the head dude of the particular EC and see if there is a need for me in his rolodex. If he blows me off I have no where to go.
:bang:

Actually, GRider, the inspections are more for fire saftey than anything. It's about proper firestopping, using proper cable, proper support, those kinds of things. They don't ever actually inspect jacks or terminations because the inspectors wouldn't even know what they are looking at.

In some jurisdictions, low voltage permits are actually building permits, not electrical.

The bottom line is that it's all about the money. Half of the time, the inspectors don't even show up for us. We hear "I have seen your work and I trust that you did it correctly". Then if that's the case, why do I still have to pay for a permit?

Hal I disagree that the unions are causing this and here is why.

Bill, if you got any of the electrical trade publications it was right there in print. "If we don't get in there now and take over we are going to lose the work" is not something I made up. It may not be verbatum but that is pretty close to what was said.

Then of course, if union contractors are doing this work and the materials are available for all, even non-union contractors are going to jump on the bandwagon.

In case you are wondering what the latest IBEW push is it's productivity. No more "playing hide and seek for a thousand a week" as a IBEW friend used to say. The IBEW realizes that to be competitive with the non-union sector they at least have to do a days work for a days pay.

-Hal

I work in a closed shop state . The electrican's are all union our cabling contractors are not for the most part . There is no job friction that I have seen . The only exception is working in San Francisco . All contractors must be union or there will be a work shutdown . Which is ok because you know that from the get go . My 2 cents .

As a post note , the one job the electricans did wire for us , about 700 drops was AFU . We had to correct it ourselfs . They where not on site on cut weekend !

Hal,

This is not the first time the electrical contractors have tried to envelop the voice and data wiring. In 1994 the president of NECA was the owner of the company I was subbed under. His editorial in the NECA magazine was to make sure every union shop had a low volt (or at least a voice and data)division.

BUT ---- he wanted to run it like an electrical division ---- he couldn't understand things moved faster and it was more technically demanding than running conduit and pulling wire.

This editorial was the result of a "Low Volt" contractor bidding all the wiring (high and low) on a gov't contranct and subbing out the high volt. Turn about was NOT a good feeling for these IBEW guys.

Just my .02 , again.

KLD