sundance-communications.com/forum Forums Wiring - Telecom Carriers - Trunks & Services T1's, CSU's and DSU's T1 to Jack Distance

Hi Guys,

I have AT&T installing a T1 (PRI) for customer. The original install was done by a tech who just slammed it in and left without telling anyone he came. It was installed in the MPOE and the customer is on the 8th floor about 700 ft away. I spoke to the AT&T test board who told me the distance was to great to work with a good consistent signal, so I requested AT&T to move the Shelf and smart card. It's been 8 months now (my last AT&T T1 install took them over 2 years and they still botched it) and they still haven't found anyone who knows how to do this. They know how to install a jack (I can do that) but that's it. One problem is terminology- the terms used by different techs have been- "Shelf, Smart Card, NI card" Which is correct? I believe NI and smart card are the same and they plug into a shelf. Is this correct?

Now after 8 months the latest tech says that no one can move this card. It goes in the MPOE even if customer is a mile away. If the distance is too great, this is the customer's problem and customer needs to purchase a repeater or signal booster. This is not the same phone company I worked for. Does anyone know the distance limitation between the smart card and customer jack and if this smart card (or whatever the correct term is) can be moved?

Thank you

655 feet maximum with proper LBO settings on the card.

Yes, it can be moved by the provider of the circuit by just extending the street side pair(s) via house cable to the location. They just don't want to do that because it limits their access to it.

Ed is right on the money for proper distance limitation for T-1/PRI.
But I will go on to say this, a little over a year ago we extended one that was a little over 1400ft (Yes 1400ft). And it has worked like a charm from day one without any problems.
So you may want to do some testing and see what happens.

Jjimm,
If you could imagine this the telco will do it if you order it and pay them… It’s just a simple IW (inside wiring) request. Not a clue what at&t chares in your area but I’d be sure it’s expensive.

Ed’s number of 655ft is spot on but if I were you, I’d give Mike’s suggestion a try first as well. I’ve seen those NI cards reach way beyond their expected reach more than once. You’d just need to be sure LBO (line build out) is set to the max.

Your thinking is correct… but those terms and many others are often used interchangeably.

JJimm -

I'm with the guys here. You might be able to pull this out. Set the LBO to Max and then the install: Run two shielded Cat 3 cables (one for xmit, one for rcv) from the Smart jack and terminate them on an RJ48x. Then test the circuit with a T-Berd or Sunset. Do a thorough test (5 minutes of all 1's, 15 minutes of all 0's, 15 minutes of 3-24 and then 24 hours of QRS. If you get less then 5 errors I would say you'd be good to go.

If it doesn't work, then you're going to have get a repeater - but worry about that if and when you have to.

Sam

Thanks guys. I realise it might work -most times, but, 1. it's a gamble, 2. customer wants to be assured of constant good service (at least feel like he has this)3. after all the hassle with AT&T about this it would be better business for me to just move it, and 4, customer is a lawyer and is irate at AT&T.
I have a new sub who is PRI experienced. If he knows how, is there any legal reason why we can't just move it ourselves? If absolutely necessary I can probably get a release from AT&t. I'm sure they would be glad to get customer off their back.

Yeah, that’s not a legal maneuver. The NCTE (network channel terminating equipment, commonly called the smart jack) is telco property and serves as the demarcation point for the regulated service. We can’t advise you to move it.

If I were in your position I’d get a LoA (letter of agency) from your customer and put in a service order yourself with at&t to request a demarc move with inside wiring charges approved, to have the point of demarcation moved to inside your customers suite. Could be pricey but would be the best and most reliable way.

That was the official answer… Sometimes smart jacks do unexplainably move, but you now know that’s an illegal solution.

I wouldn't advise it either. Your best bet is to extend the customer output via pairs in two separate cables (one for transmit and one for receive). If using existing house cable, use pairs in separate binders. This will allow you to get more distance and reliability.

AT&T VP just called to cover his *ss and said "AT&T only provides the NI at the MPOE. From there it is the customer's responsibility no matter what the distance." He had no grasp of how this circuit works and was repeating what someone had told him.
I offered to have my tech with T1 expertise move the card but want a release so that AT&T still supports the circuit, He said "No problem". I don't trust them. Customer is going to have to take his chances. It's unfortunate customers reduced to taking what they can get from AT&T, but the company has lost most of it's trained professionals.
Thanks for al the help.

For anything over 655 ft., and for something that is not a gamble, I would install T-1 extender/repeater. I have a customer that have been using some with no problems on 4 circuits in a call center that were about 1500 ft from at&t's MPOE. We get ours from Data Comm for Business. www.dcbnet.com