I am an environmental consultant. I have a client with an old, probably defunct telephone panel board with numerous 1A2 400D KTU cards.
My issue is that a green colored liquid is leaking (very slowly) from the cards and we have been unable to identify its source or the exact make-up of the liquid.
Any help or insight would be greatly appreciated.
Ideally an MSDS of the source liquid would be optimal, but at this point I'll take any info I can get.
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From all the cards? I can't think of any liquid of any kind in these cards. Are you sure it's not just moisture and corrosion? Copper, moisture and presence of battery cause a green looking gunk.
we are looking into that and not coming up with a moisture source. that may be the way to go, potentially analyzing a bulk sample for Cu to see if it is the primary constituent, aside from water.
I also have a photo. Let me see if I can attach it.
I'm not good with the picture thing. I know you have to have a host and link it but that's about all I know. I sure someone will help out in a bit if not I'll see if I can get someone to help ya.
Is it coming from a particular part of the card? those things are nothing but relays, resisters, diodes, and capacitors that's about it, might be a transistor or two.
env guy If you want to send the pic to me or link address I'll get it posted for you. For the liquid it could be a leaky capacitor if there is a large electrolytic on the board it would most likily be the power supply filter cap.
Merritt, The 400 series KTUs are all dry caps, there is nothing I can think of that would contain a liquid unless there has been a liquid / high humidity issue (leaky roof, wet mop, broken water pipe, you know the drill). Green would normally mean corrosion due to induced moisture and battery.
Green Jello? I prefer lime.
Is this KSU in a high heat or corrosive area? Basically the board is no different than any computer board of that vintage and the components are generically the same.
Join, it's free. Then upload your picture .jpg format is the usual. Copy (highlight then do ctr+C) the URL they give you. Come back here and paste it into your post (ctr+V). Easy.
-Hal
CALIFORNIA PROPOSITION 65 WARNING: Some comments made by me are known to the State of California to cause irreversible brain damage and serious mental disorders leading to confinement.
Oh, forgot your problem. Those original WE 400D KTU cards were almost made to mil spec. They weren't fiberglass PC boards as we know them and probably could be submerged and still work. I have never seen anything that would leak or even any exposed copper that could corrode, though I have seen the gold plated edge connector pins turn green. Has to be from something external but I would be interested in seeing a picture.
-Hal
CALIFORNIA PROPOSITION 65 WARNING: Some comments made by me are known to the State of California to cause irreversible brain damage and serious mental disorders leading to confinement.
Your friend has corrison issues like justbill stated ! Find the source , remove the power from the ksu , go to an eletronics store buy some spray on contact cleaner and cross your fingers . It may take serval cans an applications .By the way what is MSDS ? :shrug:
The green "Goo" is dripping from the far left of the bar code sticker on the bottom of the shelf, in between the 5th. and 6th. top fuses I think. And directly above the top 3rd. fuse if my Wal-mart specs are seing things the right way.
Maybe there is or was a power supply mounted above this equipment that had batteries or just a leaking power supply. It did not have to be directly above the equipment either, the fluid could drip down onto and flow down the jumper wires and onto the equipment below.
I see a little on the m1/25 but none on the cards . Maybe I need stronger reading glasses ! :shrug: . my guess is a leaky sewer pipe or fire sprinkler pipe . Gotta be coming from overhead!
See what you're talking about TexasTechnician. Hard to say by pic. I don't remember what the dielectric was in the capacitors, but I'm sure it wasn't an oil. I really don't think he needs to call in the EPA or anyone..uuuh maybe call a tech?
I would touch the goo with a tool and see if it is sticky or pliable. Had MANY of those old 400 series cards that used a green encapsulent over the face of the cards that had runs that closely resembled a leaking component. It was used as a moisture proofing for the boards. If it is hard as a rock it's probably the coating.
Good catch Ken. I didn't see the drips on the panel only on the far right card breaking up the red border. After your info and reviewing with one eye shut and my beer put put away I see the mysterious green goo. I notice it is on the same place on the panel beneath apparently the same model card. HMMMMMMM.
Couldn't hurt to pull the card and take a look at it.
-Hal
CALIFORNIA PROPOSITION 65 WARNING: Some comments made by me are known to the State of California to cause irreversible brain damage and serious mental disorders leading to confinement.
Leakage from older electronic components is not that uncommon, I have seen it on 1A2 cards, and cards from several switches. This is normally a sticky goo that is almost impossible to clean up. If the equipment is still in service the best thing is to replace the cards that are leaking. If they are still working they will fail.
We are sure that the panel is not in use, and I do not think there is any planned use for the equipment. The overiding issue is - " is the green liquid hazardous in some way, relative to personal exposure or disposal."
Since no one at the location knows what it is, they prefer to figure it out (if possible) instead of assuming it to be "safe".
That leaves me, a non-telphone tech person and about the same age as the equipment, to see what I can come up with. It is obvious that many of you are extremely familiar with the components and I appreciate the feedback.
I think it is soap from an upstairs bathroom. Sliding down the plumbing inside the wall till it found an opening in the phone room, worked its way through the back plane and out the front of the card. Scrape it off, put it in a cup of water and shake it, or give it to someone else to shake if you so choose.
After all your research and hard work, I'll bet you find that "goo" to be safer to touch, smell and probably eat then it is to follow a bus down main street and sniff the fumes. Mark
Ok, now worry. It just dawned on me that the little metal 'reed' relay sometimes had MERCURY wetted contacts! That's the metal can about 1-3/4 inches log and 3/8 inch square on the rear half of the board. On the blue front 400D card, it's the "animal" with the white 'Y' stenciled over the part number.
When I was young, I was Liberal. As I aged and wised up, I became Conservative. Now that I'm old, I have settled on Curmudgeon.
I was just going to point that out about the reed relay. It was always marked "pressurized-do not open". I think that pressure was the only safety hazard though, as in the risk of the thing blowing glass all over you if you tried to pry it open. I learned the hard way on one when I was a kid and I assure you, there was no green goo in it, just a coil of wire surrounding a glass tube containing two sets of reed contacts.
The 400D cards were Mil-Spec and I doubt very seriously that there is anything to be concerned over. I must agree with most people here that the goo is coming from an outside source, such as a water leak or a concentration of humidity in the area.
We finally had the green liquid analyzed by a lab, nothing hazardous detected. No PCB's or heavy metals. So, the liquid will remain a non-hazardous mystery.
Thanks again for all the feedback and posts.
I will definitely keep this site bookmarked for future telecommunications issues.
I've noticed the same green goo on other 1A2 systems, usually on or under the power supply with no other apparent sources. It's a thick liquid, probably from a capacitor. I wouldn't eat it, but it's nothing to worry about in a non-functioning system.
It looks like your power supply is directly over the goo, so that's probably the source.
Joe --- No trees were harmed as a result of this posting; however, many electrons were severely inconvenienced.
I too have a system with 400D cards with "green goo." It seems to be coming from a rectangular box labeled Western Electric 327A Delta = 72K. Is this the reed relay? The green goo is extremely viscous, almost like melted plastic. My concern is the same as env guy as my newly pregnant wife was the first to discover the goo after having unknowingly come in contact with it and having had it on her skin for ~30 minutes. Any help or insight would be greatly appreciated.
Since he never identified the source of the goo, in the event that it's from a different component, any chance you know what the part labeled "Western Electric 327A Delta = 72K" is? The delta symbol is actually an upside down Delta.
Since this thread is over two years old, it's highly unlikely that we have any manner in which to receive feedback from the original poster. In the future, it would be best if you start a new thread using the "post a new topic" feature at the upper-right hand corner of this page.
I can tell you that 327A is the nomenclature for the actual reed relay component and the 72K is the date/period of manufacture (1972 was the year).
Upon reviewing other cards of similar design, I found some of a later date of manufacture where this reed relay was marked 327L, so I'd guess that the Delta was meant to signify that the relay's part number was actually 327D.
There are no potted components on these cards except for whatever "mystery" component may reside within this reed relay. Since they were marked "Contents under pressure-do not open", most people took heed to this warning and never bothered to experiment.
From the description, it really seems like the "green goo" might indeed be a potting compound that liquifies, as WE apparently went to some efforts in later revisions to remove the compound. According to the docs the contacts are dry and sealed. Since it's a reed relay, typically the contacts are sealed in glass.
In case the above link describing the relay goes stale, I'm retyping what it states (not responsible for errors):
Code
.............................................................................................
: AUGUST 31, 1979 | NO. 327 TYPE RELAYS | :
: | (Card No. 2) | :
: ___________________|__________________________________________________|__________________ :
: :
: No. 327A, F & G: Non-adjustable relays consisting of No. 237E dry sealed contacts :
: housed within a double winding coil contained in a metal case. :
: Arranged for mounting on a printed wiring board. :
: The two reeds in the sealed contact will make contact (operate) and release :
: when either winding of the coil is energized, at the values specified. :
: :
: No. 327B, C, D, E, M & N: Similar to No. 327A except each is equipped with one winding :
: and four terminals. :
: :
: No. 327H: Same as No. 327A except potting compound is eliminated. :
: Not approved for general use. Approval must be obtained from the Apparatus :
: Applications group. :
: :
: No. 327J: Same as No. 327C except potting compound eliminated. :
: Not approved for general use. Approval must be obtained from the Apparatus :
: Applications group. :
: :
: No. 327K: Similar to No. 327G except has a trifilar winding with the third winding :
: shorted internally for low AC impedance. :
: Contain No. 237H dry sealed contacts. :
: :
: No. 327L: Similar to No. 327F except contain No. 237H dry sealed contacts. :
: :
: No. 327P & R: Similar to No. 327B except have minimum board to relay clearance :
: of 0.55 inch, a height above board of 0.68 inch, and an overall height :
: of 0.82 inch; instead of 0.02 inch, 0.064 inch and 0.78 inch, respectively. :
: :
: Property of the Western Electric Company, Incorporated Printed in U.S.A :
: :
:............................................................................................
Last edited by Greg Ercolano; 12/13/2205:38 PM. Reason: Changed link to be "clickable"
Followup: for the laffs (and for the Gipper), I decided to desolder a 327A / _72K from one of my 400D line cards.
This seemed to have the exact same type (327A) and same year (First quarter 1972, if I remember the WE dashed date codes correctly) relay as has been reported here and elsewhere. My 400D did not have the leaking problem.
But once I started de-soldering it (would not recommend, lol) apparently the heat caused the green goo to start squirting out of all 4 corners of the relay, as this sequence of photos shows:
Yep, there's yer problem. I love the sticky gooey detail in that second photo. As I wrote on Phil's 1A2 facebook group, it's like dissecting a frog with taffy for blood.
One thing I haven't figured out is why my goo is a light green. Everything I've seen so far, the goo is typically a dark green, similar to the dark green solder mask on the 400D card, which by the way also turns into sticky goo when heated.
Anyway, thought you all would be interested -- I did it so you don't have to. Would not recommend trying to repair these particular relays by de-soldering, unless you're prepared for a sticky, stinky gooey mess. Yuck!
Looks like the folks at the Connections Museum up in Seattle have also run into the green goo problem with most of their No. 5 crossbar switch's 316-type removable potted relays. Some interesting details in the video about those, the trouble the goo causes for unprotected relays beneath them, and their goo cleanup effort:
Connections Museum: Emergency Repair in the No. 5 Crossbar
I have quite a few 400 type KTUs as backup to my 1A2 system. Each KTU is bubble wrapped, and stored horizontal (as they would be installed). They are kept in an air conditioned area. I have found the same leaky green goo from a small percentage over the years, and it is easily removable with no apparent damage to the KTU. While I have other KTUs (e.g. Manual Intercom, Power Failure, Tie line, etc), the 400 D is the only one I have found the green leakage on.
I have quite a few 400 type KTUs as backup to my 1A2 system. Each KTU is bubble wrapped, and stored horizontal (as they would be installed). They are kept in an air conditioned area. I have found the same leaky green goo from a small percentage over the years, and it is easily removable with no apparent damage to the KTU. While I have other KTUs (e.g. Manual Intercom, Power Failure, Tie line, etc), the 400 D is the only one I have found the green leakage on.
Both this an one other ancient thread regarding “green goo” leaking on WECo 400D circuit boards questioning whether it is toxic or not.
At the time (1971-72), it was well known since it was causing major problems with 1A2 key system line cards (400D) as well as other circuit packs used in some PBXs in the Bell System.
Bell Labs performed an in depth investigation that revealed major problems with the silicon based potting compounds (“green goo”). Hopefully I will be able to figure out how to attach a jpeg of a page from a 1972 engineering bulletin, since it will explain further regarding some of the problems associated with this material. [img]https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ivmMCbwL6xHN_oUWI2C5c2qeq7c04XPY/view?usp=sharing[/img]
I wonder if you get some 4" diameter heat shrink tubing. And make it short enough not to cover the handle and pins of the KTU. If that would help to prevent the green goo leaking onto any equipment. .
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